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VED changes

 
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Do you know about the Rfl/ved changes in March?
What? No.
33%
 33%  [ 8 ]
Yes
54%
 54%  [ 13 ]
Yes - i am going to change my car before March as I hate VED
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Yes - couldn't care less if it costs more
12%
 12%  [ 3 ]
Yes - I will never buy a £40k car again
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 24

Author Message
cbeaks1
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: VED changes  Reply with quote

People in the industry are predicting the biggest month ever in March in advance of the April changes.

I'm not convinced anyone knows about it, or that, say, a £400 bill over 3 years would pull people forward.

The basic change is that there is a sliding scale charge in year one and then all except 0 emissions are £140 from year 2. Any car Over £40k then gets another £310 per year for 5 years.

The biggest effect will be on low co2 cars with 0 ved now (1.0 petrol focuses etc) and low co2 but expensive stuff (5 series BMW diesel).
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this only for new cars or are the rest of us going to get shafted as well?

I'm expecting to be bent over a barrel and entered dry for daring to own a diesel.
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Martin
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted yes / couldn't care less, but it should be yes / not particularly happy but it won't do anything differently.  It's not a huge amount compared to depreciation, fuel and other running costs.
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Twelfth Monkey
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, those of us who bought a car with a large engine will carry on getting shafted, I see.
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Nice Guy Eddie
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I'm fully aware that its not s huge deal when you take into account all the other running costs but I hate being shafted by the government and it'll be enough to make me think twice about buying a car over 40k
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Michael
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm aware of it. The arrangement seems crude and I'm not convinced it will do so much for buyer behaviour but it annoys me to think that my Volvo would be in the over £40k bracket even though I paid £10k under that threshold.
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cbeaks1
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blarno wrote:
Is this only for new cars or are the rest of us going to get shafted as well?

I'm expecting to be bent over a barrel and entered dry for daring to own a diesel.


I think retrospective shafting is hard to pull off. You are safe as you are.
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TreVoR
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm aware of it but it doesn't affect me.
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Bob Sacamano
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If VED was ring-fenced and spent on the roads, instead of just going into the general taxation pot, I'd say that it was only fair that all motorists pay a reasonable amount for use of the roads, and £140 is not unreasonable.

However, this is just another way of increasing the tax take by the back door. They keep the headline rate of income tax  at 20% and 40% and people think we live in a low tax country but then they don't increase the thresholds, increase the NI, add an insurance premium tax, increase VAT, mortgage interest tax relief disappeared, etc etc. Face it, we're getting shafted.
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PG
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll still be shafted on the XFR. Which is a shame as if it was retrospective and it is 6 years old in November, I'd make a saving.

I am guessing that a big % of stuff over £40k is a company purchase and as BIK is not affected, I am sure that they hope it will not affect behaviour at the upper £ end of the market. But if the extra RFL affects lease prices due to higher RFL and also maybe lower residuals, then maybe the company car market will be hit too?

What it might totally change behaviour for is private buyers of expensive hybrids and CO2 driven buys. Like the Mitsubishi PHEV, the list price of which for the top models is over £40k. Or as said above, what sensible private buyer is going to get a 2.0d when the RFL is the same as a 3.0 diesel or a 2.0 or even 3.0 petrol now?


Last edited by PG on Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Racing Teatray
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My car costs £185 per year to tax, including in the first year. Post the changes, it would have been £500 in year 1 and then £450 per annum for the following five years. So over sixyears, that's about £1,650. Not life-changing but every little helps and I was happy to avoid it.

On the 500, the VED is zero, which is always nice. If we buy a new one, it will go up to £140 per annum. Again not life-changing but another reason not to bother changing it for a new one.
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Racing Teatray
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PG wrote:
I'll still be shafted on the XFR. Which is a shame as if it was retrospective and it is 6 years old in November, I'd make a saving. Which is the opposite of when Gordo shafted us all back in 2002, when anything over 225gm/km got a total shatfting and it really hit values on big engined petrol cars. Bloody wanker that man was.


Pales into insignificance compared to his abolition of residential mortgage interest tax relief despite leaving it in place for landlords...
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Chris M Wanted a V-10
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I foresee some expensive company cars being changed at 3 years old, then sitting on forecourts for 2 years whilst private buyers wait for the drop in road tax.

Personally, whilst it would be good to change the C-Max for something less white, I really am stumped when trying to come up with a suitable replacement.  Sitting at mum's house awaiting collection by me is a cheque to me from one of dad's life insurance policies following his passing last November which would cover the purchase of a new Kuga Vignale, but do I really want one / is there much benefit in changing the C-Max for one?

