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franki68

tesla p85

Not me unfortunately,I did not even know there was a tesla dealer in the northwest.

But anyway my uncle test drove one the other day,said it was the most extraordinary thing he had ever driven.Obviously the issue is charging stations,but the salesman told him in the US what they have now is you drive in to a station and dont recharge,they just swap the batteries for a fresh set,takes a few minutes.
Humphrey The Pug

A customer of one of my colleagues has one, according to the owner its a fantastic bit if kit.

I wasn't aware that there is a battery swap facility, I know there has been talk about it in general terms for all manufacturers but I didn't think there was anything in place yet; anywhere.
Chocy Rocky

He did hear that from the Salesman and you know what the are like!
BeN

Re: tesla p85

franki68 wrote:
Not me unfortunately,I did not even know there was a tesla dealer in the northwest.

But anyway my uncle test drove one the other day,said it was the most extraordinary thing he had ever driven.Obviously the issue is charging stations,but the salesman told him in the US what they have now is you drive in to a station and dont recharge,they just swap the batteries for a fresh set,takes a few minutes.


I think battery swapping would go a long way towards alleviating the biggest worries of electric motoring, which is range anxiety and the length of time to recharge. Have a battery swapping facility at every petrol station and the problem's solved.

When I drove the BMW i3 I spent nearly all my time worrying about finding the nearest public charger (of which there aren't many here in Singapore).
gooner

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
A customer of one of my colleagues has, according to the owner its a fantastic bit if kit.

I wasn't aware that there is a batter swap facility, I know there has been talk about it in general terms for all manufacturers but I didn't think there was anything in place yet; anywhere.


I still think that's the biggest stumbling block for EVs to be used for fleets. If someone invents the car equivalent of the AA battery that can be widely held by motorway service station with an easy system for swapping them over, they might become very rich.

Modern cars are all now very generic in mechanical design with most having a pretty universal design of 4cyl petrol/diesel engine so I can't see why there is no scope for universally shaped battery packs. Part of me thinks that the biggest problem is that buyers probably can't get around the idea of such a large part of the car not being a permanent fixture of it.
JohnC

Exactly what are the facilities you require to change batteries: a fork lift?

I wouldn't be too keen on letting "wee Jimmy" whirl his forklift around at high speed, pulling body panels off to get access. After a dozen or so battery swaps I think you would have a very 2nd hand car. I had to carry the new UPS (Un-interrupted Power Supply) up the stairs to the computer room and even though it is only the size of 2 shoe boxes, that was about as heavy as I would want to carry. The Tesla must carry nearly 1 ton in batteries so not exactly an easy 10 minute job and plenty of risk of damage.
BeN

JohnC wrote:
Exactly what are the facilities you require to change batteries: a fork lift?

I wouldn't be too keen on letting "wee Jimmy" whirl his forklift around at high speed, pulling body panels off to get access. After a dozen or so battery swaps I think you would have a very 2nd hand car. I had to carry the new UPS (Un-interrupted Power Supply) up the stairs to the computer room and even though it is only the size of 2 shoe boxes, that was about as heavy as I would want to carry. The Tesla must carry nearly 1 ton in batteries so not exactly an easy 10 minute job and plenty of risk of damage.


I think it's probably more like a hole in the floor (think garage) in which you drive over and position the car over it. A battery redesign is of course needed but I don't think that's hard to do.
gooner

JohnC wrote:
Exactly what are the facilities you require to change batteries: a fork lift?

I wouldn't be too keen on letting "wee Jimmy" whirl his forklift around at high speed, pulling body panels off to get access. After a dozen or so battery swaps I think you would have a very 2nd hand car. I had to carry the new UPS (Un-interrupted Power Supply) up the stairs to the computer room and even though it is only the size of 2 shoe boxes, that was about as heavy as I would want to carry. The Tesla must carry nearly 1 ton in batteries so not exactly an easy 10 minute job and plenty of risk of damage.


You're basing your thoughts on current car design and of course the idea of having to remove body panels from today's car on a regular basis is utterly barmy. But why not have a battery pack that can drop down from beneath the car with a freshly charged one slotted in its place? I can't see that being beyond the realms of possibility.
Martin

We have a fancy double deck automated battery changing/charging station in one of our depots, so it's something's that's been around for years.  I wouldn't be keen on having the battery on my shiny new car changed though!

