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PG

Tesla 3

This may well be the game changer? Soon to be passing us on the M6 maybe?

I like the simple exterior styling. But I'm not sure about the 26 inch television bolted to the dash and it appears that there are no instruments directly in front of the driver. Perhaps it is all heads up displays? Or maybe just a styling risk?

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news...tesla-model-3-revealed-california





gonnabuildabuggy

Not sure but I think my Dad and brother have both put down deposits.
Bob Sacamano

Road pricing by the mile moves ever closer.
Chip Butty

An unbelievable 115,000 people have put down deposits in 24 hrs (apparently).

Watching Tesla progress will be fascinating as there are some quite sizeable questions around their long term viability - much of which you can read from various published commentators.

Specifically though, the one thing that makes Tesla unique is the one thing that could sink the company - it's Supercharger network and their decision to use unique recharging connections.

Supercharger stations are unbelievably expensive to invest in and maintain, but in the US, based on model S sales alone, the Supercharger stations cannot handle the volume of cars. So Tesla have to build more and more, requiring vast capital sums to do so. Sums which they may not have and sums which may not be enough to satisfy demand. Having to wait an hour to then have to plug your car in for an hour is not good.

All of the other OEMs are planning to use existing connectors which allows their customers to use any number of the independent charging facilities that will be popping up in due course. They don't have to make any investment in these facilities and customers won't have to find a marque specific charging centre.

That's Tesla's secondary issue, in the next few years, all of the premium brands (including JLR) will have competitor offerings launched and product cycles are filling up with all kinds of interesting EV options. They also have the advantage of seeing where battery technology is headed before selecting favoured cell technology and setting up module and pack manufacturing sites themselves.
PG

Chip Butty wrote:
An unbelievable 115,000 people have put down deposits in 24 hrs (apparently).

Watching Tesla progress will be fascinating as there are some quite sizeable questions around their long term viability - much of which you can read from various published commentators....


Very interesting points. It is very rare for the first to market to be the one that survives and succeeds - in any industry. The first in just opens the market for the followers. But you've got to admire Musk for doing it and losing, reputedly, up to $1Bn a year at the moment.

Depending on how you view Musk's long term game plan, one outcome I've seen discussed is that at some point he will attempt to licence the use of the supercharger network  to other manufacturers (as that would gvie them a huge leg up) and then to their customers for an annual and each time use fee. Thereby replicating the $billions per month of income that Paypal achieved.

And the other point is that charging an EV still seems to be in the Betamax v VHS stage of life. So many connectors, so many charge rates - just turning up and plugging in is a long way off. Although perversely now may be the best time to own an EV. Before you have to queue to use a charger and users have to pay the real costs of the charger network and before road pricing makes the savings worthless.  

Read this article on charging and your head starts to hurt -

https://www.zap-map.com/charge-points/basics/
Twelfth Monkey

Slightly odd-looking thing.

Whilst the potential problems with the business model seem true, I doubt Musk hasn't foreseen and planned around it all.  Good luck to them, I say.
Chip Butty

I suspect there is lots of smoke and bull shit to counter some of the more political aspects (like - are his other businesses funding Tesla, therefore is it sustainable and profitable in it's own right)
Alf McQueef

I was excited by the prospect of a cheaper Tesla (I really like the model S) but the looks of that, inside and out, are not great. The dashless interior is especially nasty.

I had not realised they had their own charger system - you would think, with availability of chargers being such an issue, all EV's would share, wouldn't you?
Twelfth Monkey

I wouldn't doubt for a second that his other businesses are funding this to a significant degree.
gonnabuildabuggy

Surely his investors are funding this in the hope of profit down the line, just as Amazon's are?

One rule to get rich (which I've not worked out how to utilise so far), is always use other people's money.

I'm sure Elon is taking a fair whack of salary out, whilst others are funding his business.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

I like that, especially that it doesn't have the silly fake "grille" of the other models.
Blarno

That screen on the dash is horrible and looks like an afterthough, or, worse still, an aftermarket tuning shop job.
PhilD

Blarno wrote:
That screen on the dash is horrible and looks like an afterthough, or, worse still, an aftermarket tuning shop job.


You might as well moan that the smart phone in your hand or your TV screen on top on the sideboard at home looks like an afterthought.

As we have less and less mechanical connections to the driver then the need for a complicated dash goes away. Old skool manufactures spend years designing fancy dash architecture with built in screens for stereo, nav (and now dials) only for it all to be out of date before its even hit the market.

Steering wheel, screen and some air vents is all you need!
Bob Sacamano

I don't have a problem with the large touchscreen  - the larger the better with these things and it's just the jarring unfamiliarity that jumps out at you - we'll get used to it. I would still like some sort of speed display in front of me through the steering wheel although I accept as we move towards self driving, speed controlled cars it will become an anachronism.
Blarno

PhilD wrote:
Blarno wrote:
That screen on the dash is horrible and looks like an afterthough, or, worse still, an aftermarket tuning shop job.


You might as well moan that the smart phone in your hand or your TV screen on top on the sideboard at home looks like an afterthought.