I think I'll stick the money into a "travel" account to see various places around the world over the next few years instead of splashing out on another new car
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Michael
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are commercial vehicles taxed in a similar way?
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TreVoR
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HGV VED is complicated. Light commercials are treated like cars, I think.
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Michael
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, hypothetically, if I bought a VW Transporter it's got to cost under £40k list.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I think so.
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cbeaks1
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
So, hypothetically, if I bought a VW Transporter it's got to cost under £40k list.


Vans stay as they are now. A minibus would be affected.
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Stuntman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PG wrote:
I'll still be shafted on the XFR. Which is a shame as if it was retrospective and it is 6 years old in November, I'd make a saving.


Indeed.  Perversely, buyers of expensive new cars with relatively high carbon emissions from April 2017 onwards who then keep the car for a long time are taxed much less than owners of similar but older vehicles.

Hey ho.  As Racing says, hardly life-changing.  The main 'losers' are the large number of people whose car tax is currently less than £140 per annum.
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Chip Butty
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone useful in the Treasury has realised how ridiculous the new pricing makes the 23rd March 2006 to 31st March 2017 pricing look.

It's not so bad when you have to pay £515 to tax a monster V8, but there are quite a few innocuous cars that fall into the " hoop buster " category, little known performance gems like the throbbing 2.3 Galaxy automatic for example.

Makes one come over all communistical when the owner of a Ferrari registered on 1st April 2017 will have to pay £450 to re-tax (at 12 months) but the poor sod with the shagged old Galaxy has to pay £500.
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Dr. Hfuhruhurr
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I missing something obvious, or are performance cars in the low 30ks - Golf R, Focus RS, M1/240i - suddenly very tempting?
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Chris M Wanted a V-10
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject: Re: VED changes Reply with quote

cbeaks1 wrote:
People in the industry are predicting the biggest month ever in March in advance of the April changes.

I'm not in the industry and I predicted this almost as soon (within minutes) as it (the tax change) was announced.

"I mean. it stands to reason....."
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cbeaks1
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Am I missing something obvious, or are performance cars in the low 30ks - Golf R, Focus RS, M1/240i - suddenly very tempting?


It is best for buyers of 6 year old expensive multi cylindered stuff. Someone else pays the depreciation, the first year shafting and 5 years at £450. Owner number 2 pays £140 the same as mr mild hybrid.
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Roadsterstu
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blarno wrote:
Is this only for new cars or are the rest of us going to get shafted as well?

I'm expecting to be bent over a barrel and entered dry twice for daring to own a 3 litre petrol.

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Stuntman
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbeaks1 wrote:
Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Am I missing something obvious, or are performance cars in the low 30ks - Golf R, Focus RS, M1/240i - suddenly very tempting?


It is best for buyers of 6 year old expensive multi cylindered stuff. Someone else pays the depreciation, the first year shafting and 5 years at £450. Owner number 2 pays £140 the same as mr mild hybrid.


It's only best for those type of buyers in 6-and-a-half years' time, when the cars that are registered from April 2017 onwards reach their sixth birthday.  Current such cars that are 6 or more years old still cost £500+ to tax per annum.
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cbeaks1
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stuntman wrote:
cbeaks1 wrote:
Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Am I missing something obvious, or are performance cars in the low 30ks - Golf R, Focus RS, M1/240i - suddenly very tempting?


It is best for buyers of 6 year old expensive multi cylindered stuff. Someone else pays the depreciation, the first year shafting and 5 years at £450. Owner number 2 pays £140 the same as mr mild hybrid.


It's only best for those type of buyers in 6-and-a-half years' time, when the cars that are registered from April 2017 onwards reach their sixth birthday.  Current such cars that are 6 or more years old still cost £500+ to tax per annum.


Sorry - wasn't clear - that is what I meant 🙂
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JohnC
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What these changes show is that all the previous hypocritical crap about road tax changes being for environmental reasons has been shown to be the lie it always was.

It's all about money and the least political damaging thing to do at the moment seems to be to bash anyone with a bit of cash (or an apparent bit of cash). A few years down the road though, expensive cars will take a bit of a used beating, especially between 3 and 5 years old where they are not attractive to the used car buyer even though they may be far more environmentally friendly than something which much lower road tax. Another scheme thought up by morons in rooms without windows or doors!
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Roadsterstu
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
So, hypothetically, if I bought a VW Transporter it's got to cost under £40k list.