The supercharger stations are a better answer imo
gooner

It depends how quick they can provide a decent charge. Currently you can put petrol in a car in around 10 minutes so waiting even half an hour would be a hassle for a lot of drivers. For electric vehicles to really take over we either need really fast charging (15mins Max) or to view the battery pack as less part of the car and more a consumable.
PhilD

gooner wrote:
Part of me thinks that the biggest problem is that buyers probably can't get around the idea of such a large part of the car not being a permanent fixture of it.


Like the 60kg of fuel that regularly goes in and out?  
Martin

gooner wrote:
It depends how quick they can provide a decent charge. Currently you can put petrol in a car in around 10 minutes so waiting even half an hour would be a hassle for a lot of drivers. For electric vehicles to really take over we either need really fast charging (15mins Max) or to view the battery pack as less part of the car and more a consumable.


Maybe, but stopping for 45-50 mins after driving for 250 miles isn't too much of a hardship and is probably the sensible thing to do anyway.
Chris M Wanted a V-10

Martin wrote:
We have a fancy double deck automated battery changing/charging station in one of our depots, so it's something's that's been around for years.

For what, though? Fork lifts, or salesmen in Renault Zoes/Nissan Leafs?
Martin

Reach trucks (fork lifts that go up to about 13m) and LLOPs (low level order pickers)
Giant

Standardising batteries and the quick changing of is surely an essential development of EVs.
Michael

Tesla Supercharger stations are free to use for life if you buy one of the higher grade cars or pay for a package but the battery swap, which isn't yet live, would cost similar to a tank of fuel. There is a video of it on the Tesla website which compares brimming an Audi A8 and in the same time you can swap your battery pack twice. Impressive but i think only one store has gone live in the US which does it and I can't see it happening here anytime soon.
Chip Butty

The range on the higher output Teslas (the P85D and the P85DS ?) is good enough to be useable every day for most people - assuming you can plug it in over night.

I do a reasonably high mileage, but I've only done one journey in the last 9 months that may have required a top up en route.

Obviously - a euro road trip is out of the question (unless you want to spend hours hanging out at supercharger stations) - but the Tesla is the first of it's type that you could do high annual mileages in with little fuss.

The performance is another big plus point too - the numbers these things can spit out are insane - especially the dual motor S with 695 bhp and 4 wheel drive...watch this video

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars...a-model-s-p85d-insane-mode-video/

What I don't like about the Tesla is the looks - it's probably the only car I know off that looks worse in the metal than it does in print. There is one I see most days on the M40 and it's a disappointing thing to look at.
Chris M Wanted a V-10

Chip Butty wrote:

What I don't like about the Tesla is the looks - it's probably the only car I know off that looks worse in the metal than it does in print.

Which just goes to show that beauty is in the eye of the beholder as I recon the Tesla is maybe the best styled large saloon on our roads, possibly even better than the Jag XJ, and nobody does style better than Jaguar (IMHO)
Humphrey The Pug

Chris M Wanted a V-10 wrote:
Chip Butty wrote:

What I don't like about the Tesla is the looks - it's probably the only car I know off that looks worse in the metal than it does in print.

Which just goes to show that beauty is in the eye of the beholder as I recon the Tesla is maybe the best styled large saloon on our roads, possibly even better than the Jag XJ, and nobody does style better than Jaguar (IMHO)


Have to agree with you Chris, I see a fair few about and always admire the way they look; to me they have a hint of Aston Rapide about them.
DetmoldDick

Chris M Wanted a V-10 wrote:
Chip Butty wrote:

What I don't like about the Tesla is the looks - it's probably the only car I know off that looks worse in the metal than it does in print.

Which just goes to show that beauty is in the eye of the beholder as I recon the Tesla is maybe the best styled large saloon on our roads, possibly even better than the Jag XJ, and nobody does style better than Jaguar (IMHO)


Except Tesla, obviously.
PhilD

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
Chris M Wanted a V-10 wrote:
Chip Butty wrote:

What I don't like about the Tesla is the looks - it's probably the only car I know off that looks worse in the metal than it does in print.

Which just goes to show that beauty is in the eye of the beholder as I recon the Tesla is maybe the best styled large saloon on our roads, possibly even better than the Jag XJ, and nobody does style better than Jaguar (IMHO)


Have to agree with you Chris, I see a fair few about and always admire the way they look; to me they have a hint of Aston Rapide about them.


Which means they have more than a hint of Jaguar and I wonder if you asked a bunch of people in the street what it was how many would say Jag. Personally I like them but they are a bit sexy saloon by numbers.
PG

A friend of mine test drove a Tesla last year and was blown away by it. The instant performance was incredible. The huge interior screen and plastics less impressive.