As we have less and less mechanical connections to the driver then the need for a complicated dash goes away. Old skool manufactures spend years designing fancy dash architecture with built in screens for stereo, nav (and now dials) only for it all to be out of date before its even hit the market.

Steering wheel, screen and some air vents is all you need!


If it was at least built-in in some way, then I may agree, but it looks like it was just plonked there on an arm.
PhilD

Blarno wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Blarno wrote:
That screen on the dash is horrible and looks like an afterthough, or, worse still, an aftermarket tuning shop job.


You might as well moan that the smart phone in your hand or your TV screen on top on the sideboard at home looks like an afterthought.

As we have less and less mechanical connections to the driver then the need for a complicated dash goes away. Old skool manufactures spend years designing fancy dash architecture with built in screens for stereo, nav (and now dials) only for it all to be out of date before its even hit the market.

Steering wheel, screen and some air vents is all you need!


If it was at least built-in in some way, then I may agree, but it looks like it was just plonked there on an arm.


So when it needs changing you just unplonk it! I do get where you are coming from but feel the attempt in the S to integrate looks worse.
Michael

I like the front but the back end looks a bit odd. My problem with these is that they could be so revolutionary in design but they're still hanging on to the internal combustion three-box type arrangement.

As also mentioned the business doesn't seem to stack up but who knows what they actually have planned. The waiting for charging issues that seem to be annoying many owners in the US seems to be the opposite of modern on demand life and a step that needs fixing.
Scouse

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
I like that, especially that it doesn't have the silly fake "grille" of the other models.


Instead it looks as if it hasn't been cut out of the mould properly.
simonp

I assume Musk is hoping to supply other manufacturers with batteries for their forthcoming EVs and that that side of Tesla's business will turn a tidy profit?
Chris M Wanted a V-10

simonp wrote:
I assume Musk is hoping to supply other manufacturers with batteries for their forthcoming EVs and that that side of Tesla's business will turn a tidy profit?

Musk and Panasonic are building a new battery manufacturing plant in the USA; Musk is also developing a battery pack to store electricity for use in domestic homes; store up the energy from solar cells from daytime to use at night etc etc, with the intention that you won't need mains electricity
PhilD

250 mile range is still rubbish. Really want an ev for the city but as I also only want one vehicle I need a 1000 mile range (or 5 minute charges).
simonp

Surely if Tesla sell lots of this model owners will be forced to queue at the free charging points. I can see owners of the posher models being right pissed off if that happens.
PhilD

simonp wrote:
Surely if Tesla sell lots of this model owners will be forced to queue at the free charging points. I can see owners of the posher models being right pissed off if that happens.


Won't they get there first as their car will be faster?
Frank Bullitt

Michael wrote:
I like the front but the back end looks a bit odd. My problem with these is that they could be so revolutionary in design but they're still hanging on to the internal combustion three-box type arrangement.


Agreed, EV offers a radical solution to packaging and Tesla don't seem to be that radical in this respect.
cbeaks1

198000 orders now.
cbeaks1

Double post.

$7.5 billion or thereabouts.
Giant

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Michael wrote:
I like the front but the back end looks a bit odd. My problem with these is that they could be so revolutionary in design but they're still hanging on to the internal combustion three-box type arrangement.


Agreed, EV offers a radical solution to packaging and Tesla don't seem to be that radical in this respect.


The first cars looked like horse drawn carriages. I would imagine Tesla have decided to play safe with the design while the general public get used to the concept of electric cars. It's probably the less risky option over going wild with the design as well as the technology.
PhilD

Giant wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:
Michael wrote:
I like the front but the back end looks a bit odd. My problem with these is that they could be so revolutionary in design but they're still hanging on to the internal combustion three-box type arrangement.


Agreed, EV offers a radical solution to packaging and Tesla don't seem to be that radical in this respect.


The first cars looked like horse drawn carriages. I would imagine Tesla have decided to play safe with the design while the general public get used to the concept of electric cars. It's probably the less risky option over going wild with the design as well as the technology.


but they have got rid of the dashboard! From Wiki "Originally, the word 'dashboard' applied to a barrier of wood or leather fixed at the front of a horse-drawn carriage or sleigh to protect the driver from mud or other debris "dashed up" (thrown up) by the horses' hooves"
BeN

My thinking is that such EVs will only really take off once they solve the charging issue, and quick-charging technology becomes available. Also they need to think about how to cater to city dwellers, where parking spaces are limited and you can't always charge while parked.
PhilD

BeN wrote:
My thinking is that such EVs will only really take off once they solve the charging issue, and quick-charging technology becomes available. Also they need to think about how to cater to city dwellers, where parking spaces are limited and you can't always charge while parked.


As the battery is akin to petrol/diesel (kind of, you could argue it's fuel plus tank but for my point I'll ignore that   ) then swapping one's battery could be a lot quicker. Not an original idea of course and no doubt easier said then done.
Michael

I don't agree that Tesla need to be conservative. They have such a strong following that they could be a little more adventurous, it's worked for BMW with the i8.
I can see why they might not want to go too far out but the Model S was conservative in the extreme even down to completely unnecessary pretend grill.
PhilD

Michael wrote:

I can see why they might not want to go too far out but the Model S was conservative in the extreme even down to completely unnecessary pretend grill.


