The Motor Forum

TimR · Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:29 am Post subject:

They can't throw Renault out yet though.

Not until they've paid a whopping big fine to finance another private jet for some FIA suits.

PhilD · Running In Joined: 10 Jan 2007 Posts: 406

Gooner · Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject:

ds240 · Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:24 pm Post subject:

PhilD · Running In Joined: 10 Jan 2007 Posts: 406

Steady on chaps! and DS240, if we were having this conversation in the pub would you call me stupid?

Big Blue · Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:57 pm Post subject:

I'm with PhilD on this. It's a game an someone cheated, like taking an extra space on Ludo.

So all this legal action is being bandied around and it's a "sport" is it? Well, let's set some precedent for "sport" and let football teams sue referees for piss-poor decisions; let them sue diving players; have players extradicted on criminal charges for diving in the 'box and getting a match-turning penalty; FIFA could have a class action against them for not allowing instant televisual replays when the technology clearly exists....... I could go on for days and bring all "sports" into the argument.

This whole incident is just something that happens in F1. These are a load of big boys playing with toys and sometimes they want to take their ball home with a smile on their face so they cheat. Bernie is loving it: F1 is all over the back pages when there's no races; the saga will carry on into the close season and F1 will emerge as still THE place to spunk your sponsorship budget........

Flav needed to retire at some point and this gives him an "out" in a blaze of glory. Symonds will return in a year or two, much as Coughlin will be back next season.

And there are no stupid people; just those with differing views.
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ALF · Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject:

I don't think cheating of this sort is remotely acceptable, and that's before considering the safety implications.

It does seem the FIA have successfully got rid of their second most hated team leader, but if he was up to stuff like this then he deserves it. He seems a prize tool anyway.

It still irks me hugely that after giving McLaren such a massive penalty the FIA have suddenly gone all girly about punishing other teams. When chasing McLaren they made out that the sport was whiter than white - and it clearly is not. One rule for all, would be nice.

The crossover in technology from F1 to road cars - particularly humdrum FWD family cars like Renault make - is no minimal I really don't care if all the manufacturers clear off and leave the sport to racing teams who are in it for the long run.

Twelfth Monkey · Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject:

TimR · Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:36 pm Post subject:

Max Headroom · Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject:

I feel like I may be being just a whiff cynical but surely all these internecine shenanigins have been going on for as long as the sport has been around??

I have followed F1 for some thirty years now and I'm sure i see the ghostly hand of Bernie moving over circumstances. The soap opera of it all is meant to enhance the excitement??

Or is it me??

Big Blue · Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject:

DaveGibson · Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject:

It's long been thought that Ferrari, during the 3-litre formula, were allowed to run 4-litre engines at the Italian GP so that the crowd would have something to cheer.

Apex clipper · Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:23 pm Post subject:

PhilD · Running In Joined: 10 Jan 2007 Posts: 406

ds240 · Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:58 pm Post subject:

You'll note that my comments were not a direct phrase of 'you are stupid'.

It is a commenly used term 'are you stupid'... not a direct accusation, merely a statement to check your comment i.e surely your comments can't be said seriously.

Would I say it in a pub? suppose so, why not?.

The comment regards 'what have they done wrong', is still in my opinion some what odd. It is farily obvious, surely! Quite clear cheating.

If someone fitted a turbo and pushed put 1000bhp instead of 700-800bhp and were only found out later. Would that also be 'what have they done wrong'?

It's cheating, and very obviously so.

ps. philD, I think alex was questioning your comment, not mine. But I could be wrong in my interpretation.
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Apex clipper · Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject:

Who's alex?
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Minky Moo & Millie Maloo.

ds240 · Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:14 pm Post subject:

Gooner · Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:16 am Post subject:

I'm called Alex. In real that is. Here I'm just Gooner the keyboard warrior!
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Apex clipper · Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject:

PhilD · Running In Joined: 10 Jan 2007 Posts: 406

Ds240, I know AC was questioning my comment, I was agreeing to his comment about keyboard warriors (are you stupid?

)

I have not said at any point that I don't think there has been wrong doing, I asked what rule they had broken in response to F1s post about winning whilst not following the rules.

