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DradusContact
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 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| garry wrote: | | "..and now we have Bob from London, who smoked cannabis a few times without problem" |
Lol that would make good radio.
They arrested some lad on Road Wars on sunday night and he was sniffing 'coke' but it actually turned out to be chalk, it could be anything though.
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SpecB
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| garry wrote: | | SpecB wrote: |
What it boils down to is that nobody knows what sort of long term effect there is as it hasn't been studied long enough and not enough people admit to being regular users.
Comparing smoking weed to getting on a not entirely predictable semi domesticated animal is nonsense - it can be dangerous while your'e engaged in it but once you stop the danger is over and the risk has stopped. |
So I take it from this that you avoid modern medicine, foods and technology for the same reasons? |
I don't see how that is a relevant question but the answer is obviously not. Most modern medicine is trialled before being released on the public is it not?
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SpecB
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Frank Bullitt wrote: | | SpecB wrote: | To take the thread title literally, I love riding and it is a calculated risk every time I get on horse but with an element of unknown. If I do a competition then the adrenaline rush at the end is great and that is the best free, legal drug in the world.
I also like booze - in a different way - I find it relaxing but I can quite happily go out and not drink and if I don't have a drink in a while then that's fine.
The problem with illegal drugs is that some people seem to need them more and more and become dependent in a far more serious manner than they do to alcohol for example. |
I don't think the last bit represents the facts though - Alcohol, as a an adictive and legal drug is just as capable of destroying lives and indeed it does up and down the country day-in day-out. Now, that may not be the case for you but it's perfectly possible that relaxing drink you enjoy could be replaced by a nice spliff.
I knew people in my teens who took drugs and it wrecked their lives - I also knew plenty who took drugs and it didn't; the difference with the former is that they were always on a spiral of destruction and drugs were merely their tool; it could have been alcohol or any other addictive buzz. That's the point, their personalities were addictive, not the drugs. |
I suppose you are right but I imagine it would be different for different people.
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woof woof
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Garry - "My point is that you can take any topic and fill an hour on r2 with enough scare stories to fill you with fear. It would be crap radio if the show represented reality "..and now we have Bob from London, who smoked cannabis a few times without problem""
I think that the reality is there for anyone able to see it and that those who think that recreational drugs are "safe" are either idiots or in denial (obviously this is IMHO) based upon what I've seen first hand. Anyone who doesn't accept that there are real risks associated with drug taking is either an idiot or in denial (IMHO) and I can't say that I'm happy to let live and let live with something as disruptive as drugs. Although it's a tragedy for the family when a druggie suffers effects chances are that it doesn't affect me directly too much but a druggie let loose on society is a quality of life threatening thing, even a life threatening thing, and for selfish reasons I do wish that more people would simply either say no or take drugs and rot and die on their own time and expense with no inconvenience, cost or danger to me. If they can do that I'm truly happy for them.
Anyone who thinks that drugs are not disruptive, quality of life spoiling and even dangerous to others in society should think about drug associated organised and individual crime, the health and safety implications of drug residue and waste, the health and safety implications of performance degradation at work and on the roads and the drain on resources including the police, prisons, housing, welfare costs and healthcare.
As I'm usually all for choice and freedom with responsibility I have no real objection to drugs if people get into them through true personal and informed choice and if it doesn't affect me, my taxation or the facilities and services I use. Perhaps like track drivers druggies could take themselves off to some druggie centre in Europe, do their drugs and either die or come down again and then return home (only let back into the country if not suffering from mental or physical problems) until next time. Effect on me = nil.
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woof woof's defence lawyer claimed that "Booze played no part in his typo's."
Confucius says "all reckless speeding is caused by accidents." |
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garry
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| SpecB wrote: | | garry wrote: | | SpecB wrote: |
What it boils down to is that nobody knows what sort of long term effect there is as it hasn't been studied long enough and not enough people admit to being regular users.
Comparing smoking weed to getting on a not entirely predictable semi domesticated animal is nonsense - it can be dangerous while your'e engaged in it but once you stop the danger is over and the risk has stopped. |
So I take it from this that you avoid modern medicine, foods and technology for the same reasons? |
I don't see how that is a relevant question but the answer is obviously not. Most modern medicine is trialled before being released on the public is it not? |
Modern medicine goes through clinical trials. Cannabis has been through many clinical trials. The short term impact of both are well understood.
