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RDQ - 2.2.16 Brexit
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How would you vote in the referendum if it were held now?
Stay in
64%
 64%  [ 24 ]
Leave
27%
 27%  [ 10 ]
Undecided
8%
 8%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 37

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Michael
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:39 pm    Post subject: RDQ - 2.2.16 Brexit  Reply with quote

So, with the reforms adding up to not a great deal, how would you vote based on the current offer?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate the new word 'Brexit'.
The sooner we're all done with whatever happens the better and people can stop saying that.  
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stay in.

Another vote for banning of made up words like Brexit and Grexit.  Fucking awful.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stay in. The positives far outweigh the negatives, and presumably the "leave" campaign will be based purely on lies and racism as it was in Scotland. With that vote, this is the second total waste of time and money, and will whip up sentiment on both sides, and its totally unnecessary. I suspect Cameron realises now that he did not need to make this offer to win the election, but who should we blame for that - the pollsters?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alf McQueef wrote:
....and presumably the "leave" campaign will be based purely on lies and racism as it was in Scotland.


I didn't hear any racism from anyone I was talking to?

Where did you hear it?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in the undecided camp.

We have a family home in France and nothing would change if we left the EU. Theres no threat to jobs in the UK from leaving the EU and no benefit of trade within the EU. I'm interested to hear peoples views on why they think some sort of apocalyptic disaster will befit us when/if we go.

Its sad that any opposing view to staying in is seen as negative, racist and drums up images of little Englanders from Eastbourne
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:

Its sad that any opposing view to staying in is seen as negative, racist and drums up images of little Englanders from Eastbourne


This is true. I'm also undecided having yet to find a convincing argument in either in or out.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stay in beyond any shadow of any doubt.

"In" is the status quo. Ergo it does not need a convincing argument to be formulated in its favour. "Out" represents the change. Therefore it does need an absolutely watertight argument (of which there has been conspicuously little sign) otherwise we are all just taking a massive leap into the unknown just because we feel like it.

There are many things worth doing harmlessly "just because". Leaving Europe is not one of them.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
Nice Guy Eddie wrote:

Its sad that any opposing view to staying in is seen as negative, racist and drums up images of little Englanders from Eastbourne


This is true. I'm also undecided having yet to find a convincing argument in either in or out.


Me also. I was firmly in the stay in camp - maybe I was influenced by the fearmongers - but I'm edging towards a vote for leaving.

There will be no big apocalypse if we leave, I will still love Europe and the Europeans, but I think we're on divergent paths now. I can't see Europe reforming itself and if we stay in we're one small voice among 27, with minimal influence, leave and we're in a position to sail our own path.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trade issue is one that always cuts both ways: "they" need to sell "us" stuff (and let's face it, the UK are the buying any-kind-of-overpriced-shit kings of the EU!) and "we" need to sell "them" stuff too.

Most people will point to the framework of politics that Brussels points us towards, which we are bound to comply with (freedom of movement, work, benefits, rights etc.) which stem from the idea of there being a generalist European expectation of a way of life. The UK has various concessions on these already and most EU countries retain taxation and budget control (not Greece when they're fucked).

One could argue that it hasn't harmed Switzerland being out of the EU and after the last (current) currency horror high-populace countries like the UK, Czech and Hungary were glad to be out of the single currency and retain control of their currency.

I'm afraid unless there are published and admitted plans to make the EU a single country made of various states but with a single language, currency, controlling bank, stock market, legal system, driving on the wrong side of the road, counting unemployment across the whole EU, armed forces etc. etc. then this idea of in or out doesn't matter. What we need to do is interpret the EU dictats in Parliament and then publish the laws as they apply in the UK (this is what we're supposed to do) then have them accepted by the EU and negate the ability to claim to a higher EU court as they have already ratified our interpretation.

Anyone that has been to mainland Europe knows that this is pretty much how the rest of Europe treats the EU - the UK just act like twats to try to curry favour with our voters back home who want to know that our politicians are doing everything to retain our "sovereignty", something that is very diluted in the modern world where I can be in mainland China by breakfast tomorrow.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing Teatray wrote:
Stay in beyond any shadow of any doubt.

"In" is the status quo. Ergo it does not need a convincing argument to be formulated in its favour. "Out" represents the change. Therefore it does need an absolutely watertight argument (of which there has been conspicuously little sign) otherwise we are all just taking a massive leap into the unknown just because we feel like it.

There are many things worth doing harmlessly "just because". Leaving Europe is not one of them.


