Which 911?

Bryan M · Which 911?

There are a lot of IF's here but I may be getting a role with a company car in the next couple of months (TT Tdi or Scirroco Tdi is the choice I think). If so the A3 is surplus and I'll be looking for a new toy to replace the BMW - criteria are as follows

- Convertible
- No wider than 1800 (garage doors are only 2081 and not much bigger inside)
- Illusion of 4 seats
- ability to reliably drive to South of France / Europe
- Roughly Audi+BMW budget (+/- Man Maths)
- Keep value or appreciate

Other contenders have included S4 Cab, Merc 500SL, don't think i could get a mondial Open to others

My main choice so far is Porsche 911 but which one 3.2 carrera or 993 or 996 (I don't like 964 90-93)

Thoughts

Nice Guy Eddie

The cheapest to run will be the 3.2 but there not for everybody. They do drive like a classic with a long throw gearbox and a rather sit up driving position. They are also rather low grip which can be fun on track. If you go for a 3.2 make sure it has the G50 gearbox as the old 915 type is a bit of a dog (1986 onwards).

I really want a 993 myself which seems to mix the classic lines with a more modern driving style (PAS and more practical box). I wouldn't go with the 996 as I'm not a fan of the shape but if you do make sure its a facelifted model form 02 onwards as they had many upgrades from the early models.

scamper

993's seem to be heavily priced compared to a 996?

I prefer the 993, but an early boggo 996 C2 with no bodykit or oversized alloys is not a bad thing.

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

I don't think the 911 works well as a cabrio: my inclination would be to say sod the illusion of four seats and get a Boxster S.

Mark

It would be a 993 for me - but prices/values are comical.

So, I would give myself a talking to, get real and buy a E46 BMW M3 Cab which will probably do the job a lot better anyway (also a true 4 seater).

TimR

If you want a mid-engined Ferrari with 4(ish) seats my only choice would be the 308GT4.
I know it's not a cabrio but I've always thought it looks a shitload better than the Mondial and I never understood why it's disliked so much, unless having the design of Pininfarina holds so much kudos?

911s really don't look good as cabrios IMO.

As Mark says the best choice would probably be the M3 cabrio and as an added bonus you could recover some of the cost by instantly becoming a drug dealer.

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Good point actually, E46 M3 Cabrio would do the job nicely, althuogh again I think it's a car that works far better as a coupé. You might even get one that still has the extended warranty.

"him"

Mark

Racing

I agree that the E46 M3 is a good call. A 330Ci is fairly lovely too.

And the Audi S4 makes a lovely noise but does suffer scuttle-shake (at least the A4 2.4 cabrio I drove did, so I assume the stiffer-sprung S4 would be at least as bad).

Otherwise, you'd be surprised how cheap last-generation CLK55 cabrios have become. The soundtrack alone is gorgeous, even if the interior quality is a bit shonky.

But......Jag XKRs offer the illusion of 4 seats too - a circa-2000 XKR is around £12k with 70k-ish on the clock. That's got to be appealing - all that supercharged oomph wrapped in lashings and lashings of Britishness.

As for the Porsche. Well. If you must I suppose. But convertible 911s have always struck me as as motoring heresy.

Bryan M

XKR is lovely but at 2015mm wide I am too portly to exit the motor once it is in the garage.

I am thinking older as well not just modern stuff 80's tastic!!!

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

You're 2015 mm wide?

Racing

XJS then - saw a lovely late 4.0 Celebration convertible the other day in metallic grey and it looked stunning. Very classy.

Or the R107 SL:

http://www.theslshop.com/details/vehicle159.asp

The 4-seat bit is the killer when it comes to convertibles. Not many of those around.

You could of course try the Maserati route but 3200-era Spiders start around £18k and the earlier Biturbo-based cars are a taste even I haven't acquired (it's the interiors that really put me off).

And then there is the closest thing in motoring terms to money in the bank which seems to be the W124 E320/300CE-24v convertible. Not a sportscar, although finding a Sportline model will help, but bankvault quality and timeless lines. Plus it's a full 4-seater. Avoid the E220 version - it's sloooooooowwwwww.

This E320 Sportline looks bloody lovely and it's an excellent price:

http://www.adgsevenoaks.co.uk/veh...RSpage=2&ID=911616&popup=

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Sorry, but lovely and XJS do not belong in the same sentence ...

Bryan M

Racing

Guitar Zero

Your including the mirrors in the width there Bryan - and probably forgetting about them on other cars

As a rule of thumb, most cars are 1800 mm wide excluding mirrors and around 2000 mm wide including mirrors.

IIRC, X100s are 1830 mm excluding mirrors.

BTW - buying rules for the X100 are simple :

1) Don't buy a convertible, they are crap

2) Don't buy the earlier 4.0 cars if you can help it - the six speed 4.2 litre cars are so much better and far more reliable.

3) 19 and 20 inch wheels look good - but they fuck the ride/handling/steering - they are for tarts only.

