| Archive for The Motor Forum talking cars since 2006 |
| JohnC |
How did I miss this thread? I'll see what I can do over the next few days. | ||||||
| JohnC |
I decided to come to work early this morning to get a good few runs back and forward between two roundabouts on a nicely deserted dual carriageway.
Try as I might I couldn't get a time for 4th or 5th gear without the box changing down - I could do a 4th gear time but only on about half throttle to start with. Through the gears (2nd and 3rd with a change at about 56mph!) the best I could get was 3.98. I also had 4.10 and 4.14. When I kept the car in 3rd though the times proved what I had always felt - I need to let the torque do the work. The best time I got for this run was 3.38 with a 3.41 and a 3.46 as back up. I also did a 40 to 70 in 3rd which came in at 4.54 |
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| . |
Interesting times Martin for Patsy.
Having driven that hateful 2.0TDI Leon alot recently, it just doesn't feel any quicker than mine - which I would expect it to do given the power it should have (Don't think the 150 bhp fairy visited the engine that day...) plus the 6 ratios it has. |
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| JohnC |
I was out this afternoon and had a few goes at a 30 to 60 time in 4th gear.
A couple of attempts had the box changing down to 3rd (30mph is about 1250rpm in 4th) but I did manage 2 times by gentle acceleration to about 40mph, then flooring it. I got a 5.78 and a 6.30. I am sure I could beat that but finding a road quiet and flat enough AND getting the car going without changing down a gear is pretty difficult. EDIT: Nailed it on the way home. 2 runs: 4.88 and 5.07 Don't know how you average that lot out but the acceleration on the last two felt so exponential - it's very addictive this. |
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| . |
Still impressive times there...!
30-60 time tonight of 5.86 secs in 3rd. Quite chuffed with that to be honest. |
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| PR |
I'll have to see if I can extract some numbers from the 320d. On the basis that it felt no quicker than Tingtong I shall be interested to see what I find. | ||||||
| . |
But then nor does a Leon 2.0TDI and whilst the 3rd gear times from Patsy aren't much quicker, the 4th gear time is quite a bit quicker.
I would be interested too in the 320D times - had a blat with an A3 2.0TDI Sportback this morning and again it didn't pull away from me going from 20mph to 70mph. The black smoke was good though. I do like that a 335D and a Volvo D5 are posting some of the quickest times though. 
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| PR |
The 335d is no surprise as it is probably the second most powerful car after The Beast and almost certainly the torquiest. Volvo is slightly more of a turn up for the books!
I can't remember if Martin has done the 130i as well as Patsy as I type? That should do quite well. EDITED - yes Martin has and I also forgot Tim's M5 and Kraft's SL500 which are more powerful, plus of course franki's R8. |
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| . |
Old age. Yes he has and with very good times too. | ||||||
| Guitar Zero |
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| "him" |
It would seem that way, though I suspect as the speeds increased the Petrol engined cars would pull something back! (fingers crossed) 
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| . |
Meh!
Go alter my 30-60 time....
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| "him" |
As you asked so nicely... 
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| . |
Proper Job! | ||||||
| :-( |
Me too. |
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| "him" |
Thanks, we need some more 5th Gear figures for Diesel cars, they are a little thin on the ground... 
(Yes I know the turbo is "asleep", that is the point... Just ask Apex Clipper)
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| PR |
Very nice! I particularly like the suitably brown lines for the diesels, although I am duty bound to point out that Tingtong seems to have accidentally been given a blue line... 
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| "him" |
Oops...
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| . |
Nice graph none the less. |
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| "him" |
Fixed... and thanks! | ||||||
| TimR |
I know the times are the same but couldn't you put the Transit ahead of the Focus RS
Good to see you put the Luton bit in capitals
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| Apex clipper |
Yes. I agree. The guy has a point. Now let's think about this for a mo.. Able to carry pies and the latest redtop (Read: Sun) and a whole cocphaphy of sheer shite across the rather large frontal cabin. Or. *Ping! Was that knicker elastic..? 
I'll be over the moon when this FORUM upgrades.as most files don't load up. You dusting off those cars and dragging your arse to prescott then Transit lover? |
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| TimR |
Not a Transit lover thank god just a regular house mover. I would rather've been driving the Focus (ANY Focus actually, even a stinky diesel).
