Possible new purchase - help required

Clunes · Possible new purchase - help required

Depending on the situation with the ST220 I might be in the market for a new car soon so, as is the norm, I thought I'd throw it open to the forum.

If I do get a replacement it is probably going to end up being our 'family' car for some time. The family currently includes a large dog & small child (15 weeks) and I expect us to try for another child in the not too distant future.

So...Large, reliable, quality & prob estate
Auto/Manual and Petrol/Diesel not really an issue on this
Needs to have some poke as I don't like 'underpowered' cars and I like the idea of 'effortless' power rather than thrash the nuts of it

Budget - in the region of £20k (some leeway perhaps)

Fiancee would prefer an Audi or BMW. I am not against either but don't want to restrict our choices immediately.

BMW - 5 Series Touring (not sure a 3 would be large enough)
Audi - A6 Avant (as above RE: A4)

Other:
VW - Passat (R36 perhaps!)
Skoda Octavia
Subaru Legacy
Volvo V70

Any suggestions?

Thanks all,

Olly

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

A post-facelift 5 Series Touring would be hard to beat, going by recent experience:

http://themotor.myfastforum.org/about11912.html

Don't rule out petrol models either - BMW sixes are surprisingly economical. And they sound terrific.

[edit] Though there's also a forum favourite, a Legacy Spec B ...

gonnabuildabuggy

Hope that big bills aren't imminent on the ST220.

Personally I'd not spend £20K when you can spend £10 and get something very decent and put the rest towards paying down your mortgage a bit. If you've got the cash that's a slightly different matter.

My choice would be a nice E39 touring, either 530d or 530i petrol depending on your views on running costs - wafty and a BMW badge. Early E60's weren't such a nice place to be as Martin has commented. My Dad regretted selling his despite swapping to an X5 and would have one over his current Outback.

Views on the rest of your list
BMW - 5 Series Touring (not sure a 3 would be large enough) - see above, and yes, more space is worth it.
Audi - A6 Avant (as above RE: A4) - Love the looks of the current shape and a 2.7TDi probably ticks the boxes, just not the dogs handling wise

Other:
VW - Passat (R36 perhaps!) - good enough tool
Skoda Octavia - A vRS would make a useful tool and makes a statement
Subaru Legacy - I love these but fear rising petrol prices will make depreciation steep - but older ones are great value. A bit different as well.
Volvo V70 - big and safe but to me only makes sense in the upto £5K area as the newer ones aren't as good as the old in some ways.

Gurney

Totally left field choice as all the others are the usual (excellent) suspects.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/...eremy_clarkson/article2975606.ece

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Scary how this mirrors my feelings exactly:

Gurney

Me too.

Once upon a time I would remark 'I hope the poor person who has caused this is alright'

Now it's more 'I do hope the stupid fecker is in pain and subsequently contracts c-diff'

Shameful really.

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

It is shameful, but if (as so often) the accident was caused by the driver being on the phone, not concentrating, or half asleep, it's an understandable reaction.

Roadrunner

Legacy Spec-B. No-brainer.

SpecB

the other ct

Out of the list I think I’d go for a Passat R36. But it only comes with flappy paddles (I think?) so I'd have to have a long test drive and go in a multi-storey. Never driven a car with dual-clutch gearbox but imagine a car that size without the creep of a traditional torque converter might make it tricky to park.

Guitar Zero

You want a newish car with lots of warranty

You want a peerless chassis with a near perfect balance of ride, handling and steering awesomeness.

You want multi cylinder beef

You want tons and tons of space

........

Well, I give you the Mondeo 2.5T titanium estate

I can't actually find any second hand ones, but Drive the deal quote £18574 for a titanium estate in metallic with the 18s. If you want to go diesel, the same spec for the 2.2 tdci is £18326.