I just don't think that cheating in sport is worth getting too upset about.

Apex clipper · Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:17 pm Post subject:

DaveGibson · Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject:

The rule broken which seems most obvious would be "Causing an unnecessary accident" but that is usually invoked against drivers. Whether it can be applied to other personnel is open to debate. As to the danger of the 'accident', it looks to me like the place chosen was extremely unlikely to affect to result in any debris reaching the spectators (if there actually were any in the vicinity).

PhilD · Running In Joined: 10 Jan 2007 Posts: 406

Ok, this is getting slightly out of hand! F1, indeed all motorsport is dangerous (though I have said previously that's it's probably safer than driving on the road!).

So having accepted it is dangerous then all actions by participants could be seen as dangerous or in some cases those actions might increase the danger.

This incident was certainly the latter and even though the accident was perhaps bigger than expected (the radio transcrpit certainly suggests so) no one was actually killed or indeed injured. Also, as DaveG says the spot chosen was also unlikely to put spectators at risk.

Which brings us back to the wider question, the only one I have actually commented on, which is whether "cheating" is acceptable in sport. The problem is the line as to what is considered 'acceptable' gamesmanship, is constantly shifting so it's difficult to say. In F1 team orders seem to be a henious crime one minute and fine the next (particulary if those team orders will benefit a Brit, come on Rubens do the decent thing!). This incident is team orders taken to the extreme, and yes I think it is step to far and all involved should punished but I'm just saying a little perspective in required.

TimR · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject:

Surely the fundamental rule broken is a 'no cheating' one.

I presume such a basic rule actually exists?

DaveGibson · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject:

I doubt that there is an explicit 'no cheating' rule. The necessary rules are defined and anything deliberately not in compliance with those rules will be cheating.

Eff One · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject:

Two year suspended ban for Renault, five year ban for Symonds, lifetime ban from FIA-sanctioned motorsport for Briatore.

Ouch.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8266090.stm
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"Racing is life. Everything before and after is just waiting." Steve McQueen

woof woof · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject:

This does stink to me. McLaren get a massive fine for allegedly spying, hardly life threatening, and yet deliberately crashing only gets a suspended?

I suppose there's previous for this sort of decision...one of the reasons I stopped watching F1 was that Schumacher didn't get banned for deliberately crashing. Crashing isn't that big a deal then?

As a sport I think it lacks all credibility.
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woof woof's defence lawyer claimed that "Booze played no part in his typo's."

Confucius says "all reckless speeding is caused by accidents."

Scouse · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:19 pm Post subject:

So do Kovaleinen. Alonso & Webber each now have to sack Briatore as their manager then?
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Scouse

ds240 · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject:

I think everyone has got off quite lightly, especially renault.

There is bound to be more goings on behind the scenes with regards to the punishments.

No fine is strange, and not even excluding them from the points this year, meaning loss of money revneue.

Alonso escpaes because he is due to go to Ferrari, Renault largely escape because they don't want to lose a manufacture from the sport, piquet escapes because ... well no one cares about him.

Briatore and symonds punishments are about right for what happened.

I would have expected a bigger punishment over mclarens spying incident. Fixing the race as much as possible is not good for the sport.

oh well thats the latest F1 shit storm to blow over.............. until next week!!
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Clunes · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject:

Alan,

I agree to a point but there are some key differences between then (Mclaren) and now (Renault) - the main one being that the FIA are desperate not to loose any more manufacturers from the championship right now.

If Renault had been kicked out or given a huge fine right now then they would have been shooting themselves in the foot as it is likely they would have pulled out.

The other difference is, I suppose, that Renault pretty much admitted it and went some way to dealing with the issue in showing Flav and Pat the way out a.s.a.p. and not contesting the charge.

McLaren on the other hand pretty much denied any wrong-doing throughout.

Rightly or wrongly, a guilty plea often results in a lower sentence than someone pleading not-guilty who is subsequently proven to be so!

O.

Eff One · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject:

I think the fact that Renault admitted their guilt and took immediate steps against the individuals involved made all the difference. The FIA statement says as much.

