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Alf McQueef

Mostly in the last few days I have been looking at....

.... things like this:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201312050357516/

and this:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201312290722415/

and this (there seem a lot more 650 than 550 out there):

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201312100441324

Discuss!
PG

Lot's to discuss there and lot's to like.

If you can decide to run either of the Jag's then go for it. Apart from the 4.2 v 5.0 S/C engine, I think you'll prefer the seats in the XFR to the SV8, which has the older less "sporty" seats.  Although for you doing quite a lot of business miles, I suspect that the fuel economy on the BMW would be considerably better then the XFR or SV8. The BMW looks about on a par with my NA 5.0 V8 XF.

But as you are a "hand" the e-diff etc on the XFR would be essential stuff. If that helps the man maths.  
Nice Guy Eddie

Good choices, I've been looking at big engine anything at the moment.

The XFR is one sexy beast and sits alongside the C63 and ISF in the want one stakes.
Andy C

Love the xfr. Don't like the BMW though.

What about a c63 ?
Frank Bullitt

Do you think you've been lucky (fortunate perhaps) that the BMW has been ideal for the mileage you do and this is tempting you into something that mentally costs 'a bit' more yet, in reality, will cost substantially more on the mileage you do especially with a set of rear tyres every 10k, brake pads and so on - I think if you replaced the BMW with any of it's modern peers you won't be as fortunate and anything like either of these you could be substantially worse off.

Can you get a mountain bike in either?!
Martin

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Do you think you've been lucky (fortunate perhaps) that the BMW has been ideal for the mileage you do and this is tempting you into something that mentally costs 'a bit' more yet, in reality, will cost substantially more on the mileage you do especially with a set of rear tyres every 10k, brake pads and so on - I think if you replaced the BMW with any of it's modern peers you won't be as fortunate and anything like either of these you could be substantially worse off.


You're probably spot on, but man maths should sort all that out!

The XFR looks nice (love the colour combo), but that must be close to the cost of a facelift car?  I like the 650i too.

A C63 is more expensive, you're looking at £25k for a 2008 car with average miles.  I'm not sure I could spend that amount on a 5-6 year old car with an interior that wasn't really good enough for a C220.
JohnC

A father of a girl in my daughter's class has a 650i very similar to that one. He tells me that he doesn't mind the poor consumption (about 15mpg) because he only does shortish journeys and low miles (he's a pilot). 25mpg is about as good as he gets but he just loves it and the feeling it gives him every time he drives it.

The gearboxes are the weak point in these and they should have the oil changed pre 50,000 (about £400 to £500 because it needs a new sump on the box). If not, they don't tend to last much beyond about 80/90K.

I have to admit that I don't know a great deal about the Jags.
Alf McQueef

I appreciate the concerns on the man-maths. I reckon something like this would cost £250+ per month more than my current car on fuel/servicing/consumables/tax and that's IF nothing goes wrong and assuming no worse depreciation.

Bikes in the car is no concern now as on the rare occasions I drive a bike anywhere I have full Thule racks for both cars and for family rides we take hers anyway. 99% of my rides are from home.

How I came to this lot was appreciating I am not going to get as good a deal this time - I simply won't find a 3 year old, low mileage 3 series to my liking for well under £20k.Private lease rates on something like a 335i Touring for 25k miles pa are way too high, nearly my mortgage payments! That makes me look more to high-depreciation bargains.

Also, I can stomach higher running costs. I've been a bit cautious in the last few years after the double redundancy in 2007/8 but much as I am bored of my current job it does seem pretty safe and earnings are steady and decent. Saving loads of capital can be a challenge but higher running costs I can handle - if its worth it.

C63 and ISF I have always been interested in (the M3 I'm not so sure about for long journeys) but they are not depreciating nearly as fast as they might have. So if I cast the net further - being careful not to pick something that just has a big engine and no other virtues - the XF appeals as it was always said to have such a peachy ride/handling balance.  Autocar absolutely raved about the SV8 and XFR, and the cabin looks a nice place to spend a lot of time. I was looking at those XFS V8's for around £14k then saw the XFR's for much less of a premium than I expected.

