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Twelfth Monkey

RDQ: All you can eat?

Ever dined at such a place, if indeed dining is the word?

I haven't and doubt I ever will, but found the notion of this documentary interesting enough to watch it:

http://www.channel4.com/programme...alorie-buffet/on-demand/62770-001

It's grimly fascinating, and hard not to conclude that those featured on both sides truly deserve one another.

Serious point though, given rampant obesity and the sedentary lifestyle that so many have (and which seems to have a significant negative effect on almost all aspects of health) - are such places 'ethical'?   Imagine an 'all you can drink' pub, for example.

Given the costs to the NHS, I'd do something about such places - even if it was just a decent slug of additional tax.

Thoughts?  Especially if you watched the programme, or can stomach doing so!
Humphrey The Pug

I think I have, but maybe once only; it was that memorable!

My colleague occasionally eats at his local one which is situated in a rather rough area of Hampshire (does an ok Sunday roast apparently), the tales he tells me of the fatties that just pile it up and go back for more, is quite shocking.

There is always a queue outside the KFC and Burger King also deliver in his area too!

I will try and catch that on 4OD (or whatever it is called now) tonight; reminder set on my phone.
Martin

I went to rooftop restaurant at the Fairmont in Monaco for Sunday Lunch and that was a buffet, both the food and champagne was unlimited....I didn't feel bad about it at all.

I have been to all you can eat places, but not for many years, mainly as a kid in holidays to the USA and I wouldn't go in one now, I like food too much.

The closest I get is banquet night in our local Indian or Chinese.   It's 'all you can eat', but not a buffet, you just order the dishes you want and they cook them fresh.  The dishes are smaller than normal, so I have more variety than than quantity.
Twelfth Monkey

Humphrey The Pug wrote:

I will try and catch that on 4OD (or whatever it is called now) tonight; reminder set on my phone.


Will that ping through to your watch?!
Humphrey The Pug

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Humphrey The Pug wrote:

I will try and catch that on 4OD (or whatever it is called now) tonight; reminder set on my phone.


Will that ping through to your watch?!


Erm not sure, I'll set something for 10 minutes time and let you know, I think it does.

*edit* Yes it does:


Twelfth Monkey

Big Blue

I've been to one with a mate after football. The food is shite but if you're hungry it fills a gap.
Nice Guy Eddie

Go to Buffet Breakfast every time I'm in a hotel and love it. Best recently was in Dubai where I had a breakfast made up of an Indian, Malaysian and European. It worked as each station was made up of nationals from that country so I trusted that they know what they were doing.

I never usually like going to Restaurants that don't know their identity like Bills where you can get anything from a Green Curry to a Shepherds Pie but cooked in the microwave but someone on minimum wage.

A few years ago we used to have the pizza hut challenge at work, where you could eat as much Pizza as you like for £5.99, the record I think was something like 17 slices.
Twelfth Monkey

Anyone else getting the eBay banner ad with the three morbidly obese women and tagline 'love your curves this season'?

Accepting your imperfections is healthy and a Very Good Thing.  Rejoicing in how many years you are lopping off your life, perhaps another.
Grampa

I've eaten at such places a few times - not really what I would choose but people I've been with have been keen - the places I've been to have been 'world cuisine' types of places.  The worst thing is you're tempted to choose all sorts of things that don't really complement each other, and yes we've probably eaten a little more than we would have normally, more out of curiosity of trying different things, but as we don't make a habit of going to such places it's not been a problem.

One place (somewhere in the docks at Bristol which was staggeringly busy - called something like Zsa Zsa something?) the food was as poor as you'd expect, but the other two - one in Blackpool and one in Cardiff the food actually slightly exceeded my expectations.

I have to say though that obscene gluttony hasn't been much in evidence when I have been to these places - you maybe see one or two tables with people who clearly have no 'I'm full' trigger, but these places wouldn't be able to make any money if the majority of people who visit them take the piss.

On the one occasion, where anything I wanted to eat has been available for more than just one meal - on a cruise - I went the other way - seeing so much food available was a little off putting so I ate no more than I would normally (had a cooked breakfast for the first two days and then it was too much) - and with a gym and a running course on hand together with the time to use them, it was actually a holiday where I went home a bit slimmer than when I arrived.
Boxer6

One of our local Indian places used to do all-you-can-eat buffets, but it really wasn't up to much; ditto a carvery-type place fairly close by - equally crap.