An 03 4.2 nat asp coupe on 18s with 50 k miles is circa £15k and lovely

XJS is also a good call. One of the last 4.0 manuals would be a giggle, or failing that the 6.0 V12 auto - engines and gearboxes are as tough as they come.

You should also look at these :

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1083325.htm

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Racing

Yes, but he said it had to be a convertible with 4-ish seats!!!

If we going on coupes, I'd have had plenty of other suggestions.

Bryan M

Both Mercs are nice and I do owe myself a V8 at some point in my life

Racing

The W124 convertible seems to be one of those cars that is appreciating in value. Ironside knocks decent E320 Sportlines out for nigh-on £20k!

They are not very sporty but have ample urge in E320 guise (think it's a straight-six engine) and steer better than you'd think on the Sportline suspension.

Guitar Zero

Convertibles are pish though.

If it categorically has to be a rag top then you only have one clear choice - a Merc SL, either the 80s one or the Diana/Kraft one (R129 ?)

Although a nice TVR Chimaera would kick big buckets of ass

But they both fail the 4 seat requirement.

Does a DB7 convertible seat 4 ?

Bryan M

I would have to be very special not to be a convertible. I like tarting on the Riviera in a rag top

Racing

Bryan M

Correct Racing - it is a toy for holiday and high day fun

Increasingly liking the W124

R129 and R107 both seat 4 (using the concept loosely, with limbs optional) as does an Aston DB7 - but I'm sure they are too pricey?

Racing

Yes, you won't find a decent DB7 rag-top much south of £25k.

I was assuming your budget was nearer £10-12k.

Nice Guy Eddie

Well if a 993 was on the original list then I would guess 20k is about right.

Racing

Yes, suppose so. I had just done A3 + E30 and had not supposed that the manmaffs bit added that much!

franki68

I didn't like the bog standard 996s,but have not driven a 993 .

Convertibles are generally shit though,but if you must have one ,forget the token seats and get a boxster.

Apart from that a bmw 3 series is the only one |I can think of .

Jasper

Let us not forget the underrated Volvo C70.

Racing

Oh yes let's.

And the Saab atrocity too.

Mark

Nice Guy Eddie

I couldn't have a C70, its a bit like going to McDonalds for a Salad.

Guitar Zero

So does the car have to actually seat 4 adults in the car, all at the same time for more than 30 seconds ?

If that's the case then it's probably W124 vert or nothing.

Jag did an earlier Targa version of the XJS ( XJ-SC I think), but these didn't have back seats and were only made from 86 - 88, so they are pre-facelift cars with the not especially good 3.6 litre AJ6 unit - although a fair few are five speed manuals.

The convertible XJS is very pretty, but if the XK8 is wobbly, then I bet they are too - however, whether they are better or worse than any other similar age rag top - I don't know. A pre-facelift 5.3 V12 on the lattice alloys is lovely, but the later facelifted models are better quality (look for the ones with airbags) and the last 3 years worth of production (93 to 96) are mega because they got the AJ16 4.0 and the 6.0 V12 (engines used in the X300 saloon).

I think the XJS convertibles have 4 seats - but whether a human being can use them, I doubt it.

scamper

Mark

Racing

SpecB

Parm

I'd also say that an E46 M3 Convertible ticks all the boxes.

Bryan M

GZ - four seats is only occasional ie taking mates down pub, friends with kids out etc which is what the motor will get used for mainly.

I repeat I don't care about their comfort - so child sized seats are fine!!!

Budget estimation is correct c £12-15k ideal - high teens possible with man maths. Idea is to have a place to put car fund if I move into a company car which isn't going to shed loads of value.

What about a 944 - are they still hairdresser or classic these days?

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...cture=1992&vehicleRegLetter=J

TimR

Bryan M

E46 is a bit modern for what I had in mind - I did see this though

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...cture=1992&vehicleRegLetter=J

Racing

I thought 944/968 cabrios are 2-seaters?

The 968 Clubsport coupe is a legend - definitely no hairdresser gags there. Though I'd probably go for the better-equipped 968 Sport.

Guitar Zero

Bryan M

Porsche 944/968 have 2 +2

I like the shape but I really want a 6 or 8 cyl engine in a toy this time - I keep buying 4cyl

Racing

It's excusable in the case of a 968. They are lovely.

Cheap as chips too:

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...cture=1994&vehicleRegLetter=L

Nice Guy Eddie

OK, this might not have been what you have in mind but it ticks the most boxes so far

a boulevard cruiser
can carry 4 blokes to the pub
the right number of cylinders
should be reliable
no idea how wide it is
will appreciate
just about in budget

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C111226/

or my fav, which ticks very few boxes

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...cture=1969&vehicleRegLetter=H

Bryan M

Ed - cracking choices - I was looking at the 356 earlier today - I think that qualifies as a token rear seat. I could see Kelly McGillis in the passenger seat as I roar through Casino square. Not sure about the 1000miles on the motorway to get there though

Mustang merits more investigation

Nice Guy Eddie

Bryan M

That 968 is lovely - not sure about blue leather though

Frank Bullitt

Guitar Zero

Isn't buying a sporty convertible the most pointless thing ever ?