TBH I'm quite surprised the Focus RS is so off boost in 5th. I mean my Fiat pisses all over it but has the same power from the same size engine. Weird. What's the gearing in 5th? |
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| Apex clipper |
You don't believe? Minky Moo..says..Whispered in my ear...(Bless her)Who would you take on?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyfbRz4ObFY |
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| Apex clipper |
Tart. ..................................how about a chart for 2nd? I'll put... it at the top of the list after recording those times whilst behind a gritter lorry......covering slippy..sleet ice.... 5th gear.... my ARSE! |
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| GonnaBreakABuggy |
Hmm, stuck the fouquet (red) and buggy (green) in for comparison - badly, with paint, but hey.
Ok, maybe the 2wd buggy wasn't as slow as I thought it was! 
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| BeN |
A graph!
"him", you haven't updated the latest time for the Corolla. It is now 12 seconds, which I suppose pushes it up the ladder a bit... |
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| JohnC |
I'm afraid my car just won't do 30mph in 5th. I need to be doing about 40mph before 5th is an option - it's not that the car won't pull from 1000rpm, it's just that it won't change up a gear unless it's doing more than 1500rpm.
If you coast and allow the speed to fall, the car will hold on to a higher gear below 1500rpm but accelerating nearly always results in it changing down. When the car is over 1,500rpm it is very strong and from 1750rpm it just flies until it reaches about 4,400rpm when the urge slowly fades up to 5,000 where it's gone. In normal driving, keeping it between those bands isn't difficult and instant go is always on tap. However outwith those bands there is no denying that others are faster. The lowish gearing of 1st and 2nd gears also make some of these tests difficult. The car is a rocket in 2nd gear but below 30mph it spins wheels and then runs out of puff on the red line at about 57/58mph but in reality it is quicker to change up at c50mph. |
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| simonp |
I'll have to ask the Astra boys to get a remapped diesel's time to see what my old car would've done. I reckon it'll be a little too off-boost to do a really good time. | ||||||
| . |
Someone on the FFOC reckons they have 200bhp out of a 1.9CDTi 150hp?! Is this possible, they have a DTUK CRD remap I think.
Anyway: Is this cheating? I started at 25mph in third, starte the stop wath when I hit 30mph and stopped it at 61mph. I got a time of 5.46secs. Am I allowd this? "him" - can we have a judges decision? I think it should be, but for me only.
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| . |
Oi! I aint that far behind your times with my stinky diesel 4cyl 1.8 i'll have you know. |
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| PR |
1. Yes 2. No 
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| "him" |
Done... |
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| "him" |
A Piers has already said... YES, and NO!
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| . |
Gays. | ||||||
| PR |
Loser | ||||||
| . |
Whats your 30-60 time! Ha. | ||||||
| PR |
Sabotaged is what it is. Remind me who was wielding the stopwatch!!! I shall get an independent timer on the case. Like me, for example. |
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| . |
I was weilding the stopwatch. And I was accurate. Will you try it on a flat road next time or find another slope to do it on? | ||||||
| PR |
I saw you filling your coat pockets with lead and dumping a few sacks of cement in the boot. Don't think I didn't notice.
And the road went up as well as down - that was only fair compensation! |
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| SpecB |
Just got around to doing this.
I haven't got a through the gears time yet but 5th took 11.24 and 6th took 13 for the manual SpecB. |
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| simonp |
Yes it is possible. I've heard murmurings of a tuner who plans to fit a supercharger to a 1.9CDTI Astra and hopes to get near 300bhp out of it! The CRD2 isn't a remap, it's a tuning module that is plug and play. It basically interrupts the signal from the common rail to the ECU and kids the ECU into thinking that the fuel pressure is lower than it is. More fuel is then pumped in giving a higher rail pressure and more power. They work very well and are available for other diesel cars, too. An example is a BMW 335D which goes to 330bhp and 500lb/ft. |
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| Boxer6 |
Means my 12.14 in 5th pretty much splits your two times Mark. Did you use SportSharp, as I did? Be interesting to see your through-the-gears times too. |
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| SpecB |
Yes, Sport#. I will hopefully do the through gears tomorrow. |
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| Martin |
You should ask for your money back on your remap!
The Passat does pull really well, especially in 4th which is a great overtaking gear. When you look at the times it's only a fraction quicker than the 159 and about the same as the 320d which makes sense. I've had enough (pre 177hp) 320d's trying to outdrag me from roundabouts and onto dual carraigeways to know that there is nothing in it. My 2nd engine has always felt a bit stronger (and is slightly more economical) than the first and as it's done 68k miles (the car has done 88k), it's nicely run in and in its prime
Miles off the D5 though, that has put in some very impressive times. |
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| "him" |
Is yours the 170PS version or the 140PS? I had a "roll on" TLGP with a Golf "GTi TDi" (150) today from around 10MPH going round a roundabout onto a dual carriageway... He gave up before I got past out of 3rd gear. (with an "I give up" flash of lights)
Normally my car is stone cold on this part of the journey but I had gone somewhere beforehand today so the engine was warm. To be fair to him, a greasy roundabout and an embarrassment of low end grunt was never going to win against a torque light petrol car with a LSD!
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| Martin |
It's the 140ps version. I'm sure you some engines are better than others, but the VAG 2.0TDI seems to be regularly more powerful than stated. There are a few graphs on the Internet showing 150-160hp from a standard engine.
The 170hp engine is a bit more 'peaky' than the 140, so may not be a great deal quicker anyway. |
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| "him" |
It was the same with old 1.9 PD units, a friend of mine had a 130BHP version which wanted chipped, when they tested it as standard (for the 'before' figures), it was pulling 150BHP anyway. I don't remember how much he said it made afterwards, but it certainly made more soot after it was tuned!
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| Martin |
Mine is un-tuned but still gives out plenty of soot!!
Mind you, probably best to leave it standard as 'chipping' seems to slow the cars down!! |
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| PR |
This has been a great disappointment to me with the 320d - no great clouds of soot! Barely a grain, in fact. | ||||||
| Apex clipper |
If I wasn't at this point trying to accelerate up a slight incline ( read: North face of the Eigar)
It's barely registering! About 800rpm!! |
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| SpecB |
OK, did the 30-60 through 2nd and 3rd and it did it in 4s dead. Doing it in 3rd alone added a second. If it could actually get to 60 in 2nd then it would be even quicker. I'm quite impressed with that TBH. |
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| "him" |
Those are good times for what is quite a heavy car, the change into 3rd would have cost you some time... I will get the figures added to the table soon! |
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| SpecB |
Well it's heavy compared to your Saxo! It's about 1550kg which I don't think is too bad for the size of car with AWD. I am betting that if it could do 60 in 2nd then another half a second could be shaved off.
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| Boxer6 |
I thought I'd seen the given weight of mine as 2250kg all up. Must go and check...... |
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| SpecB |
That might be the gross vehicle weight which is the maximum fully loaded.
Edit: Kerb weight of the new ones are 1560 (which is near enough what I thought) for the manual, 1570 for the auto and maximum weight 2050. |
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| Boxer6 |
Yep - just found that myself!! |
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| . |
And go even slower, not a chance while its going as quick as it is, which for a 1.8 Diesel, isn't bad. More so when your engine is modern and mine is based on quite an old design now. As I said, perhaps this Leon doesn't have one of these more potent VAG 2.0TDI you talk of, coz it really is a dissapointment on all fronts. |
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| Martin |
Are you sure it's a 2.0TDI not a 1.9TDI? The 2.0TDI isn't the most refined diesel you can buy but it makes the 1.9 sound like a tractor. | ||||||
| . |
Driven both and can tell the difference. Not that stooooooooooopid. | ||||||
| Martin |
Must.......not.......respond.......
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| PR |
Never mind, Martin. I took Mike out in the 130i last week and even he conceded that it was 'quite good' or something like that!
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| Martin |
I've just been looking through the videos and there has been some rounding on some of the the times and a little cheating. I thought the rules were to hold it at 30 rather than let the speed drop a little and thus remove any lag from the equation? If not, I'm going to figure the Passat again and drop a few tenths!!
It's a bit sad, but according to the timing device I used, Frank Bullitt and Him have been rounding the times up, Mike and GZ have been rounding down, Dradus and Kraft are spot on. FB's time in 4th is 8.6 and Mikes in 4th is 9.6, so not quicker than a 325i after all!! By my calculations, Him's time in 3rd is 5.0 sec so gets moved a couple of places up. The D5 is still very (surprisingly) quick, but 12th may be relieved to know that it's not quite as quick as his RS4! I get 5.9 in 4th and 4.7 in 3rd. The answer is yes....I'm bored! |
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| "him" |
I always "err" on the side of caution for my own times, but am prepared to give the benefit of the doubt for others... I only allowed myself a time to the nearest 1/2 a second and rounded up, anything less using the equipment I was using is stretching credibility... 
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| Martin |
I was using official timing by Nokia!!!
I might time the Passat again from about 25 and only start the clock at 30, because that rule was just put in to handicap the TDI boys!!! |
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| "him" |
Handicap the TDI boys...? If we timed from 25mph you would still have the turbo lag to take into account... But if we are talking a "run at it", why not start at 10mph, and (I don't know) stop at 100mph?
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| Martin |
It takes a fraction of a second between pressing the throttle and getting maximum push in every diesel I've driven, (non turbo?) petrol engined cars obviously don't have that.
I don't mind the run to 100, providing it's done in the same gear, it's the starting from 20 I don't fancy!! 50-100 in 5th would be fine, but I would prefer 40-80/90 in 4th! |
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| Apex clipper |
AHHHH!
It now becomes obviously clear that I should head the 5th gear table. Rounding up..rounding down..willy waving...??
Tis just a bit of fun. *I'd need to drop well below 30mph and a couple of gears to get anywhere near the top of the 5th gear chart. 
I was honest and angelic in my timing...do I win owt? A pork pie? |
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| Apex clipper |
Now we've just proposing what we think (Or know) is the sweet spot for our respective chariots. *Thinks... **Discounts anything involving 5th gear and low revs.** 30- a ton in 3rd?? Wasn't everyone..holding the gear at bang on 30 the hitting the back of the accelerator into the shagpile?? If you weren't.. 
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| TimR |
I held the car at 30 and started the timing when I pressed the throttle.
I reckon that costs a few tenths compared with taking a run at it, especially for the turbo cars. |
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| "him" |
By the way Tim, does the M5 pick up quickly compared to the Fiat? |
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| TimR |
Er.
If you mean does it respond quicker to the throttle then yes as there's no turbo lag*. It pulls hard from about 1500rpm but it doesn't really get into it's stride until you're past 3k revs. I actually forgot to engage Sport mode when I did the acceleration runs. It doesn't give you more power or anything but sharpens the throttle response and adds steering weight. *Considering the Fiat came out about 12 years ago it's surprisingly un-laggy. |
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| . |
Him, noticed a minor error with two of your graphs...which might upset someone!
The 3rd gear timings...i'm still below some people whom I faster than! Holy unfair. But worse, you have labelled a certain BMW 325ti Sport Compact in Brown (For Diesel) and my own car in blue...
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| PR |
Yours is below mine because, well, 'tis the natural order of things! I must object to being given a dieselly brown line though.
Unfortunately I didn't get round to figuring the 320d because I had to give it back sooner than expected. Mine feels faster but it's difficult to say. Maybe it just sounds faster! |
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| Guitar Zero |
I don't have a stop watch - I used the time code on the video which is only in whole seconds - although I did say it was four and a bit rather than 4 seconds dead.
Quibbling over accuracy in this thread is a daft for 2 reasons : 1) Without a Racelogic V-Box GPS unit, confirming the exact speed and time taken to accelerate between speeds is impossible. 2) Not everyone has posted a video - so a few timings have the potential to be even more inaccurate than those based on video footage. If you want to make this as meaningful as possible - then only video submissions should be accepted and the timing based on video footage should be carried out by a single adjudicator. |
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| Jasper |
Am I too late to join the fun? | ||||||
| TimR |
Nah get stuck in.
I was going to figure my courtesy car today but I got bored waiting for it
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| "him" |
Of course not...
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| Jasper |
Laddies and Gentlemen. I give you.........Volkswagen Transporter Sportline
Third gear and my reckoning 7 secs. Not bad for a van with about a second and a half of turbo lag. |
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| "him" |
That is good going... which engine does it have (no sound here in the office!) | ||||||
| Jasper |
174bhp and 295 lb/ft of torque. It's very addictive the massive wave for torque shoving you forward. | ||||||
| Boxer6 |
Is that the same van you had on Sunday, Jasper? Excellent time, whatever engine is in it!! | ||||||
| Jasper |
Yeah it was, just sorry I never had time to give you guys a spin in it. | ||||||
| Apex clipper |
Excellent!
What figures are we doing in 2009 then? The first one to mention 5th get's a poke in the eye.
What about dithering along in 3rd at say..20mph..then seeing what the sandtimer murmers..at say a ton? Or 90..or even 50? 2nd gear....10> 50? 4th gear.. 40>110? All power runs achieved on 'hims' exclusive test~track |
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| Martin |
I got some times from the MINI last night on a fairly quiet stretch of dual carriageway. A 50 lepton limit, but it was fine......