And at that time the low BIK % meant that as a company car they made huge sense. But all this is going to change, so they are going to have to stand on their own merits more in the future.

CB is right that the range is such that most people could use one every day with no issue. But when you do need to go longer / farther, I still think the charging will be an issue, or a battery swap more so.

The free / turbo charging and even a swap out work so long as the cars are rare. But once they are more common how could it ever work? If you count how many cars pass through a motorway service station in the 30 minutes it would take to charge, the numbers just could not work. And if it was a swap, one techy plus kit and infrastructure for every petrol pump now - how much would that all cost? Or you arrive at Tesco's (well Waitrose more likely) to find that all the chargers are full? What then?

The costs of rolling out a universal charging infrastruture and the changes that would require in both electricity generation and usage are utterly beyond the comprehension of the politicos who trumpet pure-electric cars.

I still think plug-in hybrids like the BMW i family are the only practical way forward.
Chip Butty

In pictures - I can see shades of XF.

In the metal - they look naff all like Jags, especially if you are overtaking one as the back end is the least successful element of the design.

PhilD

I see you have Moon glasses to go with your boots Mr Butty  
JohnC

PG wrote:
I still think plug-in hybrids like the BMW i family are the only practical way forward.


I agree that the practicalities of charging cars make this the only workable option for a long time to come and perhaps forever. House owners may be able to charge up overnight but those who live in flats and park in a car park or the street have no chance of a regular evening top up.

Perhaps people will look back at us enviously for the freedom of movement and choices we have!
PG

JohnC wrote:
Perhaps people will look back at us enviously for the freedom of movement and choices we have!


The sociological (never mind economic) impact of the car is something that politicians and others hate to have to acknowledge. Especially in this "anti-car" period we seem to be living through.  

The rise in mobility and independence that the car brought to society were a key driver in the rise of the middle classes, professional classes and a skilled working class who had aspirations to be middle class.

The left hate affordable cars as they allow people to be independent. The rich hate affordable cars as they allow the masses to go elsewhere if they don't like working for you. Cars did for 1950-70's people what the printing press did earlier and the internet is doing now.
Alf McQueef

I like Teslas and would not hold the method of propulsion against them since they drive well and are fast. Charging is the issue. I saw just the other day my local Sainsburys has a Tesla fast charge bay - 2 indeed! I bet they stay empty. Or have old-shape black X5's parked in them non-stop, with slavering chav-dogs inside (human and canine).

There is a front page Telegraph article today saying Stafford university have designed a new battery which is stable, has 6-7 times the charge of a LiION, and in mobile phone size could be charged in a minute. I'm sure it's early research only, and if/when productised we'll probably cock it up and Mercans and Chinese will take all the profit, but when batteries get anything like that good, the whole thing has legs.
Chip Butty

I find the technology and it's possibilities fascinating - what Tesla have achieved is incredible.

However - what I cannot get my head round is how and why this car (and cars of it's type) is lauded as an environmental saviour. All it does is shift the carbon load from under the bonnet and onto the power station (nuclear power notwithstanding) - and if you add in the carbon outputs from the battery production process, it's no better than a new RRS SVR in terms of lifecycle emissions.

So - why all the government grants and favourable taxation then ? - until you can find a way to produce vast amounts of electricity for negligible environment burden, then an electric car is as much use as tits on a teapot.
Big Blue

PG wrote:


The left hate affordable cars as they allow people to be independent. The rich hate affordable cars as they allow the masses to go elsewhere if they don't like working for you. Cars did for 1950-70's people what the printing press did earlier and the internet is doing now.


+1
Bob Sacamano

Chip Butty wrote:
I find the technology and it's possibilities fascinating - what Tesla have achieved is incredible.

However - what I cannot get my head round is how and why this car (and cars of it's type) is lauded as an environmental saviour. All it does is shift the carbon load from under the bonnet and onto the power station (nuclear power notwithstanding) - and if you add in the carbon outputs from the battery production process, it's no better than a new RRS SVR in terms of lifecycle emissions.

So - why all the government grants and favourable taxation then ? - until you can find a way to produce vast amounts of electricity for negligible environment burden, then an electric car is as much use as tits on a teapot.


I think you've answered your own question - nuclear, renewables and even gas are all low carbon compared to petrol and diesel burning, so a shift towards vehicles powered by electricity from these sources is favourable (if you believe in man-made climate change that is - it's just a theory).