Used - 2008 58 plate Titanium Xs are circa £17k - like this one here :

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...ture=2008&vehicleRegLetter=58

IIRC, the 2.5t does 0 to 100 mph in 18 seconds - so it's ball park performance to your ST220. However, you can blue fin them to over 260 bhp if you so wish and I think Mountune may be doing an upgrade package soon like that offered for the ST Focus.

Clunes

Cheers for the replies so far

GZ- I havn't ruled out another Mondeo - although a change might be nice I have to be sensible and it does tick most/all boxes

It would (almost) certainly have to be the 2.5 but I also failed to find any second hand. Even though a new one would fall in budget I'd still prefer to save by getting nearly new. I had wondered about the Mountune stuff as well

(Slightly left field but related in engine terms - V70 Rs look decent value)

Scooby Spec B is a car I've always liked - only real question mark would be space (looking at the figures it's the same as a 3-series and the extra space of a 5-equivalent would be a plus).

The problem with the missus preferences (Audi/BMW) is the cost involved in getting a decent spec/engine combo - when was the face lift - late 2007?

ct - Never thought about flappy paddles in that situation. To be honest I think I may have to put 'sensible' above pure driving involvement - hence the reason manual is not a requirement.

R36 looks like a lot of car for the money but I may just be drawn to the headline figures

I'm going to try and draw up a shortlist to pass by Helen and see where that gets us

Keep em coming - any experiences not already documented on the forum also welcome

Cheers,

Olly

ALF

A Legacy Spec B is comfortable, big, has the lazy power you need with no lag or rattle, and can really drive when you feel like it. One would expect good quality too. Poor mpg though.

Octavia vRS is available in great condition for half that cash, or new for less than the full budget. Buying new cars wastes money but it highly enjoyable... They drive really well, ride better than S-Lines/M Sports, and do 36mpg combined. Good cars - a little low-key inside would be the only issue.

All the recent cars with the beemer 3-litre petrol 6 have great economy/emissions for the performance and noise.

R36 is the sort of quirky rare car I personally love, but paddles only. I like changing gear. Not sure if this is an issue to you - in some ways having full control over the gears without knackering your clutch leg in traffic does appeal...

A6 and 5-series estates are chuffing huge, is that a problem? I don't find the cooking variants of either very exciting - though a 530 would be nice - the new A4 might be a better size (also quite large!).

Spend a bit more and A5 sportback? That's a car I'm sure I'll have one day, great layout/looks and probably good on depreciation too.

scamper

Those R36's look great value - why spend 20k plus on an 08 plate when there seems to be slightly earlier ones with little miles for around 14k? Who cares if they on'y have half leather and 17's. What am I missing?

Is this the same engine as in the R32 Golf?

Clunes

The cheapest R36 Wagon I can find is just under £24k (there is a 3.2 V6 version which may be the one you've seen on 17s at lower prices)

It's a bored version of the R32 engine and puts out a few ponies shy of 300

I dropped by a local VW garage this morning after taking the dog out, had a brief look around one, sat in it/started it up and I was very pleasantly surprised.

The interior quality/design is much better in the flesh than the pics. The seats were half leather/Alcantara and were excellent and the general ambiance was definately a step up from the Mondeo and well up there with any BMW I've been in recently (although I've not been in an updated/facelift 5 yet)

No sat nav, no sunroof but I'm not fussed about that.

The engine sounded lovely as well and a good amount of room all round

Sure - it's a lot of money but, that said, no more than a well specced second hand 520d with higher miles

Anyway - it's still on the list (if things pan out that is)

ALF

Scamper, it's a 3.6, keep up!

It is a bored out, modernised version of the same, yes. One would imagine there would have been a Golf R36, had everyone not gone completely gay and stopped offering such things.

Clunes

Alf,

Changing gear myself is not a priority - so paddles might be the best of both worlds - lazy when I want (commute in M25 rush hour) and bit of fun when I want.

Also, size is not an issue - none of the above would ever fit in the garage and having enough space for the family to grow into is a plus.

