The Motor Forum

DradusContact

After reading the paper today it seems large parts of the police force we are traning are now corrupt, the latest result being 5 soldiers killed while having their dinner.

If thats the case i cant see what were going to achieve.
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Mark

DradusContact · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject:

The whole thing seems self-defeating to me. The reason theyre attacking us is they want us out of the country. If we comply, then that would surely stop?
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Bob Sacramento · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject:

scamper · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject:

I'm along the same lines as Bob.

Just hope the big offensive recently pays dividends, considering our losses.

DetmoldDick · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:06 pm Post subject:

I work in a military instalation and one of the guys killed (the RSM) was a good buddy of one of the military permanent staff here.

This attack has hit morale harder, it seems, than any previous attack. The thing is that our guys cannot trust anyone any more.

I hope that we can recover from this kidney punch and take the fight back to the Taliban. The problem is we are not allowed to (be seen to) fight dirty. We are not even allowed to stop captured suspect Taliban from having a comfortable nights kip FFS.
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A thing of beauty is a joy forever; Keats.

TimR · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:37 pm Post subject:

Mark · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:15 pm Post subject:

DradusContact · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject:

Bob Sacramento · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject:

If Afghanistan falls to the Taliban, Pakistan will follow. A nuclear armed Taliban - that'll keep us all on our toes!
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Keep Calm & Carry On.

scamper · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject:

DradusContact · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:58 pm Post subject:

Whats the answer then? I think we need to pull out, gradually if needed, and start thinking of ourselves as a small (though still powerful) island. We cant police the world, the empire and the navy that created it are both gone.
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Mark · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject:

Bob Sacramento · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject:

Grampa

Mark · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject:

woof woof · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject:

I think that a big part of the problem is that the extremists know that we are politically weak and that there is growing political opposition to our involvement. They know that there is a significant amount of anti American imperialism / we shouldn't be their poodle / it's nothing to do with us feeling. They also know that public opinion is wavering and will waver more as the body count continues. They know that they can't win a straight fight but they think (and possibly correctly) that if they can keep the body count rising we'll eventually cut and run.

The extremists are very clued up on western political feeling and public opinion. There was an interview on R5 a while ago with a journalist or politician, I forget which, who was in touch with various Taliban leaders and he was amazed that the Taliban were better clued up than he was. They knew everything. The fact that our guy was amazed amazes me and shows how naive we are. We don't seem to realise that they follow our media and political and public opinion. Our division and the frequent questioning of our involvement are noted and influences their tactics and as a result our troops are specifically targeted. It's a strategy which sadly is highly likely to succeed IMHO.

I think that it's all doomed to failure. We don't seem willing to send enough troops with good enough equipment to do the job and the mission is constantly questioned and criticised. I think what'll happen is we'll hand territory over to half trained army and police and run like the wind in a thinly disguised cut and run, like we did in Iraq. If that happens and if America does the same I fear we'll see carnage and mass abuse of human rights and we'll wring our hands and say how terrible it all is and blame Tony Blair and George Bush.

What it'll mean in the future I don't know, the west (excluding America) seems too weak to confront extremists and mass violators of human rights. As Bob says, maybe India will do something, maybe another nation. I thought after 9/11 that the world was in for a major war and I think that what we've seen since 9/11 and the very limited wars and war on terror are nothing to what could happen because we don't seem to want to accept that the extremists need to be stopped.
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woof woof's defence lawyer claimed that "Booze played no part in his typo's."

Confucius says "all reckless speeding is caused by accidents."

Chris M Wants a V-10 · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject:

I believe that there were rumours that there were minerals to be found in Afghanistan. Rather than let the Russians invade first, the Yanks decided to go in and somehow they conned us that there was another, legitimate reason to invade (the war on terror).
Sad to think that this war has been going on longer than the Second World War now :-(
Totally pointless exercise at great loss of life. There are no winners in war
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Papped by Paul; London 2008-09-27

Apex clipper · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject:

Apex clipper · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject:

Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that the people we believe we can convert, to a western democracy are little more than tribal..and that's being polite.

How do you destroy a concept as deeply rooted as a religious indoctrination...simple answer is..you can't.

Not forgetting the very fact that the president of the USofA signs off his rabble rousing (For all the world too see) with those immortal words.

GOD PLEASE AMERICA.

The soldiers were 'slotted' due to the infiltration of all government security services right from the grass roots all the way to the very top.
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Minky Moo & Millie Maloo.

Mark · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:39 pm Post subject:

Mark · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:40 pm Post subject:

Frank Bullitt · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject:

scamper · Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:50 pm Post subject:

Back to the OP apparently several others were badly injured in the shooting as well as the fatalities.

Gooner · Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:09 pm Post subject:

I think the trouble is we're in far too deep to just pull out but we're now in a situation where we're trying to bring order and control to a nation that just doesn't want to help itself and appears rather ungrateful for our pathetic attempts at doing them a favour.

What really angers me is the fact that several of our soldiers lost their lives and many more were maimed trying to make the country safe for those who wished to vote in the presidential election only for it to be rigged and the country become ruled by someone who cheated their way into office. What was the point of our soldiers putting their lives on the line for a sham election?