The point I was making is that lots of modern stuff has unknown long term implications - the mobile phone, the microwave, gm foods, sweeteners, statins, etc. Doesn't stop us using them though. |
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Skyhook
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Thalidomide anyone?
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garry
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| woof woof wrote: | | I think that the reality is there for anyone able to see it and that those who think that recreational drugs are "safe" are either idiots or in denial |
It really goes back to my initial post - Do I believe an eminent professor in the field or an ex postie.
You're suggesting that your anecdote-based view is more valid than a professor in the field. I respectfully disagree. |
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PG
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| "him" wrote: | | garry wrote: | | So I take it from this that you avoid modern medicine, foods and technology for the same reasons? |
Modern medicines are a "known" compound, illegal drugs are often cut with other less expensive drugs or who knows what... 
It is much more difficult to know the risks of something so variable. |
Drugs are variable because they are illegal. Like hooch in the prohibition days. There is no quality control, no legal requirements as to production and testing and so on. The growth of the mafia and organised crime in the US was driven by the prohibition era. We've just done the same with illegal drugs.
Whatever we may think the drug genie is out of the bottle. Therefore some from of decriminalisation, education, taxation and control of availability and strength are the only solution. And I say all that as a non-user. |
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Dr. Hfuhruhurr
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Skyhook wrote: | | Thalidomide anyone? |
No thanks, I'll stick with the booze if that's OK.
Seriously, some interesting points in this thread, but the parallel that always springs to mind is what happened when the US tried to make alcohol illegal. Firstly, it didn't stop people drinking. Secondly, it transferred distribution and production of alcoholic drink to organised crime. Thirdly, this meant the product itself wasn't subject to any standards. Finally, after a decade or so, the government gave up Prohibition as a bad idea. |
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SpecB
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| garry wrote: | | SpecB wrote: | | garry wrote: | | SpecB wrote: |
What it boils down to is that nobody knows what sort of long term effect there is as it hasn't been studied long enough and not enough people admit to being regular users.
Comparing smoking weed to getting on a not entirely predictable semi domesticated animal is nonsense - it can be dangerous while your'e engaged in it but once you stop the danger is over and the risk has stopped. |
So I take it from this that you avoid modern medicine, foods and technology for the same reasons? |
I don't see how that is a relevant question but the answer is obviously not. Most modern medicine is trialled before being released on the public is it not? |
Modern medicine goes through clinical trials. Cannabis has been through many clinical trials. The short term impact of both are well understood.
The point I was making is that lots of modern stuff has unknown long term implications - the mobile phone, the microwave, gm foods, sweeteners, statins, etc. Doesn't stop us using them though. |
I see what you are getting at - true.
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TimR
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Can I divert this slightly to my favourite 'risky' pastime of driving.
We've established that 'drugs are bad' and that booze is bad as well.
Since I never indulge in the former and rarely touch the latter why am I, as a road user, being targeted as some kind of international terrorist due to speeding on (usually empty) main roads while it seems that less plod = less likelihood of drunks being stopped and there appears to be little in place to identify those driving under the influence of drugs? |
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garry
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| TimR wrote: | Can I divert this slightly to my favourite 'risky' pastime of driving.
We've established that 'drugs are bad' and that booze is bad as well.
Since I never indulge in the former and rarely touch the latter why am I, as a road user, being targeted as some kind of international terrorist due to speeding on (usually empty) main roads while it seems that less plod = less likelihood of drunks being stopped and there appears to be little in place to identify those driving under the influence of drugs? |
The link is obvious. If drugs policies can be based on gut feel and anecdote then so can speeding policies. Radio 2 can just as easily get a whole host of people to appear and recount very sad tales of loss relating to motoring, mainly because the majority experience doesn't make for good radio "lets hear Bob from London telling us how he drove without any incident yet again!".
We let the government do stuff without reason because we're too stupid en masse to hold them to account. Look at the latest regulation around child protection. Because we've been brainwashed into believing that it's a much more dangerous world for our kids than it was for us (in spite of evidence that says the opposite) we're about to see a whole host of regulation that means driving your mates kids to school on a regular basis will require government clearance. |
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TimR
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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What I mean is, if drug taking is such an issue surely there should be more plod on the road to find it.