BTW - I have to agree with your sentiment regarding the R36 - I tend to like slightly quirkier/rarer/not obvious choice cars myself (not that I've often had one) and it does appeal

That said, if I do need to go this route her indoors is going to have a much bigger say in the decision and I won't know whether a new purchase is properly on the cards until next week - but it's fun looking - I feel some test drives coming on over the weekend

scamper

SpecB

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...l.y=8&ukcarsearch_full=SEARCH

scamper

Nice looking legacys in that link at 3 years old. I looked at older boggo 03 plate ones before i plumped for the Impreza and the interiors certainly didn't seem to wear as well as the Impreza.

I'm pretty sure the boot is bigger than a 3 series touring Clunes - may be not much longer with the seats down, probebly more shallow, but definately wider and more usable.

SpecB

The Legacy is quite a bit bigger than a 3 but smaller than a 5.

Clunes

Cheers - definitely some tempting Spec B options and 1 auto close by (the slip end garage)

In terms of space I was going on the reported capacity in liters which appears to be close to the 3 but have not seen one in the flesh to judge for myself

Martin

I'd be seriously tempted by the R36. All the good points of mine (nice interior, well made, spacious etc), but with near 300hp, DSG box and a lovely engine note. Sounds good to me!

If you do look at a 5 series, it must be a post March 2007 facelifted car. There are loads of ways to tell the difference, but the two easiest are the auto gear selector (silver stubby) or the door cards (the aluminium/wood/plastic trim continues down the doors). The difference between the two is sizeable, the Passat is much nicer than the older one.

Not keen on any of the other suggestions. The Mondeo isn't nice inside (imo), you'd be better off waiting a couple of weeks and picking up an Insignia VXR for less than £20k!!!

Martin

A couple more suggestions (not recommendations!)

Chrysler 300c Estate (£18k for a 58 plate)
E320CDI Estate (£20k for a 57 plate)
Citroen C5 2.7HDI Estate
Vectra VXR (£18k for an 09 plate with 1k miles)

gonnabuildabuggy

Gurney

R36 wagon is loveliness personified, I certainly wouldn't say no. Only seen one on the road so far but it looked very 'right' indeed.

Guitar Zero

Now that DR has gone tits, has all the content vanished too ??

The reason I ask is because Chris Harris was running an R36 estate as a long termer and he loved it. Worth reading the articles if you are serious about an R36.

Is an S4 V8 estate too small ??, because this is tasty as hell and well on budget

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...ture=2005&vehicleRegLetter=05

ALF

scamper

Nicely speced S4 Avant, there.

Clunes

I read one article he posted with a back to back comparison between it and the new S4

Conclusion was - S4 is the better sports wagon but the R36 was the better family car (significantly more space etc)

I looked at S4 Avants a couple of years ago and, unfortunately, I don't think they are large enough. I know you can squeeze any family into any car and all but I'd rather not have to - but we will be looking again to make sure

I'm still waiting on the garage who has my ST to get round to looking at it so this may all be moot - but either way I will change soon so this is all very worthwhile

gonnabuildabuggy

This looks nice and 3 yrs warranty for £495 lloks good value if it's a "no exclusions" policy.

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...ture=2005&vehicleRegLetter=55

scamper

Nice, but is the 3 yr old examples with low miles worth the 3k more? Depends on your mileage.

gonnabuildabuggy

scamper

gonnabuildabuggy

I didn't think the one from the Skoda dealership was a Spec B or are all 3.0's Spec B's?

scamper

SpecB

Not all 3.0Rs are SpecBs. From 06 on the SpecB was the same as the 3.0R apart from the manual box and Bilsteins. From 07 on you could get the auto in SpecB and the normal 3.0R was dropped. 07 model from late 56 on has a nicer interior.

Apex clipper

Chris M Wants a V-10

Mondy 2.5T is basically a better-handling V70 T5. If you don't mind the lack of image of a Ford, it's no doubt much better value than a Volvo

gonnabuildabuggy

Clunes

Well,

We had a very quick look at some potential cars yesterday (no test drives yet) and, as expected, the choice pretty much splits into two camps (my better half has added some criteria as this is likely to become our 'family' car for a few years - so it has to be newer/lower mileage than I was originally prepared to go)

The two camps:

'Bottom of the range' premium

Audi A6 - Something like a 1 yr old 2.0T with low mileage - typically reasonable spec S-Line, leather etc. Was a very nice place to sit - some concern over the boot profile (the BMW appears to be much more usable due to the roof line/shape) but it didn't really do anything for me overall - and that's before driving.

E.g. http://usedcars.audi.co.uk/carview.aspx?id=600672987

BMW 520d - Similar spec - similar budget, similar performance etc (this really is the sensible choice when looking at most things - running costs/performance compromise - easy to sell on etc - impressive overall).

E.g. http://bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/auc/car_de....html?currentCh=WBAPX32010CX42749

On a side note - this was the first time I'd sat in a face lifted 5 and Martins comments are spot on - it is so much better - little things that make a huge difference to the overall feeling.

Second camp: Top of the range 'mid-premium'

Subaru Spec B

I am still pushing this but I think it's a no-go as my better(?) half is really uninterested and, as this will become a car we both use regularly her desires have to be factored in)

VW R36

Her comment 'I really wasn't expecting to like it but It's a lot nicer than I imagined'. She was very surprised at her reaction.

Mercedes are out as are most of the other more mainstream brands at this time.

Oh - and the 3-series/A4 size is definitely too small so at least we ruled those out.

Olly

Martin

You have exactly the same shortlist (for now!) that I would have in your position.

520d - Sensible with low overall running costs including mpg, depreciation etc but with plenty of space, nice interior, plenty of the 'feel good factor' and good to drive

R36 - Higher running costs, but a lot more performance and it still has plenty of space and a nice interior.

Agree with your thoughts on the A6, I was underwhelmed, even by the face lifted S Line.

It's a tough choice!! Most people will say the R36 (or similar) is a no brainer because of the performance, 6 cylinder etc, but you can't ignore running costs and as much as I like (love?!) the Passat, the BMW is a significant step up in quality/feel.

As always, a couple of decent test drives are essential.

Guitar Zero

http://bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/auc/car_de....html?currentCh=WBAPX520X0CT98317

Good price, brill interior, six cylinders

gonnabuildabuggy

my thoughts:

if you are going to have it a long term get what you really want. A small engined a6/5 makes sense but will it still give you a rush when you sit in it 2 yrs later, will you ever just go for a drive because you feel like it?

If you've something else to do that in (eg martins 130i/mini) then fine but otherwise get what you think you'd still like in 4 yrs time.

not sure why you're worried about age/mileage unless you plan to keep for a seriosly long time - most stuff today will do 100k/10yrs without a problem. I'm not suggesting you get a banger but i'd take a 3 yr old bigger engined car over a 4 cyl 1 yr old any day of the week.

PS what's the problem with the mondeo?

Martin

Mark

scamper

Is the 525d worth getting over the 520d? I've heard, there is not much between them performace wise.

"him"

Guitar Zero

Clunes

I'd spotted that 525d myself and it looks great but...this is where buying with your wife/fiancee etc makes a big (and not always positive) difference...

She really (I mean REALLY) doesn't want a beige interior as she is convinced it will get mucky very quickly and be a bugger to keep clean/looking good and she doesn't like them in general from an appearance perspective..

But...that discussion isn't over yet!

FYI - Update - the Mondeo is being looked at today so I don't know what is wrong yet but I'll let you all know a.s.a.p. as to the outcome

scamper

ALF

I heard a recent 330d go past me when I was walking along a roadside recently, and it actually sounded more a 6-pot engine, than a diesel - a first for me!

I've been in a 525d and it certainly didn't seem to lack poke...

scamper

I've driven a 530d, the one before the recent engine improvments, and it was bleedin quick and sounded good too.

Mark

Martin

I'd go for the 525d over the 520d in your position.

I don't quite agree with comments about the engine noise though, a diesel is a diesel no matter how many cylinders it has. The 530d I drove did have a faint 6 cylinder sound, but the overriding noise was that of a diesel. Don't get me wrong, it was pretty quiet, but then so is a 520d but you won't buy that for the engine note!

As for performance, the figures for the 520d and 525d are fairly close. The 530d was quite a bit quicker than the 520d (I drove them back to back), but if the 525d is somewhere in the middle then the difference won't be huge.

However, I would definately still go for the 525d providing it is the LCI model (as the one GZ linked to was).

I don't like the all beige interior either, but the black makes it very dark inside on the M Sport with the dark roof lining. There are a number of options, but the grey, blue and natural brown are horrible and beige is a little 'sickly' looking. So it would have to be black or cream beige for me.

The all black doesn't quite have the quality feel of a lighter interior for some reason. That's doesn't just apply to BMWs and is just my opinion!!

Clunes

I would definitely go for the 525d over 520d as well but.....as with many things involving the better half things can change at a moments notice!

Nothing is yet ruled out but the idea of trimming the budget is appealing and, ironically, this has brought the Spec B very much back into contention which is no bad thing (fuel consumption is not a big issue)

However, Helen would (much) prefer an automatic so, as we have two Spec B owners on the forum, one with a manual, the other with an auto I would be interested in opinions if they, or anyone else, has driven both.

Some of the performance info I've seen for the auto looks oddly poor in comparison to the manual (nearly 2 seconds slower to 100Kmh)

If I can sneak away from work tomorrow I hope to test drive this example which is not too far away:

http://www.subaru.co.uk/Subaru_co_uk/ViewMenu.qed?menuid=M0M10

Also - how much 'nicer' is the face lift version with the Si Drive and improved interior?

Cheers again,

Olly

SpecB

The link just comes up with Subaru's search facility. However if it is at a main dealer they may have an example of the pre and post-facelift cars for you to look at. The differences are noticeable but not a deal breaker.

The engine was upgraded for the post facelift which gives active valves on both intake and exhaust which is a big improvement. The SI drive is a bit gimmicky I suppose but it does make the manual easier to drive in traffic. It is more noticeable with the auto as it alters the auto's map as well as the throttle's.

The auto isn't a bad unit but my personal preference is the manual. Being a powerful AWD car the clutch can be tricky which may mean the auto is the better bet for your wife. The later cars get paddles on the wheel for semi manual but the older cars can do this using the gearshift. The manual is stiff and notchy when cold but is fine when warmed up.

I think they stiffened the front of the car for better handling as well.

The older ones have a silver centre console and the newer ones have a black one. The newer radio also has the option of a aux input for iPod etc where as the older ones don't and you would have to get a hard wired FM modulator. The dials overlap in the older ones where as they don't in the newer ones.

There are a few other styling tweaks outside - the bootlid has a chrome strip on the newer ones, the bumpers are bigger and the mirrors have the indicators in the middle as opposed to on the bottom.

I hope this helps. I'm sure Boxer6 will be along to mention something specific to the auto or anything else I may have forgotten.

Martin

The auto does seem to be a lot slower than the manual (on paper), which is pretty strange. At 8.4 seconds 0-60, there would be no difference between that and a 520d auto at the TLGP!

It would definately have to be a manual then, as even though you say mpg isn't an issue, circa 30mpg for that level of performance isn't great.

The std spec looks excellent though, it's not short of much!!

SpecB

I nearly forgot - you get bi-Xenons (both dipped and main use the xenons and main uses an extra halogen plus moves the xenon position - brilliant) in the newer car as opposed to normal halogen projectors which are a bit like candles in jam jars apparently.

