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PhilD
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My Car: Fiat Grande Punto Sporting

Joined: 10 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:27 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Frank Bullitt wrote:


The engine in Phil's Punto is the 120bhp 8v Multijet unit.


*cough cough*

130bhp...

It's a crappy engine to be honest. Loads of grunt but only for about 0.5 seconds, makes an awful racket, and only achieves 45mpg. Having said that it will always deliver 45mpg regardless of how you drive it and you can fill it to the roof and it will drive up the side of mountains and cruise happily at 80.78 mph for hours on end.
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Frank Bullitt
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right (of course) another 10bhp was liberated for the Sporting!

Sounds familiar to the unit in my old Punto JTD although that would easily get 55mpg however I drove although that had full power at 3000rpm so it was all 900-3000rpm
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Chocy Rocky
Turbocharged

My Car: His and hers red VWs

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Location: Athens of the North

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks good and I'm with you. The less plate on show, the better.
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Roadsterstu
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My Car: threelitreturbosixallwheeldrive

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank Bullitt wrote:
That list isn't entirely accurate as it basically takes account of all engines using the same 1910cc block but a lot of those are the old JTD units which are really quite different.

The engine in Phil's Punto is the 120bhp 8v Multijet unit.


Damn you, Wikipedia!
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Blarno
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My Car: The Flying Glacier Mint

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that a common issue with the Z19DTH engine is the impellers on the water pump loosening off and not spinning correctly at high engine loads, causing brief overheating moments and pressurising. This only seems to be on the 150 bhp models as they have plastic impellers.

Guess what mine did today?

Still, gives me an excuse to spanner it and change the cambelt early.
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Chris M Wanted a V-10
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My Car: C-Max'D, CapturD and GOK the Wok

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blarno wrote:
It seems that a common issue with the Z19DTH engine is the impellers on the water pump loosening off and not spinning correctly at high engine loads, causing brief overheating moments and pressurising.

So, the car has a name now, "The Impeller"

I thought this was quite common, VW engines are known to suffer from overheating due to plastic impellers on metal shafts.  There really ought to be a law against that type of bad design.  When I had the Galaxy cambelt changed, I had the waterpump and tensioner done at the same time, was only about £40 extra and IMHO was worth it for peace of mind
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There don't appear to be any pumps available with a metal impeller either. I'm half tempted to have a proper look at the impeller and see how easy it would be to have one machined by our friendlty machine shop.

A genuine cambelt kit is around £100 with the pump, so I'm not too fussed. Even better, there is a genuine SAAB specialist not 5 minutes from where I work, so I may break my own self-imposed no garage rule and drop it in there. Most fora suggest that £350 is the average all in price using genuine parts.
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Tim
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's probably a long shot but would the Alfa V6 water pump go on?
That has a metal impeller.
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done a lot of digging over the weekend and the only pump that fits it the one designed for it - IE, the one with the plastic impeller.

Had a good chat with the local SAAB specialist today and he advised me to change the thermostat first - this makes sense as the pipe from the bottom of the rad to the thermostat is getting rock hard under pressure, telling me the stat isn't opening. For the sake of £40 and a hour of my time this evening, I consider it worth it. If it doesn't fix the issue, then I have a new thermostat and I'll just change the pump/cambelt.
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it turns out I was slightly wrong.

I ordered a cambelt kit with water pump and it had metal impellers. As did the one I removed from the engine block. There was actually nothing wrong with the old pump, but it's not worth the risk of not changing it, especially for the price.

So, I did a pump, belt and tensioner change today. Took my time, double and triple checked everything, many cups of tea. It now works sweet as a nut, plenty of controllable air from the blower and no overheating/pressurising.

I think the original issue was a culmination of a few things - the pump was ok, but the tensioner was a little bit loose and the belt only drives the pump by friction, so being a bit loose could have made the belt slip on the pump pulley. There was a marked difference in the amount of water passing through the bleed rail once the new pump/belt had been fitted. Also, I only managed to drop 2.5 litres of coolant from the car.