The two places I did like were the Albany Hotel in Glasgow (JohnC will remember it I expect) which did  terrific carvery AYCEB at New Year, and a wee pub in a place called Longcroft which has now closed, sadly. Both of these did good quality meats and vegetables, which in the case of the pub almost certainly contributed to its' demise; people simply don't want to pay more than £9-10 for even a 3-course Sunday dinner these days.
Andy C

Local carvery midweek special -  £3.99.  You get the choice of 4 meats and everything else is unlimited; spuds, mash, veg

My plate is often that full I have to have a side plate for the extras

Cheap and cheerful but it does the job
Humphrey The Pug

Andy C wrote:
Local carvery midweek special -  £3.99.  You get the choice of 4 meats and everything else is unlimited; spuds, mash, veg

My plate is often that full I have to have a side plate for the extras

Cheap and cheerful but it does the job


How the hell can somewhere do an all you can eat for £4; ok it won't be top quality but that is proper cheap.
JohnC

Boxer6 wrote:
One of our local Indian places used to do all-you-can-eat buffets, but it really wasn't up to much; ditto a carvery-type place fairly close by - equally crap.

The two places I did like were the Albany Hotel in Glasgow (JohnC will remember it I expect) which did  terrific carvery AYCEB at New Year, and a wee pub in a place called Longcroft which has now closed, sadly. Both of these did good quality meats and vegetables, which in the case of the pub almost certainly contributed to its' demise; people simply don't want to pay more than £9-10 for even a 3-course Sunday dinner these days.


I do indeed remember the Albany. My Dad used to take me there on a Friday lunchtime every week when we both worked in town - my first job was in an office just down Bothwell Street.

My only AYCE was again work related and was to an Indian restaurant which was in an old cinema (now burnt down). We used to go once a month at pay day time. I was super fit back then and could eat mountains of food but I couldn't when I went to this Indian. I later concluded that they must have put something like Bicarbonate of Soda in the food because after a modest amount I always felt blown up and full.
TreVoR

Not through choice.  The one and only time was a Chinese buffet at Teesside Park a couple of years ago after a TVRCC bowling night.

I have memories as a kid going to the Metro Centre. We always used to park in the blue multi storey and at the entrance to the mall was a place called "Big Luke's".  The trays of food congealing under hot lights was enough to put anyone off you would have thought, but the queues of heifers standing outside for hours waiting to stuff their faces never seemed to end.
simonp

Been to a few Chinese ones, an Indian Sunday lunch one and Pizza Hut used to do them at lunchtime, too, went there once as well. Also, the cruise we went on had an all you can eat breakfast. The Yanks would just take a tray with about 4 kg of food on it back to where they were sitting and then leave most of it. Criminal really...
Roadrunner

I have eaten at an unlimited food and champagne buffet in California. The quality was good, and it was easy to see why so many of the locals would have difficulty slipping into the driving seat of a Morgan 4/4. As a one-off expereince it was fine, but not something I intend to repeat with regularity.
PhilD

Re: RDQ: All you can eat?

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Imagine an 'all you can drink' pub, for example.


I've been to a few. Great fun  
Twelfth Monkey

Not for a one-off, fixed price, I take it!

Seems I'm the only one who thinks this sort of stuff is a Bad Idea - one of the food 'challenges' in the doc was two hot dogs that defied belief, and contained enough calories to constitute an adult male's intake for four days - all to be eaten in one hour.  The prize?  Some vouchers to eat there again...
PhilD

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Not for a one-off, fixed price, I take it!

Seems I'm the only one who thinks this sort of stuff is a Bad Idea - one of the food 'challenges' in the doc was two hot dogs that defied belief, and contained enough calories to constitute an adult male's intake for four days - all to be eaten in one hour.  The prize?  Some vouchers to eat there again...


Yes for one off fixed price. This place does food too and is very good.

http://www.cookbookcafe.co.uk/

and I agree with you, generally a very bad idea.
Big Blue

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Not for a one-off, fixed price, I take it!
..