And yes - all four drivers currently managed by Briatore (Webber, Alonso, Kovalainen and Grosjean) will have to sack him if they want to retain their superlicences.
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"Racing is life. Everything before and after is just waiting." Steve McQueen

Apex clipper · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:47 pm Post subject:

'Indefinitely' DOESN'T mean a life ban in my eyes!

What a load of bollocks!
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Mike Amos · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:26 pm Post subject:

They have gone a little further down the road to being pointless. How can you have such a breach, so repeatedly? Lets not forget that Renault were also found in possesion of other teams intelectual property, and on the car too. Briatore was also in charge when other little infringments occured and nothing worthwhile happened. Take a look into the past and the Toyota rally team bypassed breather restrictors. They got booted out and shortly after entered F1, how come Renault are so special. If there is anything suggested out of this it is that the FIA cannot be so certain of the new teams making entry stick. If they were, they would chuck renault and give the entry to the Sauber team. Giving Renault the big stick would have demonstrated resolve and demonstrated that rules and punishment MEAN something.

Right now I cannot see anything changing.
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woof woof · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject:

I see the arguments but this latest scandal involves race fixing and a potentially life threatening act. To have any credibility at all either should result in severe punishment, regardless of who's been sacked or what's been admitted or not in the meantime.

I wonder if it's possible that the bookies or individuals could take this further and sue the arses off someone? People have lost a lot of money over this, probably...

I find F1 boring as a viewer, doubly so when there's the suspicion of bias towards individuals or teams, the Schumacher incidents, later the Ferrari incidents (and Schumacher again...) trebly so when politics and double standards seem to be at work, different punishments for what look like similar acts...

Shame on them all. It's not a sport anymore, for me it's been perverted beyond tolerance.
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woof woof's defence lawyer claimed that "Booze played no part in his typo's."

Confucius says "all reckless speeding is caused by accidents."

"him" · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:52 pm Post subject:

woof woof · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject:

They should have just insisted that the guilty take their punishment like men. No whinging, just take it like a man.
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woof woof's defence lawyer claimed that "Booze played no part in his typo's."

Confucius says "all reckless speeding is caused by accidents."

Mike Amos · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject:

"just take it like a man."

Perhaps that is the problem, too many children who never had a slap for being arsey and/or breaking the rules. If folk get away with things, they just believe they have the right to continue doing so.

A good slap would set things straight and set F1 on the path to being a sport.
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Politicians. Would a career specialist by any other name carry such a putrid stench?

Big TC · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject:

I'm surprised at the leniency of Renault's 'punishment', tbh. However, this is real bad publicity for them and one wonders how long the board will keep them involved in F1 in the wake of this 'scandal'. I wouldn't be surprised to see them pull out of F1 at the end of next year, should results not improve.
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DaveGibson · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:04 pm Post subject:

I don't think anything much will stick to Renault. By heaping everything onto Briatore and Symonds Renault have also effectively been shown as victims of the two individuals.

BeN · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:34 am Post subject:

cbeaks1 · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:00 am Post subject:

Our bin men are on an indefinate strike. Its starting to smell like a lifetime.

Apex clipper · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:27 pm Post subject:

BeN · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject:

Even a definite 'lifetime' ban can be overturned, so I don't see what the difference is.

Basically I see it as he's out until otherwise stated.
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Gooner · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject:

This will also affect QPR. Briatore is joint owner but now the FiA have banned him, he no longer meets the FA regulations on who is suitable to own a football team.
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DaveGibson · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:57 pm Post subject:

Technically, Briatore has not been banned because the FIA has no power to do that. What they have done is banned any FIA-affiliated team or person from hiring him.

TimR · Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject:

Big TC · Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject:

Big Blue · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:21 pm Post subject:

Apparently Piquet junior is "waiting for the Singapore 2008 furore to die down" before returning to F1.

and I thought he was waiting to learn how to drive a racing car at the top level. The only reason this went undiscovered for so long was because Piquet was that shit that no one questioned how or why he crashed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/...o-end-before-making-comeback.html
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Call the fire brigade, call the firebrigade......

I said FireBRIGADE......