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PhilD
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Blarno wrote:
240Kg!

That's 3 of me.


or the average S class passenger.
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Twelfth Monkey
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Citroen C4 Grand Picasso:

Claimed 1,430.
Actual 1,685.

I think 255 is the biggest lie so far but as a percentage, that's a bad joke. †Just under 18% heavier than claimed. †That's nearly a sixth of its weight FFS!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Citroen C4 Grand Picasso:

Claimed 1,430.
Actual 1,685.

I think 255 is the biggest lie so far but as a percentage, that's a bad joke. †Just under 18% heavier than claimed. †That's nearly a sixth of its weight FFS!


18% is well over a sixth, Twelfth!  
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Citroen C4 Grand Picasso:

Claimed 1,430.
Actual 1,685.

I think 255 is the biggest lie so far but as a percentage, that's a bad joke. †Just under 18% heavier than claimed. †That's nearly a sixth of its weight FFS!


Like the Peugeot before, Citroen quote two weights for their cars - 'kerb weight' and 'mass in service' which includes fluids, driver and so on; Citroen quote 1430kg kerb weight but 1705kg mass in service - Citroen don't pretend a C4 Grand Picasso 2.0HDi manual that is driveable weighs 1430kg, shame the lazy hacks at AutoCrap can't read the brochure...

P.s. That makes another PSA product under the quoted weight.
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hang on, how much fluid is that? Count 75 kg for the driver and that's 200 Kgs of fluids.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of big cup holders.
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Alf McQueef
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Citroen C4 Grand Picasso:

Claimed 1,430.
Actual 1,685.

I think 255 is the biggest lie so far but as a percentage, that's a bad joke. †Just under 18% heavier than claimed. †That's nearly a sixth of its weight FFS!


Like the Peugeot before, Citroen quote two weights for their cars - 'kerb weight' and 'mass in service' which includes fluids, driver and so on; Citroen quote 1430kg kerb weight but 1705kg mass in service - Citroen don't pretend a C4 Grand Picasso 2.0HDi manual that is driveable weighs 1430kg, shame the lazy hacks at AutoCrap can't read the brochure...

P.s. That makes another PSA product under the quoted weight.


So basically they quote a total lie but stick in small print to tell the truth for people clever enough to spot it. Des that make it OK?

I don't know how this has got so complicated - the EU thing with luggage and a driver is bollocks too - cant they just quote the weight of the car as it would be when you were about to stick fuel in it and drive it? If you look up historic figures databases tend to just say "weight" - is that EU, magic PSA number , or what?
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Twelfth Monkey
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must admit I'm with Autocar on this, the only weight that should be quoted is one in which the car will actually work.  And it must be a lie that the difference between the dry weight and usable weight is 250kgs+.  Fuel and oil will be a fraction of that much.

Still, my maths wasn't much better!
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PhilD
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuel tank will be about 60 litres and diesel is less dense than water so under 60kg.

Maybe Citroen realises (quite rightjy) that there will never just one person I a Picasso! So let's say one woman and two kids, that's another 100kg. The other 100kg is shopping, pushchair, toys, baby seat, bikes, lifestyle, lift for BB...
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alf McQueef wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Citroen C4 Grand Picasso:

Claimed 1,430.
Actual 1,685.

I think 255 is the biggest lie so far but as a percentage, that's a bad joke. †Just under 18% heavier than claimed. †That's nearly a sixth of its weight FFS!


Like the Peugeot before, Citroen quote two weights for their cars - 'kerb weight' and 'mass in service' which includes fluids, driver and so on; Citroen quote 1430kg kerb weight but 1705kg mass in service - Citroen don't pretend a C4 Grand Picasso 2.0HDi manual that is driveable weighs 1430kg, shame the lazy hacks at AutoCrap can't read the brochure...

P.s. That makes another PSA product under the quoted weight.


So basically they quote a total lie but stick in small print to tell the truth for people clever enough to spot it. Des that make it OK?



Nope. Anyone actually taking the time to read the C4 Picasso tech spec in the brochure will be totally aware of the figure - they are quoted next to each other on the 'weights' section - the fact they call one 'kerb weight' is a moot point but only a halfwit wouldn't be able to tell how much their car would be expected to weigh in normal operation - or an AutoCrap journo, which may be the same thing.
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PG
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are rules for just about everything else. I don't see that "weight" can't be one of them?
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Alf McQueef
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is an EU standard for this: "unladen EU weight" which seems hard to Google officially but if the third-parties are right it seems to be the weight of the car ready to drive with 90% fuel and 75kg added for the driver.