All you can drink clubs were fairly common in the '90s. You paid £20 on the door and got given a plastic beaker which was filled on request at the bar. Some charged you again if you lost the beaker; some didn't. It was piss water beer and house spirits but for a night out it was fine.

For every person intent on drinking themselves into a coma there was someone sipping lime cordial all night so it balanced itself out. Plus I'm sure there was room for additional earnings from stuff sold by men standing around looking furtive whilst trying not to.
Grampa

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Not for a one-off, fixed price, I take it!

Seems I'm the only one who thinks this sort of stuff is a Bad Idea - one of the food 'challenges' in the doc was two hot dogs that defied belief, and contained enough calories to constitute an adult male's intake for four days - all to be eaten in one hour.  The prize?  Some vouchers to eat there again...


I guess most of the people here, and from what I've seen in the four times I've been to three different places, also most of the customers, know how to exercise self restraint so don't see them as particularly evil places.  I'd guess that the people who go there to eat 2x as much as a normal person would go and buy two large portions of chips from the local chippy or whatever anyway, so I don't know that they would contribute that much to the obesity problem.

The competitions to eat large amounts of food turn my stomach just to think about them - have you ever seen that TV programme called 'Man v food' - my son in law thinks it's brilliant TV (he's slim and fit enough to run a half marathon BTW) but it made me feel ill when I watched it.
BeN

Lots of times, but I do have self-control and make sure I don't overload myself.

I just go for the good stuff in moderation.
Michael

Re: RDQ: All you can eat?

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Given the costs to the NHS, I'd do something about such places - even if it was just a decent slug of additional tax.


Taxing food is a nightmare subject so good luck with that. I think I'd prefer the route where the scope of the NHS was reviewed and people took a bit more responsibility for their own health.
Boxer6

Grampa wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Not for a one-off, fixed price, I take it!

Seems I'm the only one who thinks this sort of stuff is a Bad Idea - one of the food 'challenges' in the doc was two hot dogs that defied belief, and contained enough calories to constitute an adult male's intake for four days - all to be eaten in one hour.  The prize?  Some vouchers to eat there again...


I guess most of the people here, and from what I've seen in the four times I've been to three different places, also most of the customers, know how to exercise self restraint so don't see them as particularly evil places.  I'd guess that the people who go there to eat 2x as much as a normal person would go and buy two large portions of chips from the local chippy or whatever anyway, so I don't know that they would contribute that much to the obesity problem.

The competitions to eat large amounts of food turn my stomach just to think about them - have you ever seen that TV programme called 'Man v food' - my son in law thinks it's brilliant TV (he's slim and fit enough to run a half marathon BTW) but it made me feel ill when I watched it.


Only seen it a couple of times, for about 5 minutes each time - turned my stomach too.

I'm sure I read somewhere the guy who presented it (and ate all the food!) has given it up and turned vegetarian!!  
gonnabuildabuggy

Grampa wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Not for a one-off, fixed price, I take it!

Seems I'm the only one who thinks this sort of stuff is a Bad Idea - one of the food 'challenges' in the doc was two hot dogs that defied belief, and contained enough calories to constitute an adult male's intake for four days - all to be eaten in one hour.  The prize?  Some vouchers to eat there again...


I guess most of the people here, and from what I've seen in the four times I've been to three different places, also most of the customers, know how to exercise self restraint so don't see them as particularly evil places.  I'd guess that the people who go there to eat 2x as much as a normal person would go and buy two large portions of chips from the local chippy or whatever anyway, so I don't know that they would contribute that much to the obesity problem.

The competitions to eat large amounts of food turn my stomach just to think about them - have you ever seen that TV programme called 'Man v food' - my son in law thinks it's brilliant TV (he's slim and fit enough to run a half marathon BTW) but it made me feel ill when I watched it.


I've eaten in plenty of these places.

Been to Za Za Bazaar in Bristol twice, and also one in Newcastle (next to the Travelodge) a few times post GNR too. I've also done Red Hot Buffet in MK a few times though that was mainly due to the kids.

They aren't the last word in food quality, but neither are the awful too IMHO.

If you are paying £15.00 for a meal (or less) and £2.00 for endless drink re-fills then it's a lot better value in many ways than the £55 per head I spent in the local (excellent) Italian last weekend, though the wine was very good.