The more I look at this 3 the more it looks like the grill has been rubbed out. Reminds me of this sort of thing:



I prefer this render...

http://europe.newsweek.com/tesla-...-market-electric-car-425413?rm=eu
BeN

PhilD wrote:
BeN wrote:
My thinking is that such EVs will only really take off once they solve the charging issue, and quick-charging technology becomes available. Also they need to think about how to cater to city dwellers, where parking spaces are limited and you can't always charge while parked.


As the battery is akin to petrol/diesel (kind of, you could argue it's fuel plus tank but for my point I'll ignore that   ) then swapping one's battery could be a lot quicker. Not an original idea of course and no doubt easier said then done.


I agree. I wonder why that hasn't been more widely adopted.
PhilD

BeN wrote:
PhilD wrote:
BeN wrote:
My thinking is that such EVs will only really take off once they solve the charging issue, and quick-charging technology becomes available. Also they need to think about how to cater to city dwellers, where parking spaces are limited and you can't always charge while parked.


As the battery is akin to petrol/diesel (kind of, you could argue it's fuel plus tank but for my point I'll ignore that   ) then swapping one's battery could be a lot quicker. Not an original idea of course and no doubt easier said then done.


I agree. I wonder why that hasn't been more widely adopted.


Partly I guess because "one big battery" isn't the current preferred option rather many smaller batteries stuffed in where they will fit!
Chip Butty

Swapping batteries ? - I presume everyone knows how big and heavy the battery packs for a full EV are ?.

Think sprung king size matress in terms of physical size and you've got an idea of what your dealing with, but upwards of 400 kilos in weight. Aside from the equipment required to safely take a pack out of car and aside from the space you would need to have 20 or 30 packs ready to go, I think we need serious advances in battery tech and a cross OEM agreement to use the same type of packs that connect in the same way before this would even become a viable option.
PhilD

Yeah, but I don't always fill up my car, so can I buy a 100 mile battery instead please. Might get it down to the size of a child's mattress  
Michael

Tesla did try battery swap stations. They offered the service at a few of their stations but charged for it and I don't think it was successful. The idea was the car drove onto a platform and the process was automated removing and replacing the units from beneath the car. It's certainly an idea worth pursuing.
PG

BeN wrote:
Also they need to think about how to cater to city dwellers, where parking spaces are limited and you can't always charge while parked.


That's easy Ben. You won't be allowed to own a car unless you have a parking space. Like in Tokyo. When my sister lived there, a local official came out and measured the length of the parking space at their block and that was the size of car they could get a licence for.  

Or they could take the Bermudan model that I discovered n my trips there. You can register only one car to an address. That's it. So a house will have one car and as many scooters as needed.
Chris M Wanted a V-10

Just read that the first 3's aren't due to be delivered to customers until late 2017 !
Giant

Are Model Xs being delivered yet?
PhilD

Chris M Wanted a V-10 wrote:
Just read that the first 3's aren't due to be delivered to customers until late 2017 !


That's because they have only just started charging the batteries.
PhilD

and now the S has had its mouth taped up

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news...s-gets-facelift-and-new-tech-2016
BeN

PG wrote:
BeN wrote:
Also they need to think about how to cater to city dwellers, where parking spaces are limited and you can't always charge while parked.


That's easy Ben. You won't be allowed to own a car unless you have a parking space. Like in Tokyo. When my sister lived there, a local official came out and measured the length of the parking space at their block and that was the size of car they could get a licence for.  


That seems to be the model many cities have (Hong Kong as well I believe), but ironically not Singapore.

Over here it's pretty much free-for-all public parking. You pay to park, but not in a specific lot. Rather it's an entitlement to park anywhere within the designated area.

If the area is full, tough noogies, even though you may have already paid.
simonp

Turns out that when EM said the 3 would come with Supercharging as standard he meant the capability, not the access. If owners want access to the Supercharging stations they'll have to pay extra.
JohnC

simonp wrote:
Turns out that when EM said the 3 would come with Supercharging as standard he meant the capability, not the access. If owners want access to the Supercharging stations they'll have to pay extra.


The start of the slippery slope where electric ends up costing just the same as current fossil fuelled cars.

I am off to Dunoon today on some roads where I can fully utilise my carbons!
PG

simonp wrote:
Turns out that when EM said the 3 would come with Supercharging as standard he meant the capability, not the access. If owners want access to the Supercharging stations they'll have to pay extra.


I read that earlier in the week. I wonder if this will result in any cancelled orders?
PhilD

PG wrote:
simonp wrote:
Turns out that when EM said the 3 would come with Supercharging as standard he meant the capability, not the access. If owners want access to the Supercharging stations they'll have to pay extra.


I read that earlier in the week. I wonder if this will result in any cancelled orders?


about 399,999.

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