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canadian bacon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:04 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

In the Poll tax days our household tax bill tripled as there were 3 adults in the house, I personally ended up having to pay, whereas under the previous set up, I didn't.....oh and we got no extra/improved services for the extra funds, just the same as before.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

canadian bacon wrote:
In the Poll tax days our household tax bill tripled as there were 3 adults in the house, I personally ended up having to pay, whereas under the previous set up, I didn't.....oh and we got no extra/improved services for the extra funds, just the same as before.


That was the whole point. Previously you were getting the services at a reduced rate per head as opposed to being overcharged as your post suggests. This is what made it unpopular with houses with older children at home, shared houses and bedsits.
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Bob Sacamano
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone eligible to vote in local elections should have skin in the game and be making a financial contribution to local services. If there's three working adults in a household of course they should all be paying and paying far more than a single householder. Call it a local income tax if needs be.
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JohnC
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with the local income tax is that Councils (which are not the brightest or most sophisticated of organisations) would need to know how much everyone was earning to be able to levy a charge. Effectively they would each need to have similar systems to HMRC. Worse still is that you don't need to submit your Tax Return until the end of January in the year after the fiscal year in question, so they would always be miles behind.

I think the KISS method is best for local authorities
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnC wrote:
I think the KISS method is best for local authorities


.... and a fundamental issue is:
Is it a tax on properties or their occupiers?

It's sort-of generally acepted that income tax is a tax on individuals, and a property tax is an additional burder that has to be imposed on us should we choose not to live in the open...... ie legalised extortion as it does not take into account your ability to pay.  However we all need at least a few of the services that our local councils provide, and they have to be funded somehow.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps base it on the number of working age occupiers but use a sliding scale based on income.  Problem is, the councils encourage a "Do not under any circumstances, think for yourself" mindset.  That and anything above 1 plus 1 gets file 13'd.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our bill for this year came today. Couldn't bring myself to open it!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ours arrived yesterday and appears to be 25 per month higher
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ours arrived today and it has increased by 0.4% (so basically no change) to 1,670ish per annum. Apparently our house is band G.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Everyone eligible to vote in local elections should have skin in the game and be making a financial contribution to local services. If there's three working adults in a household of course they should all be paying and paying far more than a single householder. Call it a local income tax if needs be.


This annoys me about a house on our lane. The familiy have three daughters of working age living at home with additional accommodation provided by a recently acquired mobile home (no planning permission). That household of seven adults pays the same council tax as our household of two working adults and yet their use of local services is massive next to our negligible demands. Something has to give.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing Teatray wrote:
Ours arrived today and it has increased by 0.4% (so basically no change) to 1,670ish per annum. Apparently our house is band G.


The benefits of a protected Tory council. That would be 2500 anywhere else.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Blue wrote:
The benefits of a protected Tory council. That would be 2500 anywhere else.

Not necessarily, I live in Tory Heartland, heaven's sake, our last tory MP was booted out so that Michael Gove could have a safe seat, but it's not stopped our council tax form spiralling upwards far in excess of the rate of inflation
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Big Blue
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Protected meaning measures are taken to make sure it stays Conservative; no need for that in the Surrey heartlands
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Blue wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
Ours arrived today and it has increased by 0.4% (so basically no change) to 1,670ish per annum. Apparently our house is band G.


The benefits of a protected Tory council. That would be 2500 anywhere else.


Umm...actually Hammersmith & Fulham is Labour...

Fulham and Chelsea are a bit odd in that respect constituency-wise, we are "Chelsea & Fulham", which unsurprisingly has a Tory MP. But the council boundaries are different Fulham gets lumped in with Hammersmith (Labour MP) and Chelsea gets lumped in with Kensington (Tory MP).
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm struggling with a Council Tax bill being only 1600 in London. There's a rabbit away somewhere.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Sacamano wrote:
I'm struggling with a Council Tax bill being only 1600 in London. There's a rabbit away somewhere.


Me too. Ours, for a Band D 2-bedroomed semi-detached, is well over 2K!!!    
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a densely populated area like London, there will be far more houses in any particular square mile from which to collect Council Tax than you would get in less well populated areas, so the cost per house can be lower. I suppose that then leads to the question of whether all houses of the same band should be priced the same wherever they are situated. However it removes a good bit of the accountability for the local Councils if their actions aren't reflected in the amount they charge their electorate.

I think the only sensible solution is to move work and jobs away from the South East and redistribute some of the wealth around the country by those means.

My sister in law in Manchester was chatting to my wife last night about Scottish independence and she said that it wasn't just Scotland - there is a lot of unease and unhappiness with London and the SE from the Manchester area as well, where they feel forgotten and very underfunded, especially when they see the massive infrastructure projects being carried out in the London area.

I think the "redistribution of wealth" should not be taken in the literal sense and should be more of a redistribution of people and jobs to create wealth.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boxer6 wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
I'm struggling with a Council Tax bill being only 1600 in London. There's a rabbit away somewhere.