It also resolves the issue of who wants to eat what if you're out in group.

As with all things foody, then it's cheaper to eat badly than eat well and it's about self-restraint. I'll have small portions and not eat too many times, and let's face it I go about 4 times per year so it won't kill me.

As an aside, Red Hot in MK food's is pretty rubbish in my opinion but our Indian exchange students judged their Indian food as the most authentic they found in 3 weeks in the UK so what do I know.

I'd be taxing TV before I tax food. People might die from not being able to afford to eat, they won't die from not watching television and I reckon it's the sedentary lifestyle as much to blame as over-eating.

I've just added twice weekly circuit training to my weekly running and I'm sure it's making a big difference to my fitness (and I'm already pretty fit).
PhilD

Re: RDQ: All you can eat?

Michael wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Given the costs to the NHS, I'd do something about such places - even if it was just a decent slug of additional tax.


Taxing food is a nightmare subject so good luck with that. I think I'd prefer the route where the scope of the NHS was reviewed and people took a bit more responsibility for their own health.


Agree with no tax - it's impossible.  But then so is "people took a bit more responsibility for their own health"!
Boxer6

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
 

I'd be taxing TV before I tax food. People might die from not being able to afford to eat, they won't die from not watching television and I reckon it's the sedentary lifestyle as much to blame as over-eating.


Ermm, they already do that - it's called the TV Licence!  
Bob Sacamano

TreVoR wrote:
Not through choice.  The one and only time was a Chinese buffet at Teesside Park a couple of years ago after a TVRCC bowling night.

I have memories as a kid going to the Metro Centre. We always used to park in the blue multi storey and at the entrance to the mall was a place called "Big Luke's".  The trays of food congealing under hot lights was enough to put anyone off you would have thought, but the queues of heifers standing outside for hours waiting to stuff their faces never seemed to end.


We used to do that to and as you came into the Mall Big Luke's was on the left, always a queue, but it never tempted me.

I've never been to an all you can eat place and it doesn't appeal. I don't have a great appetite so if I have a starter I don't have a desert and vice versa.

As for all you can drink pubs - I thought all of them were?
PG

I've been to Jimmy Spices in Birmingham once. It was useful as it allowed people to have a choice of multiple cuisines under one roof. And most people there didn't seem to be over-indulging.

Looking at 12ths example, I think the issue is not so much the all you can eat places as much as people's complete lack of restraint for "food" (well I use that term loosely as it's sugar laden crap mostly).
Stuntman

I'll just leave this here...

http://www.heartattackgrill.com/

(It opens a video with sound, so NSFW unless you can mute it)
Mike Amos

I have been to a few but the Popeye's in Riyadh has to be the best.  I found I was happier with the quality rather than the quantity.

There was also a chicken grill place in Riyadh, just down the road from my apartment that did great spatchcock chicken again quality over quantity.  Luvvly jubbly.

When Sara was around we went to Jimmy Spice in Sutton coldfield that was very good but not to overindulge, rather to experiment with fusion of styles.  Their deserts were very much over sweetened but OK in small amounts.

http://www.suttoncoldfieldobserve.../story-29139021-detail/story.html
gooner

PG wrote:
I've been to Jimmy Spices in Birmingham once. It was useful as it allowed people to have a choice of multiple cuisines under one roof. And most people there didn't seem to be over-indulging.


I went to the Jimmy Spice in Solihull a few years back and it was bloody awful. There is indeed a lot of choices of cuisine but none done to a standard much above what you'd find in a high school canteen. The price coupled to the idea of eating as much as you like sounds great on the face of it but after two plates you realise there's nothing else you'd want to eat. And of course the pudding section is mostly small slices of cheap wholesalers cake or jelly.

The best I had was at a Chinese in Harrogate. I think it was £15 a Head but you chose items off a menu and they'd bring them fresh out to your table. I was there with three colleagues and we just ordered a load of different dishes and shared them around. All were very well done too.
garry

About 10 years ago my brother and I were barred from a place in Harrogate that had a challenge meal. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I think it was a three pound steak and all the trimmings that was free if eaten  in one hour. We were both ironman training and did a bike loop that took in Harrogate at about 90 miles in to the ride. We turned up the first week to a few sniggers as we ordered ( two 11 stone blokes in Lycra can have that effect). The third time we arrived the manager told us that it was a challenge we could only do once!
Humphrey The Pug

I watched the 20,000,00 calorie Buffet last night, what astounded me was the claim that we in the UK spend on average £4k a year eating out (I assume this also includes takeaways) that is mental, we certainly don't spend anything near that on eating out or takeaways.