I would argue that voting to stay in represents a massive leap into the unknown as we just don't know how this huge bureaucratic, undemocratic behemoth is going to react to the crisis facing it and we seem helpless to protect ourselves.

On the other hand if man had not been prepared to leap into the unknown every now and then we'd not have achieved half of what we have. Fear is never a good reason for maintaining the status quo (whatever happened to them anyway?).
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Sacamano wrote:
if we stay in we're one small voice among 27, with minimal influence, leave and we're in a position to sail our own path.


This whole "free to sail our own path" thing is, in my view, simply muddle-headed. That's just not the way international trading and political relationships work these days.

People love to quote the examples of Norway and Switzerland, but firstly those are tiny economies (and populations) compared to ours, and secondly Norway and Switzerland end up being bound by laws promulgated by the EU in order to gain access to the European single market, yet have no voice (let alone a small one) at the table when those rules are being set. Europe is our biggest trading partner. That's not going to change any time soon so striking off on our own is at the very best a rather quixotic thing to do.

We already aren't part of the Euro. That is a good thing and we are hardly the only ones, so it's not going to change. We actually have a pretty big voice in Europe no matter what the Swivel-eyed Lunatics on the Tory backbenches think. If we did not, Merkel et al would not be tying themselves in knots trying to prevent us leaving. It's in nobody's best interests, apart from possibly France's (although I'm not really sure of that either). Britain's role in Europe has always been to act as a the sole European member state with the economic and political clout to counterbalance any wobbles in the Franco-German power play that lies at the heart of the whole thing.

Lastly, if the whole thing is going to collapse anyway under its own weight, then let it. If we are still a member at that point, I don't see it unduly harming us more than if we are not. However, if we flounce out early and then it collapses, we will provide the rest of Europe with the mother and father of all convenient scapegoats. The collapse of Europe will inevitably forever more be seen at "Britain's fault". Which would both be unfair and highly damaging.

So tell me...why the fuck would we do that to ourselves?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing Teatray wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
if we stay in we're one small voice among 27, with minimal influence, leave and we're in a position to sail our own path.


This whole "free to sail our own path" thing is, in my view, simply muddle-headed. That's just not the way international trading and political relationships work these days.

People love to quote the examples of Norway and Switzerland, but firstly those are tiny economies (and populations) compared to ours, and secondly Norway and Switzerland end up being bound by laws promulgated by the EU in order to gain access to the European single market, yet have no voice (let alone a small one) at the table when those rules are being set. Europe is our biggest trading partner. That's not going to change any time soon so striking off on our own is at the very best a rather quixotic thing to do.
?


Well, it's not muddle-headed, we just strike our own treaties like every other country that's not part of Europe does. It doesn't do them any harm and, in fact, enables them to strike more favourable terms becuase they can be tailored to our economic strength not the French, Germans, or Italians.

Your point about Norway and Switzerland (two countries not exactly banging on the door of Europe to be let in) is a good one - if small economies like theirs can strike very advantageous terms with Europe, imagine what we could achieve?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing Teatray wrote:
Stay in beyond any shadow of any doubt.

"In" is the status quo. Ergo it does not need a convincing argument to be formulated in its favour. "Out" represents the change. Therefore it does need an absolutely watertight argument (of which there has been conspicuously little sign) otherwise we are all just taking a massive leap into the unknown just because we feel like it.

There are many things worth doing harmlessly "just because". Leaving Europe is not one of them.


Totally agree, and with your follow-up post above.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
if we stay in we're one small voice among 27, with minimal influence, leave and we're in a position to sail our own path.


This whole "free to sail our own path" thing is, in my view, simply muddle-headed. That's just not the way international trading and political relationships work these days.

People love to quote the examples of Norway and Switzerland, but firstly those are tiny economies (and populations) compared to ours, and secondly Norway and Switzerland end up being bound by laws promulgated by the EU in order to gain access to the European single market, yet have no voice (let alone a small one) at the table when those rules are being set. Europe is our biggest trading partner. That's not going to change any time soon so striking off on our own is at the very best a rather quixotic thing to do.
?


Well, it's not muddle-headed, we just strike our own treaties like every other country that's not part of Europe does. It doesn't do them any harm and, in fact, enables them to strike more favourable terms becuase they can be tailored to our economic strength not the French, Germans, or Italians.

Your point about Norway and Switzerland (two countries not exactly banging on the door of Europe to be let in) is a good one - if small economies like theirs can strike very advantageous terms with Europe, imagine what we could achieve?