If you bought a VW Transporter you'd get a Forum ban. Hypothetically.
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gonnabuildabuggy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbeaks1 wrote:
Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Am I missing something obvious, or are performance cars in the low 30ks - Golf R, Focus RS, M1/240i - suddenly very tempting?


It is best for buyers of 6 year old expensive multi cylindered stuff. Someone else pays the depreciation, the first year shafting and 5 years at £450. Owner number 2 pays £140 the same as mr mild hybrid.


That sounds like me.

Will be interesting to see how the 2nd hand market adjusts.

As others have said though RFL is nothing compared to depreciation, etc.

The number of low RFL cars now meant that it was going to change at some point.
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Michael
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has always surprised me how a difference £50 (thereabouts) a year road tax would sway people's decisions but then perhaps when you're calculating it on a PCP monthly type measure it makes all the difference.
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Racing Teatray
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, on my GC, the difference in year 1 is £315 and thereafter for the next five years it's £265 per year. On my wife's Fiat, the difference is £140/year.

In each case, that's not enormously less than the annual insurance premium for the relevant car.
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simonp
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many different sets of VED bands do they want to introduce exactly? There's now the pre 2001 two band engine size system, the interim 2001-2006 bandings, the 2006-2017 bands and now the 2017 onwards system. And that doesn't include the tax-exempt old car thing that they always seem to move the goalposts on!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ Yes, I agree.  It's utterly ridiculous.  It should, of course, just be a straightforward ownership tax at a flat rate - just like it used to be.  We pay separately for use.
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Racing Teatray
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still, in some respects we don't know we're born in this country. Road tax and car insurance in Italy are both monstrously expensive. For example to tax and insure our Twinair each year costs a grand sum of £0 for the road tax and approx. £170 for the insurance. In Italy, the same tiny little car would apparently set you back at least €1k annually for tax and insurance combined.

Then when I tell my wife's Italian cousins that I can tax a brand-new 440i GC for £185 a year and insure it for £500 a year, they just goggle at me in utter disbelief. Apparently it would be massively more over there.
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gonnabuildabuggy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing Teatray wrote:
Still, in some respects we don't know we're born in this country. Road tax and car insurance in Italy are both monstrously expensive. For example to tax and insure our Twinair each year costs a grand sum of £0 for the road tax and approx. £170 for the insurance. In Italy, the same tiny little car would apparently set you back at least €1k annually for tax and insurance combined.

Then when I tell my wife's Italian cousins that I can tax a brand-new 440i GC for £185 a year and insure it for £500 a year, they just goggle at me in utter disbelief. Apparently it would be massively more over there.


Yes, it's a lot cheaper here than a lot of countries. Having worked for a multinational I've seen the impact of taxation in terms of both cars and income tax on the differing fleet policies throughout the globe. My former dutch boss chose to live and work in belgium for a variety of reasons including the minimal car tax which meant it was cheap to run big engined petrol cars there.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stuntman wrote:
^^^ Yes, I agree.  It's utterly ridiculous.  It should, of course, just be a straightforward ownership tax at a flat rate - just like it used to be.  We pay separately for use.


Wouldn't the more logical step be to scrap it entirely and put he tax on fuel instead? Thus the more miles you do or the more thirsty your car is (or indeed how much lead is in your right boot), the more you pay. The less you lose, the less you pay. I'm sure some countries already do this. It would also save the cost of administering a system of collecting a payment from he owner of each car and tracing/fining those who don't pay. Feel free to shoot me down if I'm missing some obvious reason why this wouldn't work (other than that we don't want to have to pay more for petrol!)
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PG
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gooner wrote:
Wouldn't the more logical step be to scrap it entirely and put he tax on fuel instead? Thus the more miles you do or the more thirsty your car is (or indeed how much lead is in your right boot), the more you pay.


You are totally 100% spot on.

However, that is far too sensible a view to ever be possible. It's so logical and simple that no politician could ever adopt it.  
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TreVoR
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
cbeaks1 wrote:
Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Am I missing something obvious, or are performance cars in the low 30ks - Golf R, Focus RS, M1/240i - suddenly very tempting?


It is best for buyers of 6 year old expensive multi cylindered stuff. Someone else pays the depreciation, the first year shafting and 5 years at £450. Owner number 2 pays £140 the same as mr mild hybrid.


That sounds like me.

Will be interesting to see how the 2nd hand market adjusts.

As others have said though RFL is nothing compared to depreciation, etc.

The number of low RFL cars now meant that it was going to change at some point.


The new bands only apply to cars after April 2017. Cars registered after 2006 up to 2017 will be taxed similarly to the way they are now.
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Chris M Wanted a V-10
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TreVoR wrote:

The new bands only apply to cars after April 2017. Cars registered after 2006 up to 2017 will be taxed similarly to the way they are now.