The battery manufacture is an issue but lead acid batteries are endlessly recyclable and I would expect lithium ones to be the same.
Chip Butty

Nuclear aside - renewables are highly unlikely meet global energy needs...

So unless we go nuclear    very quickly - we won't get any global improvement. The UK's electricity infrastructure couldn't cope with a wholesale shift to electric cars, how many other countries are like this ?.

Suppose it is a chicken and egg shaped conundrum - what comes first ?, the power train or the refuelling infrastructure ?
PG

Chip Butty wrote:
So - why all the government grants and favourable taxation then ? - until you can find a way to produce vast amounts of electricity for negligible environment burden, then an electric car is as much use as tits on a teapot.


The cynic in me would say - once all cars are electric, you can't tax electricity differently based on its use. So, road tax will be based on electrical engine power (so forcing us into tiny electro shyte boxes) and fuel tax will be moved to road pricing (so forcing us not to travel as much as we can now). Equals control. The thing that all in power want and we fight not to give them.
Bob Sacamano

Chip Butty wrote:
Nuclear aside - renewables are highly unlikely meet global energy needs...

So unless we go nuclear very quickly - we won't get any global improvement. The UK's electricity infrastructure couldn't cope with a wholesale shift to electric cars, how many other countries are like this ?.

Suppose it is a chicken and egg shaped conundrum - what comes first ?, the power train or the refuelling infrastructure ?


It's not that renewables can't meet global energy needs - it's more that at the moment we don't want to pay what it would cost per unit of electricity. That will change - we're already seeing the cost of generation for wind power fall rapidly as installations get bigger and the manufacturing process is industrialised.
Alf McQueef

Tidal and nuclear are the only ways I can see of generating sufficient power "cleanly". I have reservations about nuclear as human nature and natural disasters dictate accidents will happen. Tidal is the one...
Clunes

Alf McQueef wrote:
I like Teslas and would not hold the method of propulsion against them since they drive well and are fast. Charging is the issue. I saw just the other day my local Sainsburys has a Tesla fast charge bay - 2 indeed! I bet they stay empty. Or have old-shape black X5's parked in them non-stop, with slavering chav-dogs inside (human and canine).

There is a front page Telegraph article today saying Stafford university have designed a new battery which is stable, has 6-7 times the charge of a LiION, and in mobile phone size could be charged in a minute. I'm sure it's early research only, and if/when productised we'll probably cock it up and Mercans and Chinese will take all the profit, but when batteries get anything like that good, the whole thing has legs.


It's Stanford not Stafford Uni so the Mercans already have the technology (though this Chinese will no doubt almost magically 'develop' the same thing soon enough)
Alf McQueef

That makes more sense! It seemed unlikely, though we are better at inventing stuff than people think.

When this kind of thing comes along, you can see why so many countries like China and Russia use their national secret services to spy on business. This kind of disruptive technology breakthrough could cost existing Chinese business a fortune, and make the new company billions.
Clunes

I see they have a new entry level model in the P70D

At 55k it seems competitively priced against similar performing exec saloons

A colleague of mine in the US had a P85 and loves it and every time I go out to San Jose they are all over the place.

Contrary to Mr Butty I think the rear & rear 3/4 is the best aspect of the design and the front end/mouth is the area of design I struggle with most

O
Bob Sacamano

Clunes wrote:


There is a front page Telegraph article today saying Stafford university have designed a new battery which is stable, has 6-7 times the charge of a LiION, and in mobile phone size could be charged in a minute. I'm sure it's early research only, and if/when productised we'll probably cock it up and Mercans and Chinese will take all the profit, but when batteries get anything like that good, the whole thing has legs.


[/quote]

It's quite promising but at the moment it can only produce 2V and 40W. That said it can be recharged 7500 times, compared to a lithium equivalent of 1000 times. Early days but could be a gamechanger.
PhilD

Alf McQueef wrote:
That makes more sense! It seemed unlikely, though we are better at inventing stuff than people think.



Which people? Thought it was pretty well known that we are an inventive bunch, just not that great at making money from them! (Berners-Lee, I'm looking at you and your altruistic endeavours...)
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

I love the way it looks apart from that stupid plastic panel supposed to look like a grille, and the ugly "T" logo on it, that looks like something Masnory or Khan would produce.
Giant

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
I love the way it looks apart from that stupid plastic panel supposed to look like a grille, and the ugly "T" logo on it, that looks like something Masnory or Khan would produce.


+1 to all this.

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