What advantageous terms would those be?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing Teatray wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
if we stay in we're one small voice among 27, with minimal influence, leave and we're in a position to sail our own path.


This whole "free to sail our own path" thing is, in my view, simply muddle-headed. That's just not the way international trading and political relationships work these days.

People love to quote the examples of Norway and Switzerland, but firstly those are tiny economies (and populations) compared to ours, and secondly Norway and Switzerland end up being bound by laws promulgated by the EU in order to gain access to the European single market, yet have no voice (let alone a small one) at the table when those rules are being set. Europe is our biggest trading partner. That's not going to change any time soon so striking off on our own is at the very best a rather quixotic thing to do.
?


Well, it's not muddle-headed, we just strike our own treaties like every other country that's not part of Europe does. It doesn't do them any harm and, in fact, enables them to strike more favourable terms becuase they can be tailored to our economic strength not the French, Germans, or Italians.

Your point about Norway and Switzerland (two countries not exactly banging on the door of Europe to be let in) is a good one - if small economies like theirs can strike very advantageous terms with Europe, imagine what we could achieve?


What advantageous terms would those be?


Both enjoy full access to the EU's single market without being part of the Common Agricultural Policy, the Common Fisheries Policy, the European Court, Commission or Parliament. Both countries, critically, are able to sign free trade accords with non-EU states – much the greatest advantage in the present global economy.

All the advantages, without any of the disadvantages.

The common fisheries policy is a critical one as we could get control of our own waters, something shamefully given away as a bribe by Ted Heath.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim wrote:
Alf McQueef wrote:
....and presumably the "leave" campaign will be based purely on lies and racism as it was in Scotland.


I didn't hear any racism from anyone I was talking to?

Where did you hear it?


It was deliberately firm language to stoke up the debate. You could call it misplaced nationalism, that might be kinder. But with the scottish and euro "out" camp I get the feeling that hard economics (i.e. all being poorer off) matter not a jot compared to a pretty small minded sense of satisfaction that "we showed them", which (in an English context) comes more from worrying about Daily Mail headlines sensationalising trivial matters than looking at the bigger picture.

There was a big "war games" type exercise recently with senior ex-politicians on both sides pretending to thrash out an agreement between the UK and Europe following the UK leaving, and Europe utterly wiped the floor with us - they hold almost all the cards and would deliberately punish us even if it hurt them a bit, to make a point and try and shore up the whole EU project. That itself may not be strictly logical, but its the most likely outcome if we leave:

http://www.economist.com/news/bri...on-do-deal-brussels-renegotiating
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I live in Germany working for a UK company I have selected "Stay in".
As I live in Germany working for a UK company I don't get to vote. If I lived in the UK I would vote Out.
I think the days of the EU are numbered so it may all be immaterial anyway.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Alf McQueef:544090"][quote="Tim:544069"]
Alf McQueef wrote:
.
There was a big "war games" type exercise recently with senior ex-politicians on both sides pretending to thrash out an agreement between the UK and Europe following the UK leaving, and Europe utterly wiped the floor with us - they hold almost all the cards and would deliberately punish us even if it hurt them a bit, to make a point and try and shore up the whole EU project. That itself may not be strictly logical, but its the most likely outcome if we leave:


That's the best argument I've heard for voting to leave then.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alf McQueef wrote:
would deliberately punish us even if it hurt them a bit, to make a point and try and shore up the whole EU project. That itself may not be strictly logical, but its the most likely outcome if we leave:

http://www.economist.com/news/bri...on-do-deal-brussels-renegotiating


So how is Leszek Balcerowicz's Poland going to punish the UK?.......Stop sending over its plumbers?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Bob Sacamano:544097"][quote="Alf McQueef:544090"]
Tim wrote:
Alf McQueef wrote:
.
There was a big "war games" type exercise recently with senior ex-politicians on both sides pretending to thrash out an agreement between the UK and Europe following the UK leaving, and Europe utterly wiped the floor with us - they hold almost all the cards and would deliberately punish us even if it hurt them a bit, to make a point and try and shore up the whole EU project. That itself may not be strictly logical, but its the most likely outcome if we leave:


That's the best argument I've heard for voting to leave then.


Quite. Did this exercise take into account the UK trade with the RoW, or does the EU think we cannot do trade with anyone else, or has it forgotten that we have the biggest Financial market in the world, or that the USA is deeply suspicious of the EU and its Commie socio-economic position. Basically without Germany and the German economy and the mind-set of the German people the EU mainland is fucked.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
if we stay in we're one small voice among 27, with minimal influence, leave and we're in a position to sail our own path.