A camera is only good for 1 offence out of millions of possibles. |
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Dr. Hfuhruhurr
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| garry wrote: | | ... "lets hear Bob from London telling us how he drove without any incident yet again!". |
Despite smoking spliff a few times |
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Mrs Skyhook
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| woof woof wrote: | | It's amazing how many people who insist that cannabis has never done them any harm can't complete a sentence never mind string a few together. |
Must admit I've done a bit of weed in my time (and my sentences are perfectly strung together thankyouverymuch, I even get my apostrophes in the right place, usually) and it's never done me any harm. And I won't show up on any of the research as someone who doesn't have mental health issues despite using cannabis in the past because I've never come under the scrutiny of a doctor or the police. Most people who use or have used cannabis are more like me than the psychotic brain-dead Daily Mail readers like to think of when they hear the word 'cannabis'.
I have also ridden horses. And riding (or rather, falling off) a horse did do me some harm. Broken ankle. I never broke anything on cannabis, not even a glass.
I have long thought cannabis should be legalised. In fact, I think all drugs should be legalised, including heroin. Get it off the streets and make it easily and freely available in specialised clinics and wipe out a large proportion of drug gangs and drug crime in one hit. But this government would never grasp the nettle like that.
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woof woof
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: |
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If your experience is that "most" people who smoke it are performing to their true potential then there's probably an explanation somewhere, I'd guess strength of the stuff or length or frequency of use related. Moderation is the key to everything I suppose and I've never heard of anyone dying or suffering severe consequences from smoking one joint (but we should all know and accept that smoking is a stupid thing to do) but that can't be said for all drugs and we should all know by now that one ecstasy pill or one shot of heroin can put you in accident and emergency or kill you.
So, despite people who tell me that cannabis and other drugs are safe I think taking recreational drugs in general is sad and stupid and a needless stupid gamble and something that a well balanced individual should turn away from. If others disagree...fine, fill your boots... but please do it responsibly and don't commit crimes, drive, vomit in the street or leave your needles and crap where it can harm others.
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woof woof's defence lawyer claimed that "Booze played no part in his typo's."
Confucius says "all reckless speeding is caused by accidents." |
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Boxer6
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| woof woof wrote: | | all know by now that one ecstasy pill or one shot of heroin can put you in accident and emergency or kill you. |
Can, yes, but so rarely does it is statistically insignificant.
| woof woof wrote: | | So, despite people who tell me that cannabis and other drugs are safe I think taking recreational drugs in general is sad and stupid and a needless stupid gamble and something that a well balanced individual should turn away from. |
Does that include you abstaining from your chosen alcoholic beverages for the rest of your life then?
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woof woof
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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I drink now and again but I do so responsibly, see my earlier post about responsible freedom and not fooking up other peoples lives.
I don't believe that the instances of one ecstasy pill or shot of heroin causing problems are statistically insignificant but if you can show me a reliable source stating otherwise I'll gladly read it. Even so, if one shot can be deadly or life changing it's statistically significant to the statistically insignificant person and family it affects. As no one can be absolutely sure how many people take these drugs any figures could be questioned but from what I've heard and read statistically insignificant patients arriving at casualty at the weekend are common enough. If common enough is statistically insignificant or statistically significant I can't say.
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woof woof's defence lawyer claimed that "Booze played no part in his typo's."
Confucius says "all reckless speeding is caused by accidents." |
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Blarno
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Horseriding vs drugs:
Horses worry me. They're nice to look at, but I'd never want to ride one.
I'd rather be stoned than vegetablised after falling off a horse.
I agree with Mrs S regarding legalisation. Legalise them all, tax the bollocks off them and make them 'safe'. I've done my fair share of chemicals in the past, and suffered no lasting damage. Sure, I've had hallucinations here and there and driven a car when I shouldn't have done, but I've learnt from all of it. A life without risks is a very dull life. I don't touch anything stronger than vodka nowadays.