But what is the solution? Can we really just pull out and hope that all is well? The trouble is we can't, just as America found in Vietnam. There is no solution and we can't make safe a country where many of the general population are willing to die for the fight against the west.
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- Insert clever and/or amusing quote here -

'G' · Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:15 am Post subject:

A local on the bus openly opined that we are there to kill 'Chocos' and 'Rag-heads' before they destroy anymore public buildings, trains and buses in the the western democracies.

"Well, what other reason would we deploy such weaponry?" he followed up in his assumptions

"Well defensive reasons, to support a police action wiv the Americans. Innit." a chap in his sport suit defended unaware he ruined his reasonable quote by saying 'innit' at the end of his sentence and mispronouncing 'with'.

"A Police action? In support of what?" argued a young chap in a duffel coat and surprisingly long beard on such a long face, without removing his IPod

"Quick! He's one of those Taliban!" screamed the passengers. The bus squealed to a halt. everybody leaped off in fear for their lives. The young bearded chap looked up from from his IPod.

"Has the bus broken down?" he asks without reply. "Heeelllllloooooo.... I'll bloody walk then." he petulently stamps unaware of the reaction to his moody response

Thus the Great British public displays it knowledge of World events.
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"The multiplying villainies of nature do swarm upon him."

Boxer6 · Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:33 am Post subject:

'G' · Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:03 am Post subject:

Oh, everyone picks on the Murcans, but they're awfully nice chaps, really.

And they have a nice flag and say, 'Have a nice day' even when they don't mean it, but never tell you to 'Fuck off' and mean it.

Which is nice.
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"The multiplying villainies of nature do swarm upon him."

Mark · Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:33 am Post subject:

What's a Murcan?

Boxer6 · Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:58 am Post subject:

'G' · Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject:

Hey yeah!! Lets hear it for Uncle Sam!
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"The multiplying villainies of nature do swarm upon him."

Boxer6 · Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject:

DB · Running In Joined: 06 Jan 2007 Posts: 71

I just think that much of the opposition to war comes from an over-simplistic viewpoint. The only people who really know the threat to the UK and therefore why we are there, are the security services and the government. To a degree our presence in Afghanistan and Iraq are classic cases of the ‘horse has already bolted’. If we knew that we could have prevented Sept 11th by going in sooner, would there be so much opposition?

The loss of life is clearly tragic, but these are professional soldiers many of whom would actually want to see active duty during their service – it is what they trained for. Whilst not trying to belittle their sacrifice, how many young men/women are killed on the roads every year? Dying at the side of the road is far more of a waste of life, than soldiers who give their life to save many others – this is what is boils down to.

I actually think it is hugely disrespectful to those serving that there is so much opposition to the war at home. These soldiers need their whole nation behind them.

DradusContact · Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject:

Scouse · Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject:

scamper · Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:58 pm Post subject:

[quote="DradusContact"]

DB · Running In Joined: 06 Jan 2007 Posts: 71

I think that it is dead right that the coverage of war seems to focus on the casualties which just gives the anti-warists all the amunition (sorry!) they need. The coverage should absolutely cover the casualties, but as DC says we should be told about the successes.

I also don't doubt the overwhelming support in the country for the armed forces, but I think the support has to exist for the cause as well as the soldiers. 'You are doing a great job, but the the mission is pointless/not our problem/policitcally motivated/unwinnable', I don't think is very supportive.

woof woof · Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject:

It does seem odd that the good work being done receives next to no publicity. I don't know why this is the case other than that it's possibly because doing good doesn't fit with the liberal anti war and anti intervention point of view.
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woof woof's defence lawyer claimed that "Booze played no part in his typo's."

Confucius says "all reckless speeding is caused by accidents."

TimR · Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:13 pm Post subject:

Big TC · Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject:

TimR · Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject:

DradusContact · Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject:

TimR · Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject:

PG · Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject:

I've read a few of the biographies and books on Afghanistan recently. The thing that comes out of the Afghan ones is that it across that very little is actually being achieved in a long term way.

When ground is won from the Taliban, there are not enough troops to hold it. And if the Afghan army or police are asked to hold it they soon lose it or need help to hold it. so the actions seems to consist of what was described as "advance to ambush" in typical black military humour. Our troops advance into Taliban country. They get hit by IED's or they get ambushed. If ambushed they fight the Taliban off and then withdraw. Then do the same another day. The army people seem absolutely scathing about the government funded aid agencies that sit in Kabul with the billions of redevelopment money doing f*ck all, as they claim it is too dangerous to go "in country". Like the UN pulling back to fortress Kabul after the recent killings.

If we are going to be in Afghanistan, then we need to be their fully and seriously, in strength. Then we can properly hold ground and carry out rebuilding. Otherwise we are just fighting a low level campaign of attrition which costs lives and is unlikely to achieve any real success.

The US surge in Iraq was hugely unpopular with many people but it did seem to hit the insurgents much harder. And looking back at Vietnam, the US only had success there when they went at it hard - eg bombing North Vietnam to cut supply lines for the Viet-Cong. When they tried to "scale back" they lost.

Apex clipper · Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: