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Racing Teatray

Should anyone be interested...

The advert for the M135i is here:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classi...135i-high-spec-manual-5dr/6412835
Nice Guy Eddie

Good advert and the cars got all the right bits.

I did think, that looks a lot of money for a 4 year old car but comparing it too the other 135is on the market it looks about right. Overall cost of ownership over 4 years must be a bargain given it's lack of depreciation.

For comparison I bought a 3 year old 30k mile 130i for £12,500 back in 2010. Shows how cheap cars were back in the recession and what strong money anything interesting commands today
Racing Teatray

Well yes the price is certainly strong but let's see. You always have to build some room for negotiation...
gooner

It's strong but to be fair you put some very good options on it and if I were a potential buyer that spec would put it on the shortlist. The low mileage is also a good selling point. If someone starts haggling you can kindly ask them to find another one with that many extras.

I just can't believe BMW charged you extra for cruise control and parking sensors!
Big Blue

It's £500 more than a couple of equivalent ones on AT, one of which is one owner. I don't think it's over-rich but then I'm not the bloke in a hoody kicking the tyres.
Chris M Wanted a V-10

gooner wrote:
I just can't believe BMW charged you extra for cruise control and parking sensors!

They used to charge you extra for a radio !

I find some "options" baffling - even today on many Mercs, DAB is extra at a cost of several hundreds.... when you can buy a DAB radio for well under £50.  Even when looking to spec up a Yeti for my mum, DAB is an option at over £100 on most models
Racing Teatray

One of the attractions of the 440GC was that the standard spec is actually pretty generous. You get eg metallic paint, electric heated leather chairs and full-fat nav as standard for your £43k. Whereas despite a £45k price-tag, Merc doesn't supply you with a C43 with standard leather or COMAND, and certainly not metallic paint.

Porsche are the biggest jokers. A £40k boggo Cayman might as well be a Clubsport for all the standard equipment that doesn't grace it...
Martin

Price looks fair to me too, which means it's retained a very good percentage of the price you paid for it.

Didn't you remove all the badges? †If so, that means you put an M Badge on the back.....  

Were you trying for the 'M118d' look?  
Racing Teatray

I usually rebadge for sale, but could not be arsed this time beyond the "M"...

Yes, the retained value has been OK. Original list price was £36.5k, and I got a £3k discount.
Martin

Interestingly, a new 140i in your spec is £29.5k, thanks to an £8k discount.
gonnabuildabuggy

How does the depreciation per month compare to lease cost?
Racing Teatray

Martin wrote:
Interestingly, a new 140i in your spec is £29.5k, thanks to an £8k discount.


I suppose the difference is that when I ordered the M135i in July 2012, it hadn't even been launched in this country yet, and mine was one of the first when it arrived.

I've never been keen on leasing and it seems it would have cost rather more, not least because of the options. For example, Nationwide want £580/month for a 440i GC to my spec. That's nigh-on £200/month more than the PCP.

Even if the car were to depreciate so much that it is worth no more than the GFV of £17.5k after 4 years and 32k miles (a retained value of 37%), that would put the cost per mile at just over £500, which is still usefully cheaper than leasing.
Chris M Wanted a V-10

Racing Teatray wrote:
... that would put the cost per mile at just over £500, which is still usefully cheaper than leasing.

Shurely shome mishtake???
Martin

Yes, buying early in a model cycle is more costly, but sounds like you'll get some of that back when you sell it.

The 4GC has just been launched when I bought the 535d, so you could only get £3-4K discount and the interest rate was higher, which made a 435d more per month than a similarly specced 535d Touring.
Racing Teatray

Chris M Wanted a V-10 wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
... that would put the cost per mile at just over £500, which is still usefully cheaper than leasing.

Shurely shome mishtake???


Yeeeeesss. I meant cost per month...  
Racing Teatray

Martin wrote:
Yes, buying early in a model cycle is more costly, but sounds like you'll get some of that back when you sell it.

The 4GC has just been launched when I bought the 535d, so you could only get £3-4K discount and the interest rate was higher, which made a 435d more per month than a similarly specced 535d Touring.


Interest rate currently on any 4-series is 2.9%. I got 4.9% on the M135i back in 2012, which seemed reasonable at the time.
Martin

Both make a big difference. †I've just looked and a 440i GC with M Sport plus, full Merino, LEDs, comfort access etc etc, would be £60 a month less than I pay (same deposit / mileage).  That's despite the GFV being quite a bit lower.
Racing Teatray

I think BMW are relatively realistic with their GFVs and set them at a level where the customer is hopefully likely to have retained some equity in the vehicle.