Tina met up with a friend recently, who she hadn't seen for a while, her and her husband had lost loads of weight, it transpired that they and their 3 kids had at least 3 takeaways a week, they stopped and started eating properly, apart from the shit food aspect, they must have been spending a small fortune on food.

That slim bearded bloke eating those massive chilli hot dogs and the 20 odd plates at the all  you can eat, he was mental, I still can't work out where the food actually went.
TreVoR

Generally, we eat out once or twice a week. If we have a curry it is about £30 or the local Italian about £40. Sunday Lunch at the pub is a similar amount with drinks.

That adds up to about £3,600 a year, give or take.

Landlord has just put the beer up 15p per pint!  People are not happy.
Twelfth Monkey

Re: RDQ: All you can eat?

PhilD wrote:
Michael wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Given the costs to the NHS, I'd do something about such places - even if it was just a decent slug of additional tax.


Taxing food is a nightmare subject so good luck with that. I think I'd prefer the route where the scope of the NHS was reviewed and people took a bit more responsibility for their own health.


Agree with no tax - it's impossible.  But then so is "people took a bit more responsibility for their own health"!


Who mentioned taxing food?  I mean taxing establishments that operate in this way, which is perfectly plausible.
PhilD

Re: RDQ: All you can eat?

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Michael wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Given the costs to the NHS, I'd do something about such places - even if it was just a decent slug of additional tax.


Taxing food is a nightmare subject so good luck with that. I think I'd prefer the route where the scope of the NHS was reviewed and people took a bit more responsibility for their own health.


Agree with no tax - it's impossible.  But then so is "people took a bit more responsibility for their own health"!


Who mentioned taxing food?  I mean taxing establishments that operate in this way, which is perfectly plausible.


Ah, I see. So not taxing what they sell but the way they sell it? How would that work?
Andy C

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
Andy C wrote:
Local carvery midweek special -  £3.99.  You get the choice of 4 meats and everything else is unlimited; spuds, mash, veg

My plate is often that full I have to have a side plate for the extras

Cheap and cheerful but it does the job


How the hell can somewhere do an all you can eat for £4; ok it won't be top quality but that is proper cheap.


Dunno, but they're always busy . They offer takeaways too
Blarno

I used to indulge in all you can eat Indian buffets on a regular basis, before the kids came along. You'd have to be a serious fatty to ever really get more than your money's worth.

There is also an all you can eat thing not too far from me that is like the one on the programme - all kinds of different foods. You pay a set price, plus extra for a refillable soft drink and away you go. The food isn't that bad considering, provided you plan your attack and get it as it is brought to the warmer (burgers especially - no one should ever have to suffer a tepid, limp burger). The main issue is the clientele: Almost all overweight, tracksuit wearing scrotters with 17 kids (Kids who are seemingly allowed free reign to do what they please). Noisy. boisterous and downright rude parents, piling their plates beyond the capabilities of anyone but King Kong - the waste is shocking. I tend to grab a little bit of something I like, then finish it and go back for something else if the mood takes me. I haven't been there for a few years now - I've cut down on eating shit food recently and feel much better for it.

Re: Eddie and the pizza challenge: A mate and I had an unofficial Pizza Hut challenge on the go until a couple of years back - each of us would go to Pizza Hut during buffet hours and see how many slices and bowls of salad we could consume. Anecdotal evidence was required of how much was consumed (Wives usually). The record was set by mate at 17 slices and 2 bowls of salad. I got to 15 slices and 2 bowls. Both of us have knocked our eating habits on the head a bit now.
simonp

gooner wrote:
PG wrote:
I've been to Jimmy Spices in Birmingham once. It was useful as it allowed people to have a choice of multiple cuisines under one roof. And most people there didn't seem to be over-indulging.