Fairly surprised by some of the times, but it is lower geared than the 130 (and miles lower than the Passat!). I tried every gear a second time on the way back, but tried in 3 time in 3rd gear because it didn't seem right. (but it was). I don't know how long the over boost works for, that would be interesting to know. It certainly doesn't have any turbo lag, in sport mode it picks up instantly as soon as you touch the throttle. It does support my thoughts about it being pretty much as quick as the 130 at low revs / low speeds, but if it was a 80/90+ test then a 130 would give it a sound thrashing. It's done just over 3,000 miles and all the reports suggest they get faster as the miles go on, so I need to crack on!! Anyway, the average times for the MINI Clubman Cooper S are as follows: 3rd - 4.0 secs 4th - 6.3 secs 5th - 8.6 secs 6th - 10.0 secs |
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| "him" |
Good times Martin, I will get these times (and the others above) on the table tonight... (and correct the blue/brown lines!) | ||||||
| . |
Oh I know - 50 - 100 in 5th Gear!
Good figues Martin, whats the power/torque and vehicle weight? Didn't realise they would be that nippy! |
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| Martin |
30-100 in 5th would be even more challenging!! Power is 175hp and Torque is 192 lb-ft. Peak torque is from 1700 to 4500rpm, so acceleration is very linear which you can see from the numbers. That makes is feel a little slower than it actually is. It weighs 1200kg, which is about 250kg less than the 130. So hp/tonne is well down (20%), but the torque to weight ratio is the same. The gearing is also shorter in the MINI, which obviously helps in this test. Having said all that, the general consensus is that the Cooper S has a bit more power than stated. Evo put their last Cooper S on the Dyno and it had 205hp and David Vivian thought his Clubman S would have close to 200hp. I've just bought the latest evo and the Cooper S they have tested against the 500 SS is much punchier than you'd think (0-100 in 16.6 and 30-70 in 5.7). It has a kerb weight of 1185kg I think, so not much less than the Clubman. |
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| "him" |
30-100 is no problem... 20-100 in 5th?
I reckon a "roll on from" 10-100 through the gears would be interesting too, (to save any stress on the clutch/transmission) I have updated the tables and times on the front page of the thread, please keep the times coming! |
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| Jasper |
For the first time I've heard the sound the engine makes on the video. Told you it sounds like EMCW. I'm gonna do the Golf the next chance I get, just to find out how slow it is. I don't know if it will do too badly, there;s no torque but I goes ok with a firm caning. |
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| GonnaBreakABuggy |
Ah bugger that, launch the fuckers from a standstill to 100.
*Pats Kevlar clutch plate*
*Wonders if it'll get to 100...*
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| Jasper |
Yeah. If I can use Pats clutch I'll do it from a stand still too. | ||||||
| SpecB |
I've yet to do a proper full bore start in mine in 30k miles. Planting right foot and simply dumping clutch seems so wrong mechanically despite Subaru limiting revs to 5k with the clutch down. | ||||||
| GonnaBreakABuggy |
I can't just dump the clutch, I haven't got enough ponies!
4k slip for me
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| TimR |
I tried something like it in the BM - not full throttle but enough - but with the traction control switched off (the day before new tyres were being fitted anyway). Didn't seem all that quick but the haze of tyre smoke and black lines (I went back and had a look) were mighty impressive
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| GonnaBreakABuggy |
It's quicker if you're only just slipping the wheels rather than a full-bore burnout.
But not as much fun. |
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| TimR |
Yup
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| Dr. Hfuhruhurr |
Finally had a go at this yesterday, but I think I'll need a camera and stopwatch to time it properly. Suffice to say 27 - 64 mph in third takes about three seconds, and fourth is about the same. | ||||||
| Blarno |
I thought I was in 3rd, turns out I was in 4th. |
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| . |
I did a 50-100mph run, in 5th Gear this morning. On "him"'s private test track.
Its a smouldering time that I think people will really sturggle to beat, especially the likes of Nick and Tweflth in their tarted up Beetles and Audi S-Lines (Respectively). So, the time, a mind blowing earth shattering and universe warping time of: 20.36secs. And a big black cloud of soot to boot. It needs a service (Genuinely is does) plus 5th is a very tall gear. If I dropped to Fourth and hoofed it I reckon it would see it in about 16/17secs. |