Which just makes it more complicated - why include a driver, and why not either a full tank of fuel or no fuel? A % is a bit weird. All fluids plus a full fuel tank is what most people are expecting for "kerb weight" I think.

Fuel weighs less than water as people have said - 55kg is about the most a tank of fuel is going to weigh. Add in a few litres of oil and water and how the hell do manufacturers get their dry weights as light as they are? And kerb weight is clearly meant to mean ready to drive so where the hell do people like Citroen get their very light kerb weights? No fuel I could forgive them, maybe, but they are much less than that.

It is hard to find figures for all but current cars on sale from the OEM's, so we turn to third parties for figures, and they just grab any of these "weight" figures at random without naming them correctly. You can't blame them for taking "kerb weight" as that is the most commonly used one - but some are taking EU kerb weight as kerb weight, and others are taking the figures  like the BS Citroen ones mentioned. For this reason I don't know how much my car weighs.  

It's never easy, is it? Mountain bike OEM's often refuse to quote weight for similar reasons, and you'd think a bloody bicycle would be easy enough! But it's not, there are different sizes and paint types, some quote without pedals (as they tend to come without them) and so on...


Last edited by Alf McQueef on Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Resident Spanner
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blarno wrote:
Hang on, how much fluid is that? Count 75 kg for the driver and that's 200 Kgs of fluids.



They cheat these days, it includes battery fluids and gels -you've got to watch that with hybrids too! - as well as silicone fluid in the engine mounts and in some case the soundproofing if it's gel form too! -
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ghibli Diesel.

Quoted 1835kg.
As tested 2040 kg.
Excess 205kg/11.17%.

I take it that large capacity diesels with their Thoresque torque outputs need drivetrains made from granite?  In 12thland, a 5-series competitor just shouldn't weigh that much.
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PhilD
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Ghibli Diesel.

Quoted 1835kg.
As tested 2040 kg.
Excess 205kg/11.17%.

I take it that large capacity diesels with their Thoresque torque outputs need drivetrains made from granite? †In 12thland, a 5-series competitor just shouldn't weigh that much.


it does look chunky
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Blarno
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fact hunt.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's insane ... I wouldn't even expect the QP to weigh that much
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What possible reason could Citroen have for quoting a weight minus all fluids and in a condition that it couldn't even be delivered in off the line other than to deceive? The industry needs to standardise on a weight with a full complement of fluids, minus driver, passengers and luggage. That way people can make an informed decision.
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Twelfth Monkey
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seat Leon Cupra.

Quoted 1,441 kg.
As tested 1,400 kg.

Yep, that's under...
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Big Blue
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Seat Leon Cupra.

Quoted 1,441 kg.
As tested 1,400 kg.

Yep, that's under...


Which bits did they forget to fit?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Seat Leon Cupra.

Quoted 1,441 kg.
As tested 1,400 kg.

Yep, that's under...


Spain's in recession you know.
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Boxer6
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Sacamano wrote:
What possible reason could Citroen have for quoting a weight minus all fluids and in a condition that it couldn't even be delivered in off the line other than to deceive? The industry needs to standardise on a weight with a full complement of fluids, minus driver, passengers and luggage. That way people can make an informed decision.


Herself and I attended a trailer towing seminar run by the British Horse Scoiety on Saturday. One of the main ways people can get caught (out) by VOSA inspectors is by exceeding the MAM of their car/SUV-trailer combo. If you base your calculations on what manufacturers are claiming as the weight of your vehicle, hence eceeding the limit allowed for towing, you could land yourself with anything up to a £5K fine and removal of your vehicle from the road (at least - they can confiscate it completely!)

Incidentally, he listed the (relatively small) number of items he and his wife loaded on their 7.5 tonner, NOT including any outerwear for themselves, rugs or water for the horses. They only had 40kg left to play with!! Out of 7.5 tonnes! Makes you think...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Blue wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Seat Leon Cupra.

Quoted 1,441 kg.
As tested 1,400 kg.

Yep, that's under...


Which bits did they forget to fit?


Apparently around a third of the demo cars were recalled to get a new gearbox bracket fitted so maybe it was that?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Seat Leon Cupra.

Quoted 1,441 kg.
As tested 1,400 kg.

Yep, that's under...


Good try but you are not fooling me 12th!  
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Twelfth Monkey
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Golf R 1410 as tested, supposed to weigh 1495...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I mentioned in another thread (somewhere - can't recall which one) Herself and I went on a trailer towing course a couple of weekends ago. One of the major things about it was how to calculate the MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass) of the combination you are driving, which is done by totalling the weights of towing vehicle, trailer and everything you want to put inside them - including people, and right down to your dog(s) if you have them.