This whole "free to sail our own path" thing is, in my view, simply muddle-headed. That's just not the way international trading and political relationships work these days.

People love to quote the examples of Norway and Switzerland, but firstly those are tiny economies (and populations) compared to ours, and secondly Norway and Switzerland end up being bound by laws promulgated by the EU in order to gain access to the European single market, yet have no voice (let alone a small one) at the table when those rules are being set. Europe is our biggest trading partner. That's not going to change any time soon so striking off on our own is at the very best a rather quixotic thing to do.
?


Well, it's not muddle-headed, we just strike our own treaties like every other country that's not part of Europe does. It doesn't do them any harm and, in fact, enables them to strike more favourable terms becuase they can be tailored to our economic strength not the French, Germans, or Italians.

Your point about Norway and Switzerland (two countries not exactly banging on the door of Europe to be let in) is a good one - if small economies like theirs can strike very advantageous terms with Europe, imagine what we could achieve?


What advantageous terms would those be?


Both enjoy full access to the EU's single market without being part of the Common Agricultural Policy, the Common Fisheries Policy, the European Court, Commission or Parliament. Both countries, critically, are able to sign free trade accords with non-EU states – much the greatest advantage in the present global economy.

All the advantages, without any of the disadvantages.

The common fisheries policy is a critical one as we could get control of our own waters, something shamefully given away as a bribe by Ted Heath.


As we all know, all Member States of the EU are required to contribute to the EU's budget, which is a source of much tooth-gnashing amongst "Beleavers". And of course, not being members of the EU, Norway and Switzerland therefore do not need to contribute to the EU budget. However, it should also be remembered that he who does not contribute also does not receive, and the overwhelming majority of EU budget contributions go straight out into spending in various member states deemed to need it. That doesn't matter for Norway and Switzerland, which are both extremely wealthy states - Norway which has the world's biggest sovereign wealth fund worth nearly a trillion dollars (I'll repeat that – nearly a trillion dollars) and Switzerland has so much money sloshing around it has to charge negative interest rates on its currency and ask its taxpayers to defer paying taxes. Ok, so the UK is a net contributor, but we certainly also receive through agricultural subsidies and regeneration projects – Waveney (the area around Lowestoft) is just one part of the UK which I happen to know benefits from a multi-million EU Funding programme aimed at regenerating what is a very poor area. And in fact Switzerland and Norway do participate in funding a range of European projects from which they derive benefit, and no doubt an "out" UK would continue to do the same.
It is mandatory for all EU member states to adopt and implement all EU laws that get passed, absent any negotiated opt-outs (which the UK specialises in). However, as I alluded to before, if you have a seat at the table when the laws are being formulated, you at least get a say in their drafting (and we actually get quite a big say, contrary to popular belief). Norway and Switzerland do not. You might think this doesn't matter since they aren't members of the EU. But both Switzerland and Norway freely admit that even though they are not part of the European Union, they are in fact intricately linked to it through mutual laws and agreements which originate from the EU. For example, both are part of the Schengen zone and have been required to open their borders to EU migrant workers (now there's something you don't hear the Beleavers mention). Furthermore, it is more or less a pre-requisite for trading and dealing with Member States of the EU that you comply with the EU's rules ("you want to play in our sandpit, you must do so on our terms") and therefore in fact most of Norway's and Switzerland's laws end up being structured to comply the relevant EU legislation. In particular, Switzerland, which unlike Norway is not part of the European Economic Area, has had to conclude something like 100 bilateral agreements with the EU so as to gain access to the single market. Good news for constitutional lawyers I could venture. Not so sure about everyone else. As I see it, the net result is that you still have certain laws formulated in Brussels but you no longer get any say in them. Wow. How appealing a prospect that is.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Bob Sacamano:544097"][quote="Alf McQueef:544090"]
Tim wrote:
Alf McQueef wrote:
.
There was a big "war games" type exercise recently with senior ex-politicians on both sides pretending to thrash out an agreement between the UK and Europe following the UK leaving, and Europe utterly wiped the floor with us - they hold almost all the cards and would deliberately punish us even if it hurt them a bit, to make a point and try and shore up the whole EU project. That itself may not be strictly logical, but its the most likely outcome if we leave:


That's the best argument I've heard for voting to leave then.


Forgive me for not following that line of argument. Sounds very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are people who happen to think that leaving may be in the best interests of the UK being sneeringly referred to as "Beleavers"? How does that advance the argument? Or is it that ordinary people can't have a valid opinion and we've got to be "guided" by our betters - the ruling classes who have done a sterling job up to now.

As has been pointed out we're net contributors so the EU throwing a few treats our way as sop to that doesn't really carry water.

I joined this thread undecided and to a certain degree played devil's advocate, advancing an argument for leaving while still sitting on the side of staying in. I'm beginning to think I've managed to change my own mind.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure there are laws and trade agreements that suggest local-state operator companies must exist to pay local-state corporation taxes for the earnings and trade carried out in that local-state.

That works then......
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Racing Teatray:544103"][quote="Bob Sacamano:544097"]
Alf McQueef wrote:
Tim wrote:
Alf McQueef wrote:
.
There was a big "war games" type exercise recently with senior ex-politicians on both sides pretending to thrash out an agreement between the UK and Europe following the UK leaving, and Europe utterly wiped the floor with us - they hold almost all the cards and would deliberately punish us even if it hurt them a bit, to make a point and try and shore up the whole EU project. That itself may not be strictly logical, but its the most likely outcome if we leave:


That's the best argument I've heard for voting to leave then.


Forgive me for not following that line of argument. Sounds very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.


Not really, it just means that those we thought were friends would turn against us at the first opportunity. Do we need friends like that?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alf McQueef wrote:
Tim wrote:
Alf McQueef wrote:
....and presumably the "leave" campaign will be based purely on lies and racism as it was in Scotland.


I didn't hear any racism from anyone I was talking to?

Where did you hear it?


It was deliberately firm language to stoke up the debate. You could call it misplaced nationalism, that might be kinder. But with the scottish and euro "out" camp I get the feeling that hard economics (i.e. all being poorer off) matter not a jot compared to a pretty small minded sense of satisfaction that "we showed them", which (in an English context) comes more from worrying about Daily Mail headlines sensationalising trivial matters than looking at the bigger picture.

There was a big "war games" type exercise recently with senior ex-politicians on both sides pretending to thrash out an agreement between the UK and Europe following the UK leaving, and Europe utterly wiped the floor with us - they hold almost all the cards and would deliberately punish us even if it hurt them a bit, to make a point and try and shore up the whole EU project. That itself may not be strictly logical, but its the most likely outcome if we leave:

http://www.economist.com/news/bri...on-do-deal-brussels-renegotiating


Makes sense.
I was just worried that you still thought the Scottish Independence thing was about being anti-English - it might've been for a few small minded people but nobody I spoke to about it had really even thought like that.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Bob Sacamano:544108"][quote="Racing Teatray:544103"]
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Alf McQueef wrote:
Tim wrote:
Alf McQueef wrote:
.
There was a big "war games" type exercise recently with senior ex-politicians on both sides pretending to thrash out an agreement between the UK and Europe following the UK leaving, and Europe utterly wiped the floor with us - they hold almost all the cards and would deliberately punish us even if it hurt them a bit, to make a point and try and shore up the whole EU project. That itself may not be strictly logical, but its the most likely outcome if we leave:


That's the best argument I've heard for voting to leave then.


Forgive me for not following that line of argument. Sounds very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.


Not really, it just means that those we thought were friends would turn against us at the first opportunity. Do we need friends like that?


I never said they were friends. It's nothing if not a bear pit of competing national interests. But the old adage goes "keep your friends close and keep your enemies closer".

Everything I have read or heard on the topic makes me fully fail to see how it would best serve our interests to leave the European Union. And if I am guilty of sneering, then perhaps it's because I have come across too many Tories whose anti-Europeanism just seems completely ideological and completely illogical.

I don't think the world will end if Britain leaves Europe. But I am very worried that it will prove to be a costly mistake. Particularly if the Union subsequently collapses as I noted previously.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Bob Sacamano:544108"][quote="Racing Teatray:544103"]
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Alf McQueef wrote:
Tim wrote:
Alf McQueef wrote:
.
There was a big "war games" type exercise recently with senior ex-politicians on both sides blah blah.....


That's the best argument I've heard for voting to leave then.


Forgive me for not following that line of argument. Sounds very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.


Not really, it just means that those we thought were friends would turn against us at the first opportunity. Do we need friends like that?