I went to the Jimmy Spice in Solihull a few years back and it was bloody awful. There is indeed a lot of choices of cuisine but none done to a standard much above what you'd find in a high school canteen. The price coupled to the idea of eating as much as you like sounds great on the face of it but after two plates you realise there's nothing else you'd want to eat. And of course the pudding section is mostly small slices of cheap wholesalers cake or jelly.


I've not been, but most people say the same about the one in Bath.
Twelfth Monkey

Phil, I think you could do that in many ways - a fixed tax on food outlets without fixed pricing, maybe. It's more the principle that I am on about, rather than the detail. That's better devised by someone who knows the fast food industry.
PhilD

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Phil, I think you could do that in many ways - a fixed tax on food outlets without fixed pricing, maybe. It's more the principle that I am on about, rather than the detail. That's better devised by someone who knows the fast food industry.


And there's the thing, politicians/rule makers get a hard time but it's often not that easy to make a principle into a reality. If you taxed all you can eat places then they'd change to '10 plates' places or find some other way around it.

Probably easier just to tax fat people  
Bob Sacamano

PhilD wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Phil, I think you could do that in many ways - a fixed tax on food outlets without fixed pricing, maybe. It's more the principle that I am on about, rather than the detail. That's better devised by someone who knows the fast food industry.


And there's the thing, politicians/rule makers get a hard time but it's often not that easy to make a principle into a reality. If you taxed all you can eat places then they'd change to '10 plates' places or find some other way around it.

Probably easier just to tax fat people  


Or at least make the bastards buy two seats on the plane.
PG

simonp wrote:
gooner wrote:
PG wrote:
I've been to Jimmy Spices in Birmingham once. It was useful as it allowed people to have a choice of multiple cuisines under one roof. And most people there didn't seem to be over-indulging.


I went to the Jimmy Spice in Solihull a few years back and it was bloody awful. There is indeed a lot of choices of cuisine but none done to a standard much above what you'd find in a high school canteen. The price coupled to the idea of eating as much as you like sounds great on the face of it but after two plates you realise there's nothing else you'd want to eat. And of course the pudding section is mostly small slices of cheap wholesalers cake or jelly.


I've not been, but most people say the same about the one in Bath.


I said i'd been. I didn't say I'd go back.  
Michael

PhilD wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Phil, I think you could do that in many ways - a fixed tax on food outlets without fixed pricing, maybe. It's more the principle that I am on about, rather than the detail. That's better devised by someone who knows the fast food industry.


And there's the thing, politicians/rule makers get a hard time but it's often not that easy to make a principle into a reality. If you taxed all you can eat places then they'd change to '10 plates' places or find some other way around it.

Probably easier just to tax fat people  


I caught this over the weekend and I don't think it would be right to tax the venues, it's about personal responsibility about who chooses to abuse their own bodies and my thoughts viewing the show where that I would hope the fat guy would be refused bariatric surgery on the NHS. As pointed out elsewhere the idea of asking people to take some responsibility for their own health is as fraught with difficulty as taxation but so unsustainable is the NHS model means that is the only way to go.
There are some efforts to regulate multibuy sales in supermarkets, it might have already happened in Scotland, but that's the closest example of quantity regulation I can think of.
Bob Sacamano

Michael wrote:


I caught this over the weekend and I don't think it would be right to tax the venues, it's about personal responsibility about who chooses to abuse their own bodies and my thoughts viewing the show where that I would hope the fat guy would be refused bariatric surgery on the NHS. As pointed out elsewhere the idea of asking people to take some responsibility for their own health is as fraught with difficulty as taxation but so unsustainable is the NHS model means that is the only way to go.
There are some efforts to regulate multibuy sales in supermarkets, it might have already happened in Scotland, but that's the closest example of quantity regulation I can think of.


Yes, much as we moan about lack of money for the NHS, what will really kill it is us. We eat too much, binge of drugs and drink too much , are too sedentary, turn up at A&E for spurious reasons that could easiliy be treated at home, don't turn up for appointments etc.  And that's just me.

Because it's free at the point of use many don't value it, and those that pay least into it value it the least in my experience.
PhilD

Bob Sacamano wrote:


Because it's free at the point of use many don't value it, and those that pay least into it value it the least in my experience, and use it the most*


FYP

*maybe. I have no evidence beyond my own observations and there are obviously social and economic issues at play here etc etc)

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