It should have 7.5 litres in.

I also changed the thermostat.
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Roadsterstu
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Result!
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wasn't all plain sailing! On my second drive out afterwards, I got a low coolant warning. So, I popped home to top up and went back out. Gave it the beans off a roundabout and POP!

Lost pretty much all power.

Blew a turbo hose off the intercooler and had to limp home at 15mph. Turns out I'd not quite pushed it far enough onto the pipe and had tightened it right on the lip.

Lesson learned.
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further update. It seems that changing the pump and stat only masked the real issue, which appears to be a blown head gasket. Overheated 3 times last Saturday and pressurised up to buggery - stuck the sniff tester onto the coolant tank and it showed traces of combustion gases in the coolant. I tried again 2 more times to be sure, both positive.

Drained the coolant out on Thursday (Which was brand new when I changed the water pump) and it stunk of exhaust gases. Case closed.

Flushed it all out, no blockages anywhere and no leaks.

So today I began the arduous task of stripping everything off the engine remove the cylinder head. Off came the cambelt again. Injectors, fuel rail, cams. I still have to remove all the lifters and tappets (and keep them in ouil, in order), the inlet manifold, turbo and DPF. All that just to find out which head gasket it actually needs (there are 3 different ones apparently and the only identifier is a punched hole that is only visible once the head is off). After that it should be plain sailing - the friendly machinist who makes all our alloy parts should be able to skim the head if needed - and the gasket/bolt set is only about £100 tops. †Factoring all that in, I'll still only have spent the window price of the car all in, so I'm not too unhappy really. I have a 93 Aero to blat around in for 6 weeks, so I can take my time and do it right, it's been 15 years since I last did a head gasket.




I also, finally, got my git plate back from DVLA so the new and improved short plates went on this morning as well. Small victories and all that.




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Chip Butty
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you buy this from a dealer ?

Shouldn't they be paying to sort this ?, or have you agreed to do it yourself (properly) if they give you some cash back ?
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was a trade to trade deal.

Either way, I'd rather fix it myself than trust a garage I don't know.
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Roadsterstu
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top spannering  
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Big Blue
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whenever I look at the open bits of a 4 stroke engine I remember why I raced 2 strokes.

Top job.
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TreVoR
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My Car: Probably Broken

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am so glad I am powered by a four cylinder pushrod donkey from the 90s.  Modern engines can be a PITA to work on with all the bits and pieces on them.
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Martin
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My Car: BMW 535d M Sport & Boxster 987.2

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am so glad I'm powered by an engine that I don't have to touch at all and doesn't need anything other than regular servicing.  †Not that I could, even if it was simple.

Impressive stuff Blarno.
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PG
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TreVoR wrote:
I am so glad I am powered by a four cylinder pushrod donkey from the 90s. †Modern engines can be a PITA to work on with all the bits and pieces on them.


Last head gasket I did on my own was an 850 Mini in 1979 - which I just about managed. And I've done a V8 Rover with mechanic friend help.  

But the photos of that Saab engine just make me go weak at the knees with fear....

"Top spannering" is an understatement.
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PhilD
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My Car: Fiat Grande Punto Sporting

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hang on, we only have evidence of an engine being taken apart, I reckon I could do that bit! Putting back together again is a different matter all together...  
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Martin
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a good point, but it is good work so far.  I was a bit concerned when Blarno said he had 6 weeks to do the job, that doesn't bode well.  I work with enough people who aren't natural 'completer finishers' for the alarm bells to strart ringing!
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 'courtesy car' for 6 weeks, so I don't have to kill myself getting it done straight away. I've not touched it since Saturday due to having a really bad cold virus. Hopefully will crack on tomorrow.
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Chris M Wanted a V-10
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blarno wrote:
Hopefully will crack on tomorrow.

Surely the last thing you want at the moment is a cracked head ???
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franki68
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blarno wrote:
It seems that a common issue with the Z19DTH engine is the impellers on the water pump loosening off and not spinning correctly at high engine loads, causing brief overheating moments and pressurising. This only seems to be on the 150 bhp models as they have plastic impellers.