If you go by some of the weights manufacturers are telling you, it would be extremely easy to fall foul of VOSA inspectors - resulting in points, confiscation of vehicle and a fine of up to £5000!!  

Example: the fella doing the talk and his wife have two horses between them. Fitting both these into a 7.5 tonne float (lorry), complete with all the equipment, hay, rugs and their dog etc etc left him ÖÖ 40kg under his MAM! And that didn't include water for the horses, or food/drinks/clothes for them. Scary stuff, and shows that giving weights too low can be as bad (if not worse) than too high in some circumstances.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Golf R 1410 as tested, supposed to weigh 1495...


I'm astounded that VW can make an AWD Golf that weighs the same as a FWD Leon. Very impressive!
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Twelfth Monkey
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaaag F-Type V6 S Coupe.

Claimed: 1,594 kg.
As tested: 1,755 kg.
Excess: 161 kg/ 10.1%.

Both the claimed and as tested weights seem high to me, for a two-seat coupe with an aluminium monocoque and powered by a 'downsized' (hey, it's all relative!) and force-fed engine.  I can't see why that should weigh more than The Beast, which has four seats, a big boot, a V8 and four wheel drive.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking the same thing - I cannot comprehend how the F-Type can be so overweight. The only explanation is that they've done a deal with BNFL and are secreting small amounts of nuclear waste in a lead-lined box under the boot floor.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are big beasties when you are up close, itís no MX-5.

JLR do seem to make heavy cars, Iím going to stick my neck out and say itís because they use older tech/methods. No doubt GZ can put me right!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhilD wrote:
They are big beasties when you are up close, itís no MX-5.

JLR do seem to make heavy cars, Iím going to stick my neck out and say itís because they use older tech/methods. No doubt GZ can put me right!


The technology around construction is world leading but they do seem to make fatso's, perhaps all that refinement comes at a price?  I can't see how this weighs 1 and 3/4t.
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Twelfth Monkey
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The article made reference to the base 911, which they deemed a fair comparison, to have tipped the scales at 300kg less.  I wonder how that stacks up, size-wise.  The F Type is certainly wide, from the ones I have seen.
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PhilD
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank Bullitt wrote:
PhilD wrote:
They are big beasties when you are up close, itís no MX-5.

JLR do seem to make heavy cars, Iím going to stick my neck out and say itís because they use older tech/methods. No doubt GZ can put me right!


The technology around construction is world leading but they do seem to make fatso's, perhaps all that refinement comes at a price? †I can't see how this weighs 1 and 3/4t.


so they keep saying, but maybe the end product is too light and lacks that Jaguar/premium "feel" so they add some lead!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
The article made reference to the base 911, which they deemed a fair comparison, to have tipped the scales at 300kg less. †I wonder how that stacks up, size-wise. †The F Type is certainly wide, from the ones I have seen.


I parked next to a convertible in the Boxster and it was bigger in all dimensions, but not by anywhere near that sort of weight. †Maybe there is something big and heavy under the body and that's why there isn't any boot space!

I've read a long term report recently where they were moaning that it would accommodate two adults and two cabin bags, they couldn't even get one of the bags in on the passengers knee.  I know practicality isn't top of e list in a convertible sports car, but usability is and I think that would kill it for me, which is a real shame.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You get a lot of weight for your money in the US then. The TV ad says it starts at $65,000 (£38K).
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a V6 Roadster (couldn't tell if it was an S or not) outside our local yesterday, and there's no doubting it's a lovely thing.  Two observations, though:

- The bangs and pops from the exhaust after he initial flare of revs on startup sounded just the tiniest bit contrived, and

- It was still being driven by a guy in his late sixties or early seventies.  I guess that the steep UK pricing means that it's quite likely that the desired more to a younger demographic might be slower than would be hoped for.
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PhilD
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
There was a V6 Roadster (couldn't tell if it was an S or not) outside our local yesterday, and there's no doubting it's a lovely thing. †Two observations, though:

- The bangs and pops from the exhaust after he initial flare of revs on startup sounded just the tiniest bit contrived, and

- It was still being driven by a guy in his late sixties or early seventies. †I guess that the steep UK pricing means that it's quite likely that the desired more to a younger demographic might be slower than would be hoped for.