Martin

Ahh, the performance difference must be down to gearing, which also must explain why the Auto have lower CO2 emissions? (both over 225 though)

The Auto is higher geared in 5th (27.1mph/1000rpm) than the Manual is in 6th (25.1mph/1000rpm) and the same applies through the gears with 3rd in the manual equalling 2nd in the auto.

The MINI has similar Bi-Xenons, with the same Xenon unit providing both dipped and main beam.

Guitar Zero

On a purely objective level - just looking at the stats, the Spec B appears to suffer from the MG ZT V8 syndrome - i.e, it's not fast enough to justify it's fuel economy.

IIRC, when Autocar tested the Spec B manual, it did 23.9 mpg on the touring route and 0 to 100 mph in 18 and a bit seconds. If you look at a post March 23rd 2006 car, the road tax is going to be £435 a year. I also understand that depreciation is Volvo-esque (i.e, horrific)

It may be wonderful to drive, but I personally wouldn't be happy incurring those kind of costs without the requisite sledghammer to the kidneys type performance

SpecB

The problem with performance is that everyone looks at the 0-60 times. It's the mid-range where I really notice the performance - especially overtaking. The ability to put a lot of power down very early out of a corner makes it a quick car.

I do agree that the fuel economy doesn't match the figures to an extent but it is permanent AWD with a proper centre differential and I also agree that it could do with a tad more power - 245 bhp from a 3 litre is not that much.

The difference between the auto and the manual is certainly down to how it's geared.

Depreciation is fairly terrible so you do need to bear that in mind. If you are keeping it a long time then this is not so important. When I bought mine I knew I needed something that was going to keep me entertained for many years. I am planning on keeping this one ten years.

The car is far from perfect but the package as a whole makes me grin every time I drive it. One thing I don't mind is putting petrol in it!

Clunes

Thanks for the extra info...

Depreciation is definitely something I have to take into account (and the same could be said for many cars in this price/performance bracket)

(The one I tried to link to is the black 07 plate at Slip end garage http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es....y=17&ukcarsearch_full=SEARCH)

It is probably going to still drop like a stone but most of these 'middle of the road' marques with large engines shed cash. (The main reason for me looking at this in particular is proximity and limited time today.)

The alternatives which are 'safer' bets are typically the 2.0 turbo diesels from the same manufacturers and I'm not sure I really want to drive one day in day out although Helen has the sensible head on and is pushing that point but she also prefers newer)

I get my fuel paid whether I have a company or private car (well, I pay the tax) hence the reason it's not the top issue for me.

After that - the costs of insurance, servicing and tax are, of course, not to be sniffed at.

At the end of the day - I want something practical enough for Helen when she needs to cart the dog, kid etc around and interesting enough for me to enjoy the commute and weekends and that will last us a few years minimum.

Mark

I think I’d quickly become bored of the Legacy’s (relatively) utilitarian nature – I know it’s plusher than most Subaru’s but that’s not difficult.

And the fuel economy is woeful (regardless of who’s paying for it) for what it is.

I’d probably consider one but within 6-12 months, my eyes would be wandering.

SpecB

That's probably priced a couple of hundred over the odds but certainly worth a look. It would be a good buy at £16.

Parkers (I know) have mine at £12.5k private and at a dealer £15-16k.

scamper

Guitar Zero

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...ture=2005&vehicleRegLetter=54

If your considering low 20s mpg - at least do it properly

SpecB

SpecB

Mark

SpecB

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Sounds as though Subaru needs an Efficient Dynamics programme: keep the flat six as the USP, but improve its mpg and CO2.

Mark

Martin

Martin

The biggest problem I have with fuel consumption is range. I can't think of anything at the moment that I hate more than filling up with fuel. I don't like stopping on journeys anyway, but having to go through the fill up process (especially in the winter) and then wait behind people either doiing their weekly shop or buying a coffee is just the icing on the cake.

What size tank does the Legacy have?

Is its something like 60 litres and you manage 28mpg, then that's a max range of 370 miles or closer to 300 miles useable range. I'd have to fill up twice every 3 days!! The Jetta is managing 550 miles which isn't too bad, I'm hoping for more like 650-700 from the BMW which is in line with what I got from the Passat.

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Totally agree, Martin - one of the many reasons I wish I'd bought an LHD car, as it gets a far bigger tank. One of my particular pet hates (as it's a journey I do quite often) is that I can't quite get between Berlin and Calais on two tankfulls.

SpecB

Guitar Zero

Pre-facelift E60s aren't that bad, they are still better than most other stuff out there.

Boxer6

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

I would have though someone like ABP would have a recommended brake upgrade for it.

http://www.abpmotorsport.co.uk

Boxer6

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

I know they do loads of stuff for Imprezas - they did the brakes on a friend of mine's Mk I Turbo.

Martin

Great place ABP, Chris knows his stuff. They are less than a mile from my parents and have serviced our cars for years. They rebuilt the engine on the Sprite, taking it to 1340cc and doing all sorts of interesting stuff (Cooper S and racing parts) that made it a lot quicker than it was when it went in!!

Martin

Clunes

This will be a private car - no company involvement so I will be paying the ~400 in yearly road tax.

Even with a private car I am eligible for a fuel card - hence the mpg comment.

Guitar Zero

Wild card

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es...ture=2006&vehicleRegLetter=56

JohnC

Clunes

Interesting...

I'll look into it but to date (5 years) I've only ever paid the tax on the benefit at the end of the year on total fuel on the card - I've never had to keep logs of journeys etc (I don't do any business miles -just commute)

E.g. On the 530i this worked out at 40% of the total fuel bill for the year of approx 2800 with no other charges

ALF

The Spec B is indeed an "underperformer" in terms of economy vs performance. GZ calls is MG ZT B8 syndrome, I call it RX8 syndrome, either way it will bite if you do anything other than low miles. Some cars do the reverse, notably the BMW 3-litre petrol 6's and the IS-F. The latter manages nigh on 25mpg even in the hands of a magazine tester...

Beware small tank size/range. Take it from someone who regularly does 1000 miles a week (usually only in 3 days of that week!) that you don't want to spend more time in fuel stations than you need to, and poor range will all too often force you into buying fuel at crazy prices - the last thing you need with a n inefficient car is to be buying fuel 6p a litre more than it could be!

Chaps, one thing you all need to realise is that auto CO2 (and to a lesser extent mpg) figures are faked - as per the article in Evo. For the official combined cycle in a manual car, gears are specified. An auto can be in any gear it wants and so they program them to just stick it in 6th/7th for the test. The lower emissions many auto and flappy paddle cars show is entirely down to that - and will not manifest itself in the real world.

As someone getting 36mpg from a petrol car that is neither small, light, or slow I would want distinctly better than that from a diesel, even a quick one - some of the figures mentioned in this thread for biggish quickish diesel cars don't seem to make a lot of sense to the private buyer not interested in emissions (as long as they are below 225) and needing to find more budget to buy a diesel in the first place.

Clunes

Due to my typical driving a small tank/range is not that big an issue for me. I only fill the mondeo weekly and that has a very small tank. I average less than 25mpg in that so the fuel cost of any of the options is not going to be significantly more than I already experience (not saying paying less isn't appealing though)

That said, the mondy is more efficient than the 530i auto I had and much better than the X3 2.5 Helen drives!

Martin

JohnC

JohnC

JohnC

Martin

PG

scamper

SpecB

I always love winding a mate of mine up about fuel economy when he states that his TT 225 has much better economy than the Legacy. I keep telling him it's because his TT is essentially a FWD Golf with a fancy clutch which is why his car does 360s on the spot in ice and mine doesn't!

scamper

Yes, my TT was not great on snow etc. Very secure in the wet though.

Mark