If you want to enjoy the scenery/pose/feel the breeze in your hair, then what the bloody hell's the point of buying a stiffly suspended 4 pot thrash box ?.

Surely you want to oil down the road to the gentle and cultured woofle of something with lots and lots of cylinders ?

This is nice

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...ture=2003&vehicleRegLetter=03

This Aston is nice too

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...cture=1998&vehicleRegLetter=K

Bryan M

Ed - Generally takes 3 days each way - I'm not inclined to rush.

GZ - had always ruled out XK8 for two reasons, it is too wide (or maybe not!!) and I am at least 20yrs too young. but that does look very nice

That Aston has been written off and I worry that all at that price will have previous.

Mark

Guitar Zero

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...ture=2004&vehicleRegLetter=04

E63 convertible

Much better than some stinky old Porsche - much faster too.

Bryan M

GZ - I know I said I wanted character but not the sort which hit every branch on the way down

Racing

So.....

I still think Mercedes is a good way to go. Either that very lovely and rare W124 E320 Sportline I spotted....or spend more and go for summat like this 2005 CLK500:

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...ture=2005&vehicleRegLetter=05

There's always this model too - a car-savvy friend has one and swears by it (the later cars are apparently much better) although I've never much cared for the styling myself:

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...ture=2001&vehicleRegLetter=51

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Guitar Zero

A 968 would get utterly tooled off the line by a 645ci - 30 mph in 1.9 seconds and 60 in 5.4 - all you need to do is drop the hammer

As for a 964 C2 convertible - there is no way your going to get a manual one of those off the line quick enough to beat a 645ci - even with an Autocar Mag style " it's not mine, so fuck it if the gearbox explodes, let's just figure this bitch " launch - it's still slower to 60 than the Beemer.

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

I think Bryan has already eliminated the 964 as a choice, and a 6-Series wouldn't even see which way a 993 or 996 went.

Guitar Zero

996 - maybe, 993 would be a dead heat, unless your name is Walter Rohrl and he's using someone elses car.

Anyway - nice 993s or 996s aren't sub £20k.

Don't know what the beef with the 6 series is - they are lovely and conventionally pretty until you get round the back. Still, how many really tidy birds have chunky asses ? Loads but it wouldn't stop you banging the nubs off them would it ?

Bryan M

There seem to be loads of 996 and a few 993 below 20k - they can't all be crap

What is the issue with 911 cab's anyway

"him"

Nice Guy Eddie

Its the fact that the 911 is a proper sports car thats been developed over 30 years but herr doctors and chopping the roof off just throws all the science out the window. I would 100% prefer the coupe but wouldn't kick a cab out of bed. The real sacrilege comes when you bung a tiptronic box on.

Racing

woof woof

oh dear. Open cars seem to be taking a bashing.

I suppose it's just a matter of taste and priorities and whilst an open car might be heavier than a coupe it'll have other charms. As for looks, they're always subjective but if an open car is uglier than a cabrio version it'll probably be because it wasn't initially designed as an open car.

911's in general, although some love them they're not for me. Decades of stubbornness can't dispel the thought that it's a silly design and a mid engined design should be the car to go for and that the Boxster could blitz the 911 if Porsche would allow it to.

If ignoring badge snobbery issues and given the choice between a Boxster and a 911 of similar performance (I know it'll never be allowed to happen) I wonder which would be the most desirable car? Just don't expect a Boxster to be a fantastic drive, IMHO they aren't unless you're really really going.

Roadsterstu

franki68

Bryan M

Are Lexus SC430 bad?

Nice Guy Eddie

the other ct

Racing

Yes, shuddersomely (literally) awful cars. You would have to change your user name to "Barbie".

Bryan M

The dangers of too much wine and Autotrader I'm afraid - I have chastised myself thoroughly

boc70

This month's Mercedes Enthusiast magazine has features on the R107, R129 and W124 convertible as part of its 'Modern Classics' theme this issue.

Bryan M

Copy duly purchased - thanks for the tip.

Guitar Zero

I've just bought a copy too - pure filth for the classic Benz admirer.

Love that Beryl blue R129 - I can't believe the E class convertible is the more desirable and expensive car - all that just so you can carry a couple of kiddies to the shops.

Matt

gonnabuildabuggy

E30? Oh you've got one of those!

For me E46 M3 would be the way to go - with optional hard top.

How much are you asking for the E30?

Bryan M

Colin, Not put it on the market yet - this is all resting on if I am successful at a promotion in next few weeks and get a company car. This will free up the Audi for a better toy

It is for a top down wind in hair car not the ultimate driving machine so I don't want a coupe.

What do you recon the E30 is worth?

So in answer to the original post 3.2 Carrera, 993 or 996?

Bryan M

Oh and I don't really want to get rid of the E30 but If I sell the Audi I will just spend the cash on crap so may as well have a good toy, and I only have one garage!!

gonnabuildabuggy