Remind me where you live? Down here in London Town I've seen lots driven by younger folk, though thats the same for a lot of exotica. I'm not jealous in the slightest... oh no...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a coupe at Prescott. I've never lusted over a car so much before. So much want!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at Ben's linked old tests, this is not a new phenomena;

1987 Vauxhall Cavalier SRi 130
Quoted - 1074kg
As tested - 1270kg

18.25% under-quoted.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the new Autocar test the Cupra has put on weight and the Golf R has lost some.

A really poorly written article, too. Having read it I was very surprised to see the Toymota in the top 3 because the write up intimated it wasn't that good around Cadwell. Also, they mentioned various times that they put a stopwatch on the cars, but then never printed the times.
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gooner
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simonp wrote:
In the new Autocar test the Cupra has put on weight and the Golf R has lost some.

A really poorly written article, too. Having read it I was very surprised to see the Toymota in the top 3 because the write up intimated it wasn't that good around Cadwell. Also, they mentioned various times that they put a stopwatch on the cars, but then never printed the times.


They also put on the cover that they were testing ALL it's rivals, yet the similarly priced and powerful Astra VXR was excluded in place of the Fiesta ST?
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simonp
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My Car: is silver again

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were so many thing wrong with that article!

What about the S3, new Impreza, Guilietta etc. There's also the video on their website that suggests the Leon is quicker and more fun to drive than the Golf and the silly equation thing where the top 3 were mostly in the bottom 5.

It will have to be a bloody special issue before I buy that mag again.


Last edited by simonp on Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JohnC
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has the look of an article which is pandering to the needs of someone or some thing and totally misses the fact that it should be written honestly for the motoring public.
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Alf McQueef
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like classic autocar. The needlessly hyberbolic headline (immediately refutable when you see cars half the price in the test), then very little actual copy and even less of it written by people that seem to know how to drive or car about real ownership of the cars concerned.
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Stuntman
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My Car: M3 Saloon, Cayman S and GT4

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Location: Cheltenham

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was at least slightly interesting. †You can read between the lines a bit when digesting the driving impressions, so you can probably form an opinion on whether each car is likely to be to your liking. †There was enough in there about ride, handling, traction and steering feel for me to distil it into a personal shortlist of two.
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Twelfth Monkey
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C220Bluetec AMG Line blah blah

Claimed 1,570kg
As tested 1,700kg.

What really gets on my tits is the continual claims for weight lost in comparison with previous models, which is supposed to be around 100kg model for model.  The previous one was supposed to weigh 1,660kg, so from what I can see it's only the claimed weights for which this is actually not a total fib.
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Tim
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My Car: is multiplying

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm shocked that a C Class sized car (in this case the C Class itself) weighs 1700kg.
I always think they're going to be around 1400.
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Martin
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim wrote:
I'm shocked that a C Class sized car (in this case the C Class itself) weighs 1700kg.
I always think they're going to be around 1400.


I'm the same.  Mine weighs 1580kg iirc, so has a claimed weight about the same as the new 'lightweight' C Class with a similar engine and 100kg less than the old model!  The new car has a claimed weight of 1925kg.....
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Chip Butty
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My Car: 2016 Disco 4 + 2004 S-type R

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgot to come back to this...

Why is an F-type so chunky ?

1) Based on an aluminium platform that dates back to the early 2000s (although has naff all to do with the XJS as that wally Sutcliffe tried to claim in one of his really good autocar videos) that was designed for a big, refined GT

2) This platform is effectively shortened and then heavily strengthened (key product attributes was class leading torsional stiffness - I think the coupe has one of the stiffest metal bodyshells ever)

3) It's fitted with huge supercharged V6 and V8 engines and still has the nod towards cruising refinement.

Why is an F-type so much heavier than a Coxstererra - are Porsche metallurgical gods ?

IMO - no. The fundamental difference between the Porsche and Jag products is the engine positioning and that completely negates fair comparison. Hanging a flat engine in the middle or at the back means that you don't have to worry about engine intrusion during those pesky mandatory crash tests. As a result the body structures are completely different and that has a huge effect on the resulting weight.

If you compare front engined Porsche vehicles to their competition, they are not obviously better or worse than the competition.

Autocar weighed a Panamera turbo at 2040 kgs and a LWB kitchen sink spec XJ diesel at 1960 kgs. Panamera is steel, 4wd and with a turbo V8, but the XJ is longer, with a standard panoramic glass roof (which is really heavy), and has a twin turbo diesel V6. It would be interesting to compare a base spec XJ diesel to base spec Panamera and 7 series diesels
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Twelfth Monkey
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't realise that the F-Type wasn't new from the ground up.  You live and learn.


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