My main bugbear at the moment is the media hype about 'date rape drug' GBL. GBL is not a drug, it is an industrial solvent, used for the cleaning of PCBs and paintstripping. Anyone who is willingly putting this shit into their body deserves everything that is coming to them. Using GBL as a drug is like having a pint of Methanol just because it's alcoholic. As a result of all this crap, GBL is all but banned in this country, meaning we can no longer process it at work, potentially losing us a contract. Luckily, there's a similar solvent available (Ethyl Di Glycol, by the way, for all you 'mad for it clubbers' who want a new high.)
Unfortunately, as long as there are stupid people around, they will continue to pump illicit, illegal or downright barmy substances into their bodies.
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Boxer6
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| woof woof wrote: | I drink now and again but I do so responsibly, see my earlier post about responsible freedom and not fooking up other peoples lives.
I don't believe that the instances of one ecstasy pill or shot of heroin causing problems are statistically insignificant but if you can show me a reliable source stating otherwise I'll gladly read it. Even so, if one shot can be deadly or life changing it's statistically significant to the statistically insignificant person and family it affects. As no one can be absolutely sure how many people take these drugs any figures could be questioned but from what I've heard and read statistically insignificant patients arriving at casualty at the weekend are common enough. If common enough is statistically insignificant or statistically significant I can't say. |
Yes, but your point was people should stop using recreational drugs - alcohol is a recreational drug, as is tobacco. The only difference between those and Cannabis et al is that they're legal!
Someone has already said, as has been said for many years now, that if alcohol and tobacco were discovered today, they would be banned - and rightly so.
Oh, and re the "insignificant" deaths from Ecstasy etc - no death is insignificant to the families involved, and I would never suggest otherwise. What I am saying is, compared to, say, the number of road deaths every years, the number of deaths attributed to Ecstasy, Heroin or a number of other substances is negligible.
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DaveGibson
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| If alcohol had not been discovered, way back when, most of us would probably not be around, because our ancestors would have died of some waterborne disease. Instead, they drank alcoholic beverages, which, by the method of their production, killed off the bugs. |
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woof woof
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:32 am Post subject: |
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"Yes, but your point was people should stop using recreational drugs..."
No it wasn't babe. What I said was ...
"If others disagree...fine, fill your boots... but please do it responsibly and don't commit crimes, drive, vomit in the street or leave your needles and crap where it can harm others."
I don't do drugs, I think taking drugs is sad and stupid but each to his own and if people know the risks and keep out of my way and don't hurt others (as so many of them seem to do) why should I care if they waste their life?
I don't think it's the same as alcohol because in moderation alcohol does (arguably) little damage, if any, and some argue that a glass of wine now and again actually does you good. However, cannabis and ecstasy are variable and certainly not prescribed by a doctor knowing your medical history if you buy them from Dave in bogs and whereas one glass of wine wont kill you one dose of cannabis or ecstasy might and being arguably (and we wont agree here as I think that the number of deaths and serious consequences are significant) statistically irrelevant would be little comfort to the surviving family.
BTW, smoking tobacco is stupid too.
All IMVHO of course.
seems apt. 
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woof woof's defence lawyer claimed that "Booze played no part in his typo's."
Confucius says "all reckless speeding is caused by accidents." |
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garry
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| woof woof wrote: |
I don't believe that the instances of one ecstasy pill or shot of heroin causing problems are statistically insignificant but if you can show me a reliable source stating otherwise I'll gladly read it. |
You'll be pleased to know that such a study exists. It was featured on Horizon a while back and it listed the top substances based on harm, dependency and social problems. The list looks like this:-
1 Heroin
2 Cocaine
3 Barbiturates
4 Street methadone
5 Alcohol
6 Ketamine
7 Benzodiazepine
8 Amphetamines
9 Tobacco
10 Buprenorphine
11 Cannabis
12 Solvents
13 4-MTA
14 LSD
15 Methylphenidate
16 Anabolic steroids
17 GHB
18 Ecstasy
19 Alkyl nitrates
20 Khat
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/mult...8/Professor_Nutt_pape_638397a.pdf |
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"him"
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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I expected to see Methamphetamine ("crystal meth") on there somewhere, or is that not such a problem over here yet?
Or is it on the list under another name? 
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Last edited by "him" on Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DradusContact
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Is it
"15 Methylphenidate"
?
Not being 'with it' i wouldnt know.
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