Audi on the other hand....

To illustrate what I mean:

GFV set by Audi on a standard-spec S5 Sportback (£47,000) after 4yrs/40k miles - £23,139 (49%). FleetNews pegs it at £17,775 (38%).

GFV set by BMW on a standard-spec 440i Gran Coupe (£43,750) after 4yrs/40k miles - £15,497 (35%). FleetNews pegs it at £14,000 (32%).

GFV set by Jaguar on a standard-spec XE-S (£44,995) after 4yrs/40k miles - £15,376 (34%). FleetNews pegs it at £15,475 (34%).

GFV set by Mercedes on a standard-spec C43 Estate (£45,230) after 4yrs/40k miles - £22,450 (50%). FleetNews pegs it at £15,100 (33%).

The clear winner is Jaguar on this front Ė the difference is £99 (0%) in Jaguar's favour.

For the rest, BMW does next best with a negative difference of £1,497 (3%), then Audi on an eye-catching negative £5,364 (11%) and lastly Mercedes on negative £7,350 (17%).

While I suspect the FleetNews figures are deliberately pessimistic, I do rather think the Merc figure is unduly pessimistic on FleetNew's part.
JohnC

On the plus side for Mercedes and Audi though, the higher GFV surely reduces the monthly payments and you just hand it back at the end.
Nice Guy Eddie

Yep can't see the downside as long as you've put in minimal deposit and you're not looking to keep it beyond the primary period.
PG

JohnC wrote:
On the plus side for Mercedes and Audi though, the higher GFV surely reduces the monthly payments and you just hand it back at the end.


True, but it also depends on the discount on the way in. A big discount at the start and a low GFV will get the same result as smaller discount up front but an artificially high GFV.
Martin

Exactly, the deal is supported at one end or the other, then there's the interest rate to take into account. The only way to make a fair comparison is use the monthly payments. †Didn't the S5 come out more expensive than the 440i despite the higher GFV?
Racing Teatray

Yep, spec equalised to the spec I've chosen for the 440i GC, it reads:

440i GC:
- List with options: £48,345
- Discount: £9,227
- Discounted price: £39,128
- GFV: £17,448
- APR: 2.9%
- Monthly: £396
- Total paid if you buy the car at the end: £42,060

Audi S5 Sportback:
- List with options: £52,490
- Discount: £7,812
- Discounted price: £44,678
- GFV: estimate £25,000
- APR: 6.2%
- Monthly: estimate £452
- Total paid if you buy the car at the end: £52,224

Mercedes C43 AMG Estate:
- List with options: £51,495
- Discount: £4,340
- Discounted price: £47,208
- GFV: estimate £24,000
- APR: 5.5%
- Monthly: estimate £509
- Total paid if you buy the car at the end: £53,923

Jaguar XE-S:
- List with options: £50,500
- Discount: £6,219
- Discounted price: £44,281
- GFV: estimate £17,000
- APR: 4.9%
- Monthly: estimate £559
- Total paid if you buy the car at the end: £49,273

The total paid is relevant. You have to look at the overall cost because an artificially high GFV can simply munch your deposit whole, meaning you need to divide your deposit amount by the requisite number of months to get the true monthly cost. That's where I believe the case for the Audi starts to fall down. And that's before we've even considered the respective interest rates.

2.9% is ok. 6.2% in today's interest rate climate is outright robbery.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Interesting - the BMW looks like a downright bargain in that company
gonnabuildabuggy

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Interesting - the BMW looks like a downright bargain in that company


My thought too.

Low (realistic for todays times) interest rate and big discount seem the key factors.

EDIT - is that with the same (£6K?) deposit on all of them?
Twelfth Monkey

The interest rate is significantly lower.  The difference between under £400 and closer to £600 than £500 p.m. is massive, psychologically.

But it also looks as though if you just hand the car back, they all come out within 2-3k of one another, don't they?  I suspect that's what most people do, but may be wrong.
Frank Bullitt

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
The interest rate is significantly lower. †The difference between under £400 and closer to £600 than £500 p.m. is massive, psychologically.

But it also looks as though if you just hand the car back, they all come out within 2-3k of one another, don't they? †I suspect that's what most people do, but may be wrong.