Guess what mine did today?

Still, gives me an excuse to spanner it and change the cambelt early.


And in English please ?
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Chris M Wanted a V-10
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

franki68 wrote:

And in English please ?

There is a problem with many of the engines fitted to the make/model of car that I have just bought.
Mine started to exhibit this problem today.
I'll be fixing it myself and doing some other work to the engine at the same time.

Damn !
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Chris said.
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PG
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blarno wrote:
I have a 'courtesy car' for 6 weeks, so I don't have to kill myself getting it done straight away. I've not touched it since Saturday due to having a really bad cold virus. Hopefully will crack on tomorrow.


So in about 5 weeks 5 days all hell will break loose then.... and 24 hour shifts will commence. After all, why do today what you can panic about tomorrow.  
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PhilD
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My Car: Fiat Grande Punto Sporting

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm waiting for the "I have decided to fit a V8 instead" post.
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope! Back on it tonight. Hope to get the inlet and exhaust manifolds off. I even have some powerful LED spotlights so I can keep going once it gets dark.
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, after a week of a shit cold and not wanting to work of an evening, even with super powerful LED spotlights, I flew back into it today and finally got the head off.





Cylinder 4 is the culprit, as can be seen from the rusty water on top of the piston. The gasket appears to be ok, but it has clearly been leaking exhaust side.

As part of the removal operation, I had to remove the entire inlet manifold. A few on here may occasionally have heard me griping about EGR systems and why there are a load of shit. Here's why:







That's a lot of black carbon shit. It's all very well not wanting shit coming out of the exhaust, but pumping it back into the inlet manifold (the clean side of the engine) is a recipe for disaster. This is a fully historied and well-maintained car as well, it's going to take a good old clean. Next step once it's back up and running is getting the EGR written out of the ECU software, it's a bugger to get this manifold off and I don't fancy doing it again any time soon.
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Michael
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blarno wrote:


That's a lot of black carbon shit. It's all very well not wanting shit coming out of the exhaust, but pumping it back into the inlet manifold (the clean side of the engine) is a recipe for disaster.


Global disaster vs. Repairable car...
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilst waiting for the new head gasket and bolts to arrive (£50 all in, can't complain), I set about cleaning the shite out of the inlet manifold. After completely blocking the filter in the work's parts washer, I decided to use an old school remedy - Mr Muscle Oven cleaner. Spray it in, leave it an hour, scrub it a bit with a bottle brush and rinse it out with the hose pipe:





Night and day difference, even on my crappy non-flash phone camera. And hopefully, this little bugger will help prevent it from ever looking like that again for a long time:



At least until I get it remapped and the EGR somehow 'disappears' from the ECU....
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JohnC
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good work Blarno. I hope it won't be long before it is back up and running - probably better than ever with all that crap removed.
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The new gasket and bolts has just landed on my desk, I will crack on with cleaning up the block and head with a view to fitting that tonight.
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


One shiny and very black super duper OE quality gasket....



...sandwiched under a relatively clean cylinder head. That's the fun part over and done with, I just need to remember where all the rest of the bits go.
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Michael
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm genuinely impressed you've done this.
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Needs must, this Aero is costing me a fortune in fuel!
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Bob Sacamano
Nuclear

My Car: BMW 320d M Sport Auto

Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 11884



PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blarno wrote:

One shiny and very black super duper OE quality gasket....



...sandwiched under a relatively clean cylinder head. That's the fun part over and done with, I just need to remember where all the rest of the bits go.