Me too. Ours, for a Band D 2-bedroomed semi-detached, is well over 2K!!!


You have to remember that, Band G or not, my house is also a 2-bedroomed semi-detached...and I had to pay a king's ransom to acquire it, which I assume you did not.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing Teatray wrote:
Boxer6 wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
I'm struggling with a Council Tax bill being only 1600 in London. There's a rabbit away somewhere.


Me too. Ours, for a Band D 2-bedroomed semi-detached, is well over 2K!!!


You have to remember that, Band G or not, my house is also a 2-bedroomed semi-detached...and I had to pay a king's ransom to acquire it, which I assume you did not.


Yes, but that's got nothing to do with the Council Tax bill - if anything it makes it worse as you could argue there's a strong argument for re-banding it significantly upwards.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnC wrote:

I think the only sensible solution is to move work and jobs away from the South East and redistribute some of the wealth around the country by those means.

My sister in law in Manchester was chatting to my wife last night about Scottish independence and she said that it wasn't just Scotland - there is a lot of unease and unhappiness with London and the SE from the Manchester area as well, where they feel forgotten and very underfunded, especially when they see the massive infrastructure projects being carried out in the London area.

I think the "redistribution of wealth" should not be taken in the literal sense and should be more of a redistribution of people and jobs to create wealth.


My relatives in Nottinghamshire & Lincolnshire feel exactly the same way but there doesn't appear to be any will to move even a speck of focus away from the SE, in fact the opposite appears to be true.

I think this is a large portion of what is fuelling the SNP/independence movement up here, it's not anti-English, it's anti-Westminster.

The only difference is that Scotland has a political party to make these comments, places like Manchester, etc don't.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
Boxer6 wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
I'm struggling with a Council Tax bill being only 1600 in London. There's a rabbit away somewhere.


Me too. Ours, for a Band D 2-bedroomed semi-detached, is well over 2K!!!


You have to remember that, Band G or not, my house is also a 2-bedroomed semi-detached...and I had to pay a king's ransom to acquire it, which I assume you did not.


Yes, but that's got nothing to do with the Council Tax bill - if anything it makes it worse as you could argue there's a strong argument for re-banding it significantly upwards.


Not really - in fact not unless the local council needs the money - council tax is after all intended to be a local tax covering local services. The fact that some councils are evidently rather less lean operations than others should not affect what people living in other councils pay.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing Teatray wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
Boxer6 wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
I'm struggling with a Council Tax bill being only 1600 in London. There's a rabbit away somewhere.


Me too. Ours, for a Band D 2-bedroomed semi-detached, is well over 2K!!!


You have to remember that, Band G or not, my house is also a 2-bedroomed semi-detached...and I had to pay a king's ransom to acquire it, which I assume you did not.


Yes, but that's got nothing to do with the Council Tax bill - if anything it makes it worse as you could argue there's a strong argument for re-banding it significantly upwards.




Not really - in fact not unless the local council needs the money - council tax is after all intended to be a local tax covering local services. The fact that some councils are evidently rather less lean operations than others should not affect what people living in other councils pay.


I'm not sure there's an argument that your local council is significantly more lean than others but that's a side issue, plus Council Tax typically makes up less than 20% of a Council's revenue. It would suggest to me some different funding formula from Central Government.
Alternatively, as Adult Social Care is generally the largest part of most Council's budget, it could be that your Council has less of this burden - more people retiring, selling up and moving out of London perhaps - in which case is it fair that other councils are then left with these ongoing costs? It strikes me that funding fro ASC needs to be taken away from Councils and funded centrally, spreading the costs more fairly.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that may well be correct. And I don't disagree with you on the poll tax either.

I have no idea whether the retiring point is a valid one. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population , my council (Hammersmith & Fulham ranks 99th out of 326 by population size in the UK with a population of around 180,000. There are no shortage of crinklies, because the young largely can't afford it! But perhaps they are wealthier crinklies who can afford more private care.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm yet to receive the payment schedule for next years council tax, this thread is making me nervous it'll have a big hike!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing Teatray wrote:
Well, that may well be correct. And I don't disagree with you on the poll tax either.

I have no idea whether the retiring point is a valid one. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_districts_by_population , my council (Hammersmith & Fulham ranks 99th out of 326 by population size in the UK with a population of around 180,000. There are no shortage of crinklies, because the young largely can't afford it! But perhaps they are wealthier crinklies who can afford more private care.


Yes, but on the other hand it's more cost effective to deliver care in london.

my Dad relocated to Devon along with vaste swathes on the elderly population, the poor roads and distances carers have to travel make it expensive to deliver care there, so I'd rather they were discouraged from moving there by higher council tax bills than me fund it via re-distribution of council tax.

Can I point out that if anyone has a problem with their council tax they can:

a) Downsize
b) Move to a cheaper area.

Besides which it's a very first world problem - paying 1600 or 2000 per year, the difference is only 1 per day. Many people would be grateful to have such problems.

If the increase is going towards social care in my area then I'm happy to pay my bit towards it.


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