Very few people hand them back and walk away. From what I understand most people use the equity as part of the next deposit (with the same manufacturer or another, if the GMFV is lower than the market value, Fiat will happily take that into the deal in your part-ex CitroŽn etc.), buy the car and sell it on the open market (a-la RT) or pay off the GMFV and keep it. In all of those scenarios the buyer gets the best opportunity for value - if you hand it back and don't get another the fine tooth comb comes out and here's a £600 bill for repairs to bring it up to a sellable condition.
Twelfth Monkey

OK.  So the flaw in my logic is that the car company might deem it worth more than the value stated at outset?
Racing Teatray

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Interesting - the BMW looks like a downright bargain in that company


My thought too.

Low (realistic for todays times) interest rate and big discount seem the key factors.

EDIT - is that with the same (£6K?) deposit on all of them?


Yes.
Racing Teatray

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
The interest rate is significantly lower. †The difference between under £400 and closer to £600 than £500 p.m. is massive, psychologically.

But it also looks as though if you just hand the car back, they all come out within 2-3k of one another, don't they? †I suspect that's what most people do, but may be wrong.


The difference between leasing and PCP is precisely that you don't "just hand it back", particularly if there is any value left in the car over and above the GFV.
cbeaks1

PCP hand backs have been very rare unless the negative equity is very high. In general most of these deals will be renewed well before the term is up. It may increase if new prices go up, marketing support comes down, and residuals slide.

A lot of manufacturers will have equity parity in the renewals systems to tell the dealer when the best time is to look to renew. Clearly you can also do this 'by hand' (cap v outstanding balance).
Martin

I think there is at least £6-7k equity in the Boxster and it's growing every month, which is presumably why Lindsay had the replacement call last week. †She asked them to contact her in January, which is interesting.....

If the Boxster was up for sale at a Porsche Dealer, I think it would be less than £5k cheaper than we paid for it nearly 3 years ago.

As I said, I can't see there being much in the 535d if I let it run to term, as the GFV is £15,500 at 4 years / 120,000 miles.
gonnabuildabuggy

Some excellent deals on the 535d at the moment from BMW, I wonder what the cost to change for you would be?
Racing Teatray

Bad idea to get a run-out model, residuals-wise.
Martin

There are some great deals.  I know someone who got 30% off an Individual spec one (Moonstone with Merino leather and more options than mine) along with a low interest rate, which resulted in it being a lower monthly cost than mine.  He swapped a current shape M3 for it, which he'd only had for a year and regretted trading in his M6 GC for.  

I wouldn't be interested in swapping mine for another one almost exactly the same, not even for a small saving, which it wouldn't end up being because I'd go for a higher spec.  I'll give it another year at least before I starting thinking seriously about changing it.
Frank Bullitt

Martin wrote:
As I said, I can't see there being much in the 535d if I let it run to term, as the GFV is £15,500 at 4 years / 120,000 miles.


I suspect you will get a call when it's at about 60-70k asking you to come in and see the Business Manager. The only person I know who spends real money on a PCP is Mrs FB's cousin, he changes his Audi every 9-18 months and invariably the old car is taken as his full deposit or a small contribution is required - most recently he chopped in an A4 TDI Black Edition that was 12 months old for an A6 2.0TDI Black Edition with some nice options - his PCP went up £23 per month and it needed a £1,500 contribution.

He does, however get good deals as he takes cars that are in stock that dealer wants to shift for the end of a quarter - the A6 was a stunning deal as the dealer admitted they were in for a bonus if they sold one more A6 before the end of the quarter; he picked it up 2 days after doing the deal having initially refused the £4,000 contribution they wanted.
Martin

That will be January then!  I had a call a month ago, as they were doing a 'cost + £100' deal on in stock and on order cars, but I reminded him of my thing for options and said unless he had a well equipped 740d I wasn't going to be interested.
PG

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Interesting - the BMW looks like a downright bargain in that company


Indeed. BMW probably make so much money shifting 320d's, that they can afford to support anything interesting. Either that or they're doing an Enron and hiding all these potential losses somewhere.....
Frank Bullitt

I think there is plenty of profit in a mass-produced 440 which probably costs little more than a 420d to produce at £42k, probably that others are taking the piss on comparable vehicles.