Yes, one of the main problems with the EU is the absolute distrust of those outside its control, which must include developing nations as well as the UK / Norway / Schweitz. They loved the Greece thing as it gave them an opportunity to show the rest of the EU that they would take control of a nation and force it to behave "EU-ish" without the need for minor obstructions like democracy. Mainland Europeans have had a far more recent history of being under martial law than the UK and it shows.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing Teatray wrote:


I don't think the world will end if Britain leaves Europe. But I am very worried that it will prove to be a costly mistake. Particularly if the Union subsequently collapses as I noted previously.


Fair point but then again if it's to happen it may be better to be running ahead of the avalanche than consumed within it.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be very concerned that leaving the EU would result in many large companies leaving UK. Many of our largest employers do the majority of their trade with Europe and they won't be able to afford to stick around to see what happens: they will have to have contingency plans in place so that they can relocate to continental Europe and protect their businesses. Companies like Airbus might find it politically difficult to keep a UK capacity or at best, they won't invest in the UK part of the business. Nissan likewise.

I suppose that there might be some advantages such as the end of the need to give contracts to companies from outside the UK to do work here just because they are marginally cheaper than the UK companies bids but I think there would be a lot of old scores settled if we left and I have no doubt that we would come off second best.

Our farming is now dependant on EC subsidies (as it is in most EC states) so there would be many practical problems in reversing membership and we would be likely to see increasing prices if the subsidies had to be replaced.

There is a lot wrong with the EU but free trade, free movement between countries and the Political might of such a block gives more positives than negatives.

As for migrants and the problems they are bringing, I think the EU are going to have to address this issue and how it impacts on them sooner rather than later - that in itself might "help" some of the Euro Sceptics to be a bit less negative if some of the border controls are tightened.

I would vote to stay in but it is far from perfect.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnC wrote:
I'd be very concerned that leaving the EU would result in many large companies leaving UK. Many of our largest employers do the majority of their trade with Europe and they won't be able to afford to stick around to see what happens: they will have to have contingency plans in place so that they can relocate to continental Europe and protect their businesses. Companies like Airbus might find it politically difficult to keep a UK capacity or at best, they won't invest in the UK part of the business. Nissan likewise.

I suppose that there might be some advantages such as the end of the need to give contracts to companies from outside the UK to do work here just because they are marginally cheaper than the UK companies bids but I think there would be a lot of old scores settled if we left and I have no doubt that we would come off second best.

Our farming is now dependant on EC subsidies (as it is in most EC states) so there would be many practical problems in reversing membership and we would be likely to see increasing prices if the subsidies had to be replaced.

There is a lot wrong with the EU but free trade, free movement between countries and the Political might of such a block gives more positives than negatives.

As for migrants and the problems they are bringing, I think the EU are going to have to address this issue and how it impacts on them sooner rather than later - that in itself might "help" some of the Euro Sceptics to be a bit less negative if some of the border controls are tightened.

I would vote to stay in but it is far from perfect.


My last word:

We were told all these companies and the financial institutions would leave London and the UK if we didn't join the Euro. They didn't.

The Common Agricultural Policy works against British farmers because it doesn't reward productivity, not surprising as it is a tool to support inefficient French farmers. Leave Europe and the CAP behind and we could easily support those farmers we wanted to and import the best and cheapest food from around the world. General opinion is that this would save the average household £400 a year.

The WTO has brought down tariffs around the world but even if they did stuff it up us we could pay up and still be quids in compared to what we pay now.

The EU is a Franco-German club with Brussels as their little henchman. Lets  face it we're never going to be welcomed into it  - as De Gaulle said when he blocked our entry the first time "you can't have two cockerels in the farmyard", so we either have to be their good little hen shitting the golden eggs or grow some balls and fuck off on our own.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnC wrote:
I'd be very concerned that leaving the EU would result in many large companies leaving UK. Many of our largest employers do the majority of their trade with Europe and they won't be able to afford to stick around to see what happens: they will have to have contingency plans in place so that they can relocate to continental Europe and protect their businesses. Companies like Airbus might find it politically difficult to keep a UK capacity or at best, they won't invest in the UK part of the business. Nissan likewise.

I suppose that there might be some advantages such as the end of the need to give contracts to companies from outside the UK to do work here just because they are marginally cheaper than the UK companies bids but I think there would be a lot of old scores settled if we left and I have no doubt that we would come off second best.

Our farming is now dependant on EC subsidies (as it is in most EC states) so there would be many practical problems in reversing membership and we would be likely to see increasing prices if the subsidies had to be replaced.

There is a lot wrong with the EU but free trade, free movement between countries and the Political might of such a block gives more positives than negatives.

As for migrants and the problems they are bringing, I think the EU are going to have to address this issue and how it impacts on them sooner rather than later - that in itself might "help" some of the Euro Sceptics to be a bit less negative if some of the border controls are tightened.

I would vote to stay in but it is far from perfect.


My last word:

We were told all these companies and the financial institutions would leave London and the UK if we didn't join the Euro. They didn't.

The Common Agricultural Policy works against British farmers because it doesn't reward productivity, not surprising as it is a tool to support inefficient French farmers. Leave Europe and the CAP behind and we could easily support those farmers we wanted to and import the best and cheapest food from around the world. General opinion is that this would save the average household £400 a year.

The WTO has brought down tariffs around the world but even if they did stuff it up us we could pay up and still be quids in compared to what we pay now.

The EU is a Franco-German club with Brussels as their little henchman. Lets  face it we're never going to be welcomed into it  - as De Gaulle said when he blocked our entry the first time "you can't have two cockerels in the farmyard", so we either have to be their good little hen shitting the golden eggs or grow some balls and fuck off on our own.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your first last word was actually your second to last word...
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Sacamano wrote:

The EU is a Franco-German club with Brussels as their little henchman. Lets  face it we're never going to be welcomed into it  - as De Gaulle said when he blocked our entry the first time "you can't have two cockerels in the farmyard", so we either have to be their good little hen shitting the golden eggs or grow some balls and fuck off on our own.


What I never understood is why, once we'd managed to sidestep that frightful French ingrate, we shilly-shallied about with Europe when if we'd actually grown a pair, we could have been the ones calling the shots in Europe and moulded it the way we wanted.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roadsterstu wrote:
Your first last word was actually your second to last word...


Yes, that was a bit like flouncing out and then having to come back and have another go at slamming the door.   [/i]
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobs the new Alan.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still undecided. But most big companies I've seen relocate their headquarters have been to Switzerland or Luxembourg, for obvious reasons.......
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
Bobs the new Alan.


They live around the same area too I think.

Maybe he IS Alan...
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm all for staying. The EU is not perfect in many ways and a lot of their aims are based around a eutopian view that just isn't happening. I've also not heard any decent arguments to leave. There have been lots of people spouting off on radio phone ins saying we can have our own laws and stop immigration. Yet when challenged these people cannot think of a specific law in this country that was created by the EU and has a negative effect on their life. Equally there is no way that, were we to leave, all those migrants in Callais would suddenly no longer want to come here!

In a world that may well see Donald Trump become the next U.S. President I'm all for keeping ourselves more tightly knit with our European allies, rather than try to suck up to a presedent who we tried to ban from entering our country.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeN wrote:
Michael wrote:
Bobs the new Alan.


They live around the same area too I think.

Maybe he IS Alan...


I thought it was well known that Alan was one of Bob's characters? (as is Bob for that matter)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to think there is a bit of Bob in all of us.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not since about 11 o'clock, there's not.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbeaks1 wrote:
I like to think there is a bit of Bob in all of us.


To misquote the late great Phil Lynott:
"Would you like a little more Bob in 'ye?"
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Stay in.

Another vote for banning of made up words like Brexit and Grexit.  Fucking awful.


I'd be funny they used them on the voting slips though!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gooner wrote:
...Yet when challenged these people cannot think of a specific law in this country that was created by the EU and has a negative effect on their life.


I'm sure I read somewhere the background to this - basically, a large percentage of uk laws can trace their history to the European Parliamnent in some way but that doesn't mean it's a European law, it's a British interpretation; an example would be that this summer we went to watch a stunt display in France; most of the contributors smoked around the various sources of ignition and the barrier to the public was something akin to Chapter 8; that is France's interpretation of reasonably practicable - the uk interpretation would be somewhat different. It is, I'm afraid, another example of Disraeli being spot-on.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank Bullitt wrote:
gooner wrote:
...Yet when challenged these people cannot think of a specific law in this country that was created by the EU and has a negative effect on their life.


I'm sure I read somewhere the background to this - basically, a large percentage of uk laws can trace their history to the European Parliamnent in some way but that doesn't mean it's a European law, it's a British interpretation; an example would be that this summer we went to watch a stunt display in France; most of the contributors smoked around the various sources of ignition and the barrier to the public was something akin to Chapter 8; that is France's interpretation of reasonably practicable - the uk interpretation would be somewhat different. It is, I'm afraid, another example of Disraeli being spot-on.


Which basically means that the much vaunted single market and harmonisation of this, that or the other are not that, in any way shape or form. Which renders it all rather meaningless.

Which is one of my reasons for being on the fence  / bordering leave.

My job is in the Finance function of a multi national (US owned) company. We have 500 people across Europe and offices in five Euro and three non-Euro EU countries and one non-EU country. So I should be the sort of person who says "we must stay in".

In my job, I can safely say that the EU makes doing business across all those countries not one jot easier, nor do I see it adding anything to the economic well being of any of the countries I visit or work with. The accounting, reporting and tax rules are different everywhere, as are the legal, banking, employment, health and pension laws. Even where there is "EU law" everybody has implemented it differently. Take VAT (an EU mandated tax) which is differently policed and administered everywhere. The chances of them all being harmonsied are nil, unless it is forced though at the cost of further economic problems in all places.

Economically the countries in the EU are all different. And to change them all to be the same is impossible as things stand. As the Euro’s utter failure to deal with its first economic downturn has so brutally shown, it is all about politics, not economics.  

When I visit ex-Warsaw pact countries (we have an office in Poland), there is no denying that they want to be “European” and that they want to be allowed to develop free from Russian influence, but the Poles are totally against the Euro for example.  

About the only unifying thing that I can point to is that English is the major business language across the EU.  And I don’t think that has anything to do with the EU.

In my view we get no real benefit from being a member that we would not already have were we never to have been a member. The world has moved on since 1945. The founders of the EU have not changed or seen that. For them "ever closer union" is always going to be the goal and the answer to every problem. "More Europe" is their way forward.  

So whether you are in our out really depends on what you think will happen after a vote.  

(1) If you want ever closer union, vote to stay in.

If you don't want ever closer union, then how you vote should depend on what you believe.

(2) If you think that the EU will honour the agreements that will be reached and that we will be exempted from ever closer union, then we're probably safer staying in. It's the hole we know best so we may as well stay in it - better the devil you know maybe?

(3) But if you think that the EU will not honour the agreement - by clearly ignoring it or by stealth - then you need to vote to leave. The economic risks may be uncertain, but the politics might be clearer.

At the moment I'm torn between 2 and 3.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: RDQ - 2.2.16 Brexit Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
So, with the reforms adding up to not a great deal, how would you vote based on the current offer?


So, with the reforms having added up to  ery little indeed and the government stay in camp trumpeting it a big success for Britain, has your position changed at all since your vote in this thread?

I was "in" but only just. I'm beginning to think more about voting "out" on 23rd June. I will be watching the (no doubt endless) yes or no campaigns with some interest but I really do wonder if we should up sticks and leave.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: RDQ - 2.2.16 Brexit Reply with quote

Roadsterstu wrote:
Michael wrote:
So, with the reforms adding up to not a great deal, how would you vote based on the current offer?


So, with the reforms having added up to  ery little indeed and the government stay in camp trumpeting it a big success for Britain, has your position changed at all since your vote in this thread?

I was "in" but only just. I'm beginning to think more about voting "out" on 23rd June. I will be watching the (no doubt endless) yes or no campaigns with some interest but I really do wonder if we should up sticks and leave.


I suppose it depends on how you'd define 'a little' or 'a lot' - I think that Cameron has been able to negotiate any change at all is probably more momentous than we'd initially consider, especially as the Anti-European lobby would have you think that no change was ever possible as the EU wouldn't be willing to have any discussion. Of course, 'anti' would say the change is not enough (would it ever be...I doubt it) and the 'In' probably aren't that bothered there is a change at all - as always, it's down to whether those who are undecided as to what they think.

Interestingly on a FB group I'm in all the talk is of the pro-Europeans winding up the 'world will end in doom if we leave' rhetoric and yet it seems the 'Out' have actually stolen a march with IDS suggesting staying in is tantamount to promoting an ISIS attack in mainland uk.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My main concern about this referendum is that as a nation I suspect that a large proportion of our population are not able to fully understand the reasons why we should or shouldn't stay in and will have their choice determined by whatever newspaper, politician or (worryingly) their favourite celebrity has chosen. It's good that we're having this debate on this forum as we all seem a reasonably intelligent lot (jury's still out on Bob) and we can't all agree or really say 100% which is the best way to vote. How can we expect your average joe to make a fully informed choice and not go with what someone of Facebook has said about how much of a problem immigration is - good luck trying to find a British born person willing to clean toilets or pick fruit.

I'm still undecided and am almost inclined to refuse to vote if I can't be comfortable that I'm making an informed choice. What I'm pretty certain of is that neither result will solve all or perhaps any of our problems.


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