Remember. it's not a proper job unless there's a few surplus bits left over.
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Roadsterstu
Nuclear

My Car: threelitreturbosixallwheeldrive

Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 12728


Location: Over there.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a proper job unless you have it almost finished then drop a bolt into somewhere deep and inaccessible, requiring it to be all stripped down again.
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Blarno
Cheapskate Know-it-all

My Car: The Flying Glacier Mint

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 17038


Location: The Shores of Hell

PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Inlet manifold, EGR, swirl flap motor, diesel pump and vacuum pot now fitted. Managed just under 2 hours on it tonight thanks to some beefy LED floodlights.
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Giant wrote:
Blarno is right
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Roadsterstu
Nuclear

My Car: threelitreturbosixallwheeldrive

Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 12728


Location: Over there.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope it starts when you have finished.
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Chris M Wanted a V-10
Supercharged

My Car: C-Max'D, CapturD and GOK the Wok

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 7160


Location: Captur'd by 1 5UMO near Camberley. Forum F1 champ 2011 and 2015

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What causes a head gasket to blow in the first place - uneven wear in the engine causing odd cylinder pressure differences, manufacturuing defect in the gasket material or ???
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gonnabuildabuggy
Nuclear

My Car: Sorted for E's

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 12069


Location: Somewhere, rounadabouts

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very impressed.

This and recent events elsewhere convince me more and more that the age of the cheaply fixed car is over.

So they will become even more disposable.....but it's an expensive item to make disposable.

How long before the laws of supply and demand hit residuals even harder?

There will always be the odd exception but this and the rise of the electric car would make me think long and hard about sinking too much cash into a new/used car.

PCP/Lease is fine as at least you can hand it back without further loss.
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Bob Sacamano
Nuclear

My Car: BMW 320d M Sport Auto

Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 11884



PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
Very impressed.

This and recent events elsewhere convince me more and more that the age of the cheaply fixed car is over.

So they will become even more disposable.....but it's an expensive item to make disposable.

How long before the laws of supply and demand hit residuals even harder?

There will always be the odd exception but this and the rise of the electric car would make me think long and hard about sinking too much cash into a new/used car.

PCP/Lease is fine as at least you can hand it back without further loss.


Dunno about that. As long as a chimp with a spanner can fix a SAAB we'll be OK.




























kidding! I'll get me coat.
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Big Blue
Nuclear

My Car: Alpina B5 BiTurbo Touring Nr15 (The Gorilla); Yamaha R1 (the Black Whanger); The E46 323i With No Name

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 10861


Location: SW1. Back where I belong.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think hair colour dictates that Blarno is more Oran Utang than chimp......

Either way, noble animals.
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Blarno
Cheapskate Know-it-all

My Car: The Flying Glacier Mint

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 17038


Location: The Shores of Hell

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn right. I don't have a monkey tattooed on my back for no reason.
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Morbid Obesity: Debut album "Shallow Gravy" due...work in progress.

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Pathway - Punk. Loud. Probably crap.

Giant wrote:
Blarno is right
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Blarno
Cheapskate Know-it-all

My Car: The Flying Glacier Mint

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 17038


Location: The Shores of Hell

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to be doing rather well with regards to weather (very mild and dry of an evening) and my own desire to get things done (Usually once I've got home and had a brew, I don't want to do anything). Another hour and a half of floodlit spannering yielded the completion of the inlet side of the engine and the fitting of the manifold, turbo, cat and downpipe. Pretty much the only large parts to do are the lifters, cams and belts. The rest is just some pipework and plugging things in.



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Sphincteral Twitch: Debut EP "Disastrous Rectal Misfortune" work in progress.

Morbid Obesity: Debut album "Shallow Gravy" due...work in progress.

Spiderpuncher - A seedy trip into electro industrial madness.

Pathway - Punk. Loud. Probably crap.

Giant wrote:
Blarno is right
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Big Blue
Nuclear

My Car: Alpina B5 BiTurbo Touring Nr15 (The Gorilla); Yamaha R1 (the Black Whanger); The E46 323i With No Name

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 10861


Location: SW1. Back where I belong.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top man. Let's start an endurance team and do Le Mans, or if you fancy bike engines the Bol d'Or
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gooner
Twin-charged

My Car: Insignia low tax special and Fiat Panda Eleganza

Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 8923


Location: here, there and every bloody where!

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just seen one reversing in Sainburys, the white frosted rear lights looked a lot better than I remembered.


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