I drove by our BMW stealership yesterday and they had a 420d GT in what appeared to be M-Sport (sic) spec for £299 per month - no idea on the deposit etc but that seemed quite reasonable.
Martin

Yes, there must be more profit in the bigger engined versions.  Mine had a list price £12k higher than a 520d Auto and £4.5k more than a 530d, which is rather more than an extra turbo and bigger brakes cost.  The price gap between engines was bigger (nearly double) on the 5 than it was on the 3-4 Series as well. e.g £6k from 420d to 435d once you've equalised the spec.
Bob Sacamano

^ That and the profit on options, which is bordering on criminal.
PG

My comment was slightly tongue in cheek. There is clearly far more profit per unit in a 440i v a 320d, so the potential to discount is way higher. But in overall $$ terms based on the amount sold, 320d's must be right up there for generating positive cash flow.

Of course, any discount on a 440i they will get back in options, the prices of which, as bob say, are bordering on the criminal. When you look at racing's list above, the price of car + options - discount looks quite close to the original list price of the basic car. Clever marketing that.
Racing Teatray

You might ordinarily be right. However, on this occasion, the options are around £4.5k and the discount is £9.2k!

Don't forget that I went through this exact same process 12 months ago and decided none of the deals on the table were attractive enough. This year, I found one that was. Had I not, we would have kept the M135i. It was still quite a close decision this year but on balance I decided it was good enough.
PG

Racing Teatray wrote:
You might ordinarily be right. However, on this occasion, the options are around £4.5k and the discount is £9.2k!


I stand corrected, I thought a vanilla 440i was much nearer £40k. And you did well to mostly resist the options parrot on your shoulder going "ooo, you definitely need that...and that....and that....".  
Racing Teatray

Nope, list is £43,750! It is in fact a well-equipped car as it stands and you could order it and be happy with it. The fact that adding the entire options list would bulk up the purchase price to £60k is neither here nor there.

Frankly I could have just gone for the sunroof, BMW business speakers and wood trim and saved myself £3k. But for the sake of that amount, in the grand scheme of things it was better to have a car that had all the little niceties (19" alloys, HK stereo, big brakes, pimp glass, extended storage, reversing camera, adaptive suspension, adaptive lights and electric folding mirrors). Particularly since my M135i has eg adaptive suspension, adaptive lights and electric folding mirrors, so it would have felt like a downgrade to have gone without![/quote]
Big Blue

Ah. The "once you've had it it becomes a must-have" trap.

I'm fucked: whatever the next iteration of the B5 is I'll need to either bankrupt myself buying and speccing a new one or hunt all of Europe for the right options.
Racing Teatray

Well there are limits. The 500E had an electric rear sunblind that had distinct novelty value but I'd never actually spec one.
Frank Bullitt

Big Blue wrote:
Ah. The "once you've had it it becomes a must-have" trap.

I'm fucked: whatever the next iteration of the B5 is I'll need to either bankrupt myself buying and speccing a new one or hunt all of Europe for the right options.


Or keep the one you have.
gonnabuildabuggy

Big Blue wrote:
Ah. The "once you've had it it becomes a must-have" trap.

I'm fucked: whatever the next iteration of the B5 is I'll need to either bankrupt myself buying and speccing a new one or hunt all of Europe for the right options.


On a car like that I suspect you'll find one where the owner has spec'd it to the gunnels.

I quite fancy a nice 535d or 440iGC in a few years but I've no idea where I might find a well spec'd one  
Martin

As long as you're not frightened of a few miles and are ready in 12-18 months I'd be happy to help you out
Racing Teatray

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
Ah. The "once you've had it it becomes a must-have" trap.

I'm fucked: whatever the next iteration of the B5 is I'll need to either bankrupt myself buying and speccing a new one or hunt all of Europe for the right options.


On a car like that I suspect you'll find one where the owner has spec'd it to the gunnels.

I quite fancy a nice 535d or 440iGC in a few years but I've no idea where I might find a well spec'd one †


A few people said that about an M135i but now all seem to have vanished...
PhilD

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:


On a car like that I suspect you'll find one where the owner has spec'd it to the gunnels.




Those Alpina lot are a bit strange though. They will have collectively decided that something like satnav doesn't fit with the brand.
PG

Big Blue wrote:
Ah. The "once you've had it it becomes a must-have" trap.


Indeed.

Whenever I spec cars online now I find myself ticking "heated and cooled seats" and "voodoo cruise control" and then thinking "how much?".
Racing Teatray

Still available...and now with a nice round £1k hacked off the asking price....
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

What are you going to do if it sells before the 440 arrives?
Racing Teatray

Relax happily. We live in central London and have another car.

The 440i went to build last week, so in principle there should be no issue there.

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