Yes, for now.... but how long before a future Government changes that?
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gonnabuildabuggy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PG wrote:
gooner wrote:
Wouldn't the more logical step be to scrap it entirely and put he tax on fuel instead? Thus the more miles you do or the more thirsty your car is (or indeed how much lead is in your right boot), the more you pay.


You are totally 100% spot on.

However, that is far too sensible a view to ever be possible. It's so logical and simple that no politician could ever adopt it.  


Indeed, but that's a tax on Companies, Commuters and the road haulage industry (so would be passed into prices).

I'd be a major winner but I'm not sure it's that fair.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
PG wrote:
gooner wrote:
Wouldn't the more logical step be to scrap it entirely and put he tax on fuel instead? Thus the more miles you do or the more thirsty your car is (or indeed how much lead is in your right boot), the more you pay.


You are totally 100% spot on.

However, that is far too sensible a view to ever be possible. It's so logical and simple that no politician could ever adopt it.  


Indeed, but that's a tax on Companies, Commuters and the road haulage industry (so would be passed into prices).

I'd be a major winner but I'm not sure it's that fair.


I think Gooner is absolutely right too (and they should have done it 20 years ago). However it isn't very future proof with people moving to electric/hydrogen cell where they would pay nothing.

A few years ago the morons in power suggested they might introduce road pricing with every journey logged. That was thankfully dropped due to personal privacy rights etc but the reasoning was that it didn't matter what your propulsion was, you would be charged.

I suppose we are just in a transition period for the next 15 to 20 years until non fossil fuelled cars become the norm.
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Bob Sacamano
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnC wrote:


I suppose we are just in a transition period for the next 15 to 20 years until non fossil fuelled cars become the norm.


I think with telematics built into all new cars you will just get a bill at the end of the month at so much per mile traveled. They can then use incentives to keep you out of city centres by upping the charge per mile at different times and moving you onto quieter roads with in traffic alerts - i.e pull off the A1 in 2 miles and complete your journey on the A19 and save 25% on your journey.
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gooner
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnC wrote:
gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
PG wrote:
gooner wrote:
Wouldn't the more logical step be to scrap it entirely and put he tax on fuel instead? Thus the more miles you do or the more thirsty your car is (or indeed how much lead is in your right boot), the more you pay.


You are totally 100% spot on.

However, that is far too sensible a view to ever be possible. It's so logical and simple that no politician could ever adopt it.  


Indeed, but that's a tax on Companies, Commuters and the road haulage industry (so would be passed into prices).

I'd be a major winner but I'm not sure it's that fair.


I think Gooner is absolutely right too (and they should have done it 20 years ago). However it isn't very future proof with people moving to electric/hydrogen cell where they would pay nothing.

A few years ago the morons in power suggested they might introduce road pricing with every journey logged. That was thankfully dropped due to personal privacy rights etc but the reasoning was that it didn't matter what your propulsion was, you would be charged.

I suppose we are just in a transition period for the next 15 to 20 years until non fossil fuelled cars become the norm.


You make a good point regarding alternative fuels but the same system could equally apply to the sale of hydrogen and is already added in the form of VAT paid on electricity, so in theory as we move to plug in electric or full electric cars we will still be taxed on the increased leccy bill.
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Tim
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Electric cars should have their own special tax for as long as the majority of electric is created by burning fossil fuels.
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Grampa
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still have no plans to change the Scirocco as it approaches its seventh birthday - still nothing on the market that interests me enough to want one, and VW have cocked up the Scirocco range so even buying a new one is not an option - but VED changes would not sway my decision at all - within an affordable budget, my only criteria for choosing a new car is: "Fuck - I want that!"
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grampa wrote:
I still have no plans to change the Scirocco as it approaches its seventh birthday - still nothing on the market that interests me enough to want one, and VW have cocked up the Scirocco range so even buying a new one is not an option - but VED changes would not sway my decision at all - within an affordable budget, my only criteria for choosing a new car is: "Fuck - I want that!"


As it should be!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racing Teatray wrote:
Grampa wrote:
I still have no plans to change the Scirocco as it approaches its seventh birthday - still nothing on the market that interests me enough to want one, and VW have cocked up the Scirocco range so even buying a new one is not an option - but VED changes would not sway my decision at all - within an affordable budget, my only criteria for choosing a new car is: "Fuck - I want that!"


As it should be!


+1

I don't know/care about the changes. I've not seen protests in the street so I'm guessing I can take the hit

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