The XFR has a massive "want" factor with me but I worry about an AMG/M style parts premium, and the image is not great with the sort of gritty customers I have, it;s also too much money for me really (though great value). The SV8 is a proper Q car and for £14k or so running costs are offset a bit by less outlay.

The 650 and 550 appeal less but the 650 in particular seems commonly available at very low miles - which appeals as I will add a fair few and don't want to make it unsaleable.

Yes I do a fair few miles but a bit less now - at say 20k business miles and sub 5k private, the business miles average out at 35p per mile so I'll not lose money on fuel even with this sort of beast, not on long trips.

Of course I'd be worried. I like a progression in things and will this sort of car makes it impossible to follow. And will it cost so much that it puts me (and She that Must Approve) off all such things for ever?

It comes down to :

1) Something like a 328 Touring (will I hate myself every time I start the engine or experience turbo lag?).
2) Keep the current car another couple of years and get a VX220 play car for trackdays (but how often will that be used?)
3) Something of the XF SV8 ilk.

I suppose other things to look at would be S5's and current shape 535's as well, since I'm considering things a bit bigger, and the current 5 has been out for longer so is available cheaper.
PG

Alf McQueef wrote:
The XFR has a massive "want" factor with me but I worry about an AMG/M style parts premium, and the image is not great with the sort of gritty customers I have, it;s also too much money for me really (though great value). The SV8 is a proper Q car and for £14k or so running costs are offset a bit by less outlay.


SV8's are very under the radar Q-car wise and are amazing value.
gonnabuildabuggy

Option B is probably your best bet, although I think an E60 of some kind is probably the safest other option as BMW engines do seem to be more economical in the real world than their competitors.
Alf McQueef

PG wrote:
Alf McQueef wrote:
The XFR has a massive "want" factor with me but I worry about an AMG/M style parts premium, and the image is not great with the sort of gritty customers I have, it;s also too much money for me really (though great value). The SV8 is a proper Q car and for £14k or so running costs are offset a bit by less outlay.


SV8's are very under the radar Q-car wise and are amazing value.


The newer 5.0 NA engine (like yours) appeals in some sort of "sport" spec as I don't really need forced induction on something that big, but XFR's seemed to have minimal premium over NA when I looked, and the SV8's were much cheaper.

I think the newer Jag 5 litre NA engine, like the BMW 4.8 and the ISF's motor - have the best chance of a respectable motorway MPG, didn't Chip Butty get a decent average in his XJ when trying? 25+MPG at an indicated 75 would be respectable enough. I suspect the XFR may struggle with that... Evo regularly managed around 25 from their ISF and their driving will be nothing like the bulk of mine, which is pretty optimal for economy.

But then if the SV8's outlay is half as much as the XFR that works too.

This 5-litre is a little less than XFR's and has a nice interior for a non-R:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201309188846651/

And this is low mileage but asking as much as similar age XFR:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201311240117090/

Edited to add: looking at sizes (widths being my worry) according to Parkers the XF is 2cm wider and 5cm narrower than current 5 series. So no worries there.
Bob Sacamano

Given the miles you do I think it's madness to be considering a 5.0L petrol, especially a Jag. Man maths will talk you into justifying it along the lines of overly optimistic motorway miles mpg but I'd wager in real life you'll be best friends with the local filling station and the running costs will be horrific.
Big Blue

Yep, when I was running J-L to Basing-grad once or twice a week I was still in the 25-27mpg range (of V-Power). It looks great averaging 31-33 but first 250m of traffic jam and you're back to the teens and your average is plummeting.

Get a 3-litre max (OK, 3.3 )
Parm

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Given the miles you do I think it's madness to be considering a 5.0L petrol, especially a Jag. Man maths will talk you into justifying it along the lines of overly optimistic motorway miles mpg but I'd wager in real life you'll be best friends with the local filling station and the running costs will be horrific.


+1 - particularly if you want to make the "most" of /enjoy  the capacious power plant.
Alf McQueef

LA LA LA I'm not listening    

I can't really lose on fuel at an average of 35p per mile. From looking at Evo long term tests they got 27.8 mpg driving the V8S to the 'ring and 22 in the XFR a few weeks later.

I had a look at XF V6 diesel prices as well and while they are decent value and there are heaps of them out there, they are no cheaper than the V8 petrols. In fact one is at a garage one mile from here so I'll take a peek tomorrow to see how I like the car in the flesh.

It may be difficult to understand but most of my mileage is out of rush hour and very saintly, the remainder is hooning, even wafting I appreciate a good engine and for hooning it's a huge difference.
Martin

Perfect man maths at work ALF!  

The comparison isn't really against the 35p you're getting unless it's increased to that level because you're running something with a bigger engine. The comparison is between the low 20s of an XF compared to what you get now and other options on your shortlist.  

I don't think getting a diesel is the right option for you, you're already used to lower level of MPG of a decent size petrol and not used to the sonic qualities of a diesel!

Mind you, you did get a four pot petrol Audi followed by an automatic BMW, so anything is possible!  
PG

Alf McQueef wrote:
The newer 5.0 NA engine (like yours) appeals in some sort of "sport" spec....

This 5-litre is a little less than XFR's and has a nice interior for a non-R:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201309188846651/

And this is low mileage but asking as much as similar age XFR:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201311240117090/



That first black one has the later V8S sports seats interior, as mine does. The seats are the same as in an XFR, but without the R embossed logo. Having sat in both seats - the standard ones and the sport ones, the sports are way better for me. Xenons are much better if you can find them. hey are standard on Portfolio and XFr and rare as hens teeth on anything else pre latest facelift, when they became standard across the range.

On fuel consumption, on the OBC I've had between 23 and 27 over the past 9 months of ownership. This is mostly motorway, including the snarled up M6 and some town work. So I'm pretty pleased with that.

When I test drove XFR's I never managed more than 22 and got 19 on one test. So the NA engine is materially more economical.

If you really wanted to, you could put an lpg conversion on the NA V8 (tank in the spare wheel well) and just keep the space saver spare in the boot. According to various things I've read the supercharged engines are not easy to convert to lpg.
Bob Sacamano

It'll cost 30p a mile in petrol alone, leaving you 5p a mile to buy, run and insure it.... OK....
Andy C

Martin wrote:
A C63 is more expensive, you're looking at £25k for a 2008 car with average miles.  I'm not sure I could spend that amount on a 5-6 year old car with an interior that wasn't really good enough for a C220.


Dear o dear .  Would  the pace, noise etc would not make up for it !!??

One gunned passed me the other day in Leicester . My god what a noise .
Alf McQueef

Bob Sacamano wrote:
It'll cost 30p a mile in petrol alone, leaving you 5p a mile to buy, run and insure it.... OK....


The fuel allowance is separate from the car allowance. And the salary... I must have spent £5k on mountain bikes and parts/clothing in 2012. There is scope for higher running costs... That was largely done through boredom...
Martin

Andy C wrote:
Martin wrote:
A C63 is more expensive, you're looking at £25k for a 2008 car with average miles.  I'm not sure I could spend that amount on a 5-6 year old car with an interior that wasn't really good enough for a C220.


Dear o dear .  Would  the pace, noise etc would not make up for it !!??

One gunned passed me the other day in Leicester . My god what a noise .


I don't think so no, although I do agree that they sound fabulous and I know they're a great car, but they're too expensive.  It's not the only way to get speed and noise at that price. In between short bursts of acceleration and when you're wafting up the motorway, you're stuck in that interior.  

ALF spends a lot of time tootling up the motorway at 70mph and that might be 65mph in order to get the mpg he's expecting!
Martin

Alf McQueef wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
It'll cost 30p a mile in petrol alone, leaving you 5p a mile to buy, run and insure it.... OK....


The fuel allowance is separate from the car allowance. And the salary....


I'd guessed that, but you're still comparing the wrong figures!
gonnabuildabuggy

I' running on Petrol rather than LPG at the moment (it looks like an injector is playing up) and the increase in cost is very scary.

I'd be very cautious on your miles, a second car would be far more cost effective.
Alf McQueef

I picked a good time to discuss with Mrs ALF the prospect of an imminent change - she did volunteer over Christmas that N47 engine failures have put her off a SH X1 sufficiently she would rather I change my car before we look to hers.

She is not happy with the idea of a second car and I don't think I'd use it much - she wants to do trackdays again herself in a few years, I think we'll give that until Lu is at secondary school (4 years). It will happen some time.

She has given carte blanche to a £600 per month lease of a new car if it is something she considers sensible (a 335 is in but nothing more crazy) or up to  £18k ish on a SH one. I could probably stretch that to 20k.

It is massively pissing me off that pretty much every lease comparison site I find has options for 10 or 12k miles only and wants me to phone or mail them for anything else! How difficult can it be!

Even if I could get a new 335 on 25k miles for £500 ish plus VAT a month I still don't think it's great value - with a few grand up front that's basically £25k over 3 years and nothing owned at the end of it. You can buy a 335i M Sport auto saloon for £33k and I'm willing to bet you'd sell it at 3 years for rather more than £10k even with 75k miles on it!!! £10k is more like its 6 year value not 3 year.
Chip Butty

The XJ was a diesel - so I got great mpg.

I did have two nat asp 5.0 V8 XFs though and they averaged 21-22 mpg. Whereas my XKR average 19.9 mpg.

High spots were 30 mpg from the XF (motorway at 70 mph) and 24.5 mpg (average over a 1500 mile euro road trip). XKR did 26.6 mpg on a drive back from Newcastle once (av speed just over 70 mph).

If you do man maths, be prudent - assuming lots of motorway miles, work out the nat asp as 22 mpg and the XFR at 20 mpg and you won't go far wrong.

Downside to the nat asp is the touring suspension - it's not as good as the adaptive set up in the diesel S or the XFR.

Bork factor on an XFR isn't much different to a nat asp. There is the electrically controlled LSD, adaptive shocks and not much else - base engine is the same, superchargers don't really break and both use the 6 speed ZF gearbox.

I'd go for an XFR.
Alf McQueef

Cheers Mr Butty, I was hoping you would find this thread - I have never lurked much on Jag forums so don't know much about them other than that I have always liked XF's but thought they were bigger than they are!

Is there anything major to worry about on an XF? Do Jaguar do a decent aftermarket warranty? Superchargers worry me on the SV8 but it sounds like you don't feel that's an issue.

Looking back at the Evo long term tests of the SV8 and XFR the parts and servicing don't seem that scary - I know not much is done in early services but some marques (like Audi) seem to know how to charge for them, and for basics like brake parts. That makes me worry about longer term, higher mileage servicing.
PG

Chip Butty wrote:
I'd go for an XFR.


I feel another bout of man maths coming on in my office one dark evening.......
Alf McQueef

Left field:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201307257995280/

I have to say overall purely on a man-maths internet exercise I like these two the most so far. The second is my fave and not much more money for 2.5 years younger but is probably approaching current-shape 328/335 territory and not exactly a throwaway amount:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201311049679212/

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201309188846651/
Chip Butty

There are currently 10 XF 5.0 V8s on the Jag approved website. For the same price (or a bit less) than a late 2009 XFR from an independent, you should be able to pick up a warranted approved used 5.0 nat asp (late 2010, early 2011). Warranty is extendable.

The 5.0 to go for is the V8 S (it's a model introduced when diesel engine supply was restricted), so it's a diesel S minus the adaptive suspension and the wood burning stove. Earlier 5.0 models are portfolios with wood, standard seats and in Werther's original colour schemes.

The V8 S is based on premium luxury specification - so you want to check the B&W stereo and reversing camera options were ticked. Also - pre 12MY PLs have soft grain leather dash tops and door top rolls - 12MY PLs have leatherette and you need to go Portfolio at 12MY for full leather. However all portfolios have the alcantara headliner (which is the tits). All XFR irrespective of model year are full softgrain leather and alcantara headliner.

Superchargers are very robust and nothing like turbos for going bang. The 4.2 V8 is indirect injection, the 5.0 cars are direct injection and have a high pressure fuel pump, fancy injectors, etc.

I would say the XFR is the least likely to break expensively when compared with the equivalent German stuff. If it does break, standard XFR parts don't appear to be as pricey and BMW M or AMG parts. However - if I am spending £20k plus on a 500 bhp saloon, I would want some kind of warranty, at least for the first 6 months or so.
PG

Chip Butty wrote:
The 5.0 to go for is the V8 S (it's a model introduced when diesel engine supply was restricted), so it's a diesel S minus the adaptive suspension and the wood burning stove. ....


I'd agree with that. Well I would, as mine's a V8 S Premium Luxury with the B&W and the reversing camera options ticked, on an 11 plate. In black with black leather.  

It'll be at Prescott. Or if you're ever up Birmingham way, let me know.

The black V8 S you've linked to says it has the DAB radio and iPod interface fitted, which is good. Definitely check if the B&W stereo is in there. The B&W is utterly kick-ass. I've never had in car hi-fi before and am now a total convert. DAB radio is CD quality. If the iPod interface is not fitted, you can't retro-fit it (according to three dealers I talked to). You can link via the AUX in plug, but that does not give you any iPod control from the steering wheel, show your tracks on the screen, charge it etc and the quality is not as good.
Chip Butty

Mine was a late 2010 car on a 60 plate (OE60 CEX) - black on black with the B&W and parking pack. I never found it on the Jag approved website, so I assume it was defleeted via another channel.
Alf McQueef

Right, this is where I am with this...

I would really like something as young and low mileage as possible (I'm going to stick 75k on it in 3 years after all) but the costs then become high - £20k is not an inconsiderable amount of money. Of the XF's I really like the V8 S 5.0's  but I'm surprised they have not dropped considerably more than the XFR's - indeed the XFR seems to have depreciated worse! I'd absolutely love an XFR but the running costs are just too high. Maybe one day... Also where do you go after a car like that? If I get "used" to 500bhp I'll never be content again.

I like E500's and - unlike most of the XF SV8 interior pics at half the mileage - the interiors even on 100k examples seem absolutely like new. The E500 is smaller and more efficient than the XF V8's.

I then looked into resale for mine and it looks like the trade-in is bloody awful, the "webuyanycar" price is £5500. That would make the depreciation on mine £300 a month, add in £50 for a warranty and £50 for additional running costs over a new car and my current car and anything I'd be considering as a replacement is costing me £400 a month. And if I get a V8 I can probably add £100 to that in additional fuel costs.

At which realisation I thought sod it, I'll lease a new car - I could nearly man-maths say £600 a month as "not being much more than a SH one is costing me" but actually a 335i or S5 is more like £650 a month over 2 or 3 years and that's with 6 months up front and only for 20k miles. 435i's are much more. In 3 years that's costing me far more than the whole purchase cost of say a £22k XF V8 S and a lot more than say a £17,500 E500. I don't really place any personal vlaue on a new car either, it means nothing to me compared to a SH car in excellent condition, I would not option it up as you pay the whole option cost on the lease anyway. And though I do worry about trying to shift a Jag V8 with over 100k on it in 3 years, whatever I buy will be worth something at the end. The lease is just money down the drain. Lots of it.

So I am kind of back to looking to buy something 3-5 years old - looking at XF V8 S's, E500's, S5's and so on. Of course the sensilbe option would be to keep what I have as it's running well and can't depreciate in the same way for much longer. But I am intensely bored of my job and driving around so much in the same car I have done so many miles in in the last 3 years, a different interior, some FG, and a nutty engine would not go amiss. I think I'll look at the E500 I linked to above, as it' fairly local...

Of course new 6 pot diesels on a lease are very much cheaper - perhaps I should consider one  
gooner

If you're looking at doing 25k miles per annum, why are you looking at petrol V8s? The diesel engines in the XF and E class are great engines for business driving and will surely save you a packet over 3 years in fuel costs and reduced depreciation. Sure the V8 models are a petrol heads dream on a good road, but on a motorway commute they offer nothing over diesel model except higher fuel bills.

The money you save could help you justify something more interesting for the weekend...
Martin

I don't think I could justify the cost of running a petrol doing 25,000 miles a year, but understand why ALF wants to and it's what his used to paying.  However, upgrading to a V8 from the 330 is likely to add £150+ (£200?) to the monthly fuel bill, which closes the gap to leasing a 335i as they could be just as economical if not better.

I agree about the motorway driving, which means you're taking a financial penalty when you're not really getting any benefit if you do a high proportion of motorway miles.  Having a diesel on the motorway is no hardship, I bet my car is one of the quietest on the forum at motorway speeds and not having to worry about fuel consumption and a 650-700 mile range makes it one of the quickest!

That's a bit tongue in cheek..... I would be more than happy if I could justify the running costs of a decent 6 or even 8 cylinder petrol engine, although filling up more often would annoy me considerably.
Martin

Based on CB's numbers, what you get from the 330i and assuming you use Vmax then the extra fuel cost of running an XFR would be a not inconsiderate £3,000 a year or £9,000 over the 3 years. A total fuel bill of £24,000, more than the cost of the car!  
Michael

Martin wrote:


That's a bit tongue in cheek..... I would be more than happy if I could justify the running costs of a decent 6 or even 8 cylinder petrol engine, although filling up more often would annoy me considerably.


This is massive advantage for diesels. Doing high mileage myself, and living some way from a (sensibly priced) petrol station means fuelling the car needs to be planned. I used to be filling the 325 more than once a week and now it's more like every ten days.
JohnC

In terms of extended warranty costs, BMW are miles cheaper than Audi and Mercedes. I don't know what Jaguar costs.

My Father in law paid nearly double what I pay for mine (I pay £437), from Mercedes and I have heard of up to £1,500 a year from Audi.

Just another thing to consider.
Alf McQueef

I was in a last- shape 520d for a 400 mile day recently. I hated it every time we accelerated and disliked it at cruise.

I would just about consider an XF V6 D S as they apparently have very good refinement but I suspect I would dislike driving it, it's just the feel of diesel motors, the pause-ratty rush-pause.

Depressingly enough I think I'll stay with what I have - no option is exciting me much...
JohnC

Would you consider fugly?

http://www.approved.bmw.co.uk/bmw...TI4NDQ=&btp=1x24-distance_ASC|list
JohnC

Alf McQueef wrote:
I was in a last- shape 520d for a 400 mile day recently. I hated it every time we accelerated and disliked it at cruise.

I would just about consider an XF V6 D S as they apparently have very good refinement but I suspect I would dislike driving it, it's just the feel of diesel motors, the pause-ratty rush-pause.

Depressingly enough I think I'll stay with what I have - no option is exciting me much...


Go find a 335D or 535D and have a drive. You might not buy it but I am pretty sure it would give you a different perspective on some diesels.
JohnC

These are great value. A 335i engine, lower road tax low miles and nearly 40% off.

http://www.approved.bmw.co.uk/bmw...TMxNTY=&btp=1x24-distance_ASC|list

You can finance this one over 4 years on 25K a year with your old car as deposit, £390/mth and put the other £200/mth away to let you buy it with change left at the end of the period, or hand it back and use the £10K as a deposit.
Martin

When did I suggest you get a 520d?  

John - why have you selected the old man colour filter on your search?  
JohnC

Martin wrote:
When did I suggest you get a 520d?  

John - why have you selected the old man colour filter on your search?  


I just picked the cheapest. There are plenty more colours in store Sir!
Alf McQueef

No one suggested a 520d but no one seems to get the fact I don't want a diesel either, it's not as if I've never been in one.

6 pot diesels I have less experience of, except to say they still sound much like the others at start up.

A second car is totally pointless as I do so few personal miles, it would just be a pointless money pit unless it was something good on track and I had time and signoffs for regular track days, but I don't.

I if seem terse it's because I am - I'm sick of allegedly being well into the top 5% of earners but not feeling like it. I've been in this house 12 years and own more than 60% of it but can't get enough of a mortgage to move to something usefully bigger/better because of the commission element of my pay and I'm just wondering why I bother.

Probably a midlife crisis since I'm 40 soon!
JohnC

Alf McQueef wrote:

I if seem terse it's because I am - I'm sick of allegedly being well into the top 5% of earners but not feeling like it. I've been in this house 12 years and own more than 60% of it but can't get enough of a mortgage to move to something usefully bigger/better because of the commission element of my pay and I'm just wondering why I bother.

Probably a midlife crisis since I'm 40 soon!


I know how you feel. I think you need to be in the top 1% of earners to feel remotely well off these days - and some ill informed Politicians want to tax the "middle" even more. I don't know about you but there isn't a great deal of slack left.

Being self employed is similar to being on commission - you don't tick the necessary boxes so it's a no. Short sighted madness.
Alf McQueef

JohnC wrote:

I know how you feel. I think you need to be in the top 1% of earners to feel remotely well off these days - and some ill informed Politicians want to tax the "middle" even more. I don't know about you but there isn't a great deal of slack left.

Being self employed is similar to being on commission - you don't tick the necessary boxes so it's a no. Short sighted madness.


You said something on another thread about your house not going up in value much - I seem to have that issue too, relative to other houses around here anyway. We always come away from looking at potential houses very depressed as a decent step up seems about twice what ours is worth!

The power of the inheritance has been very clear in recent years as well - plenty of local friends on far less than us have suddenly moved into massive houses or had big extensions and changed both their cars, yet we have been very sensible wth money with little to show for it. We don't drink, we rarely go out, we have not been abroad since Lu was born 8 years ago. Our chance of an inheritance is currently being eaten at a vast rate by a care home so we need to stay pretty sensible !
JohnC

My wife came from an interior design background so every house we get goes through a transformation - she is very good at seeing what a house needs and designing it. This house has just taken a bit longer to do for a whole variety of reasons but we have just taken advantage of a near 2 year interest free credit card to finance a new kitchen which Susan promises me will add value.
This is January so I live in the office doing Tax Returns but I am told it should largely be completed by the time January is finished and I won't have to do anything - we'll see.
Is there anything you could do to increase the house's value with a new bathroom, kitchen, decor? My M in L is seriously anal about her house with cream carpets etc but I have to admit she does an amazing job making it look fantastic. They sold 18 months ago and got £50K more for their house than anyone had ever got for a similar house in the area. It was in walk in condition with big mirrors and really tasteful, rich looking decor - lots of people say they don't mind doing work on a house but a perfect house often changes their mind.
Alf McQueef

Ours has had new everything and is mint - I'm basing the valuation on what the identical one next door went for 4 and 2 years ago so I suppose ours is probably a bit higher as it is much plusher inside. But our house is a small 4bed house built into a hill so from the front it looks like a bungalow - that's the main issue... There is nothing more we could usefully do to it now...
Martin

I do understand your frustration. I've felt similar for years, partially because the ex Mrs Martin spent money like water!  Things are better now as Lindsay is pretty careful with money and earns a decent salary, but it still doesn't feel like we have enough each month to show for it all.  

It's not helped by The need to pay the cost of an M5 every month in child maintenance and having to start from scratch with a mortgage which is more than double my old one as a result.  You could argue that they're both self inflicted costs and you'd have a point, but that's OK as you can't put a price on happiness!

On the positive side we have a nice house that we'll never have to change unless a job move forces us to and we can afford to book some nice holidays.  I still feel that we should have more to show for all the hard work though!

I never suggested a diesel......  
JohnC

How about:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/class...to_3-9l/body-type/coupe?logcode=p

or this

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/class...series/fuel-type/petrol?logcode=p
Martin

I really like the 335i. Get in quick before I persuade Lindsay that's what she needs!  
Frank Bullitt

It's always dangerous 'pegging' yourself based on others as it's impossible to know what peoples real financial positions are or, indeed, what they have been able to do in the past.

Unless you're a true tightwad you'll always feel there's more that could be saved but depends on what you'd justify to get there - for example, I suspect many people doing 25,000 company miles would have a Mondeo diesel and be laughing all the way to the bank rather than using man-maths to buy a V8; I suspect (s)he would be able to afford a different house/ smoking habit/ few nights in the boozer each week/ expensive holiday/ healthy savings as driving a diesel for those miles is fine - I know plenty of people who would make that choice, but you don't and I can see why but that does cost money you could use elsewhere...

Being frank, I could pay cash for a decent new mid-range large German saloon and still have money for a rainy day...and some people would, or use the savings as a justification for paying £600pcm but that's not me or how I function so at that point I know loads of people will spend money they do or don't have on all sorts so trying to 'peg' myself is impossible. And futile.
Alf McQueef

Keep them coming but no e9x appeals as mine is still cosmetically excellent and drives well. The 335 models have more issues too - I hope the newer shape is more sorted. I just fancy a change of car, interior especially, purely for the sake of change.

I could perhaps just get a loan and buy a nearly new 335i M Sport saloon or touring if I see one well below the 33k you can buy one new from Broadspeed for. I'd probably keep it to 6 years so it would probably work out in the long run. If we get a new or nearly new X1 for Mrs ALF we would probably keep that for 6 years too.
gooner

No, that was my fault. I just personally think that running a V8 for 25,000 miles a years is economic madness but I do understand your disliking of diesels. Perhaps a good step up would be to hold on until the F10 535i comes into your budget. They're starting around £25k at the moment although n/a 528i's with 258bhp are closer to £18k.
Alf McQueef

Looking at leases again 600pcm inc vat for 20k miles is the cheapest I have seen for something I fancy - a 3 door S5 - which is quite a bit cheaper than simlar cars or the same one on other sites but still a lot of money... It's still over £25k for 3 years wi the deposit and that's just silly when you can buy a new 335i for 33k... Doing that with a bank loan then keeping it 5or 6 years makes more sense. Agreed or am I talking petrol-fume induced bollox?
JohnC

Alf McQueef wrote:
Looking at leases again 600pcm inc vat for 20k miles is the cheapest I have seen for something I fancy - a 3 door S5 - which is quite a bit cheaper than simlar cars or the same one on other sites but still a lot of money... It's still over £25k for 3 years wi the deposit and that's just silly when you can buy a new 335i for 33k... Doing that with a bank loan then keeping it 5or 6 years makes more sense. Agreed or am I talking petrol-fume induced bollox?


It depends how much you can put down but I would be trying to use the manufacturer finance which is 3.9% at the moment on the 3. The higher mileages result in higher monthly payments on a PCP but reduced final payment and as a consequence much lower overall interest charge. The manufacturers don't subsidise the HP rates unfortunately so the trick is to minimise the final payment to reduce the interest.

If you can put down a decent amount then a bank loan may prove cheaper because you aren't funding the final payment.
Michael

I can sympathise with your situation but as FB says you never know how other peoples finances, or view on finance stacks up. I cannot come to terms with finance for buying a car, but when trotting up depreciation and service expense it probably is cheaper - and yet I still can't get my head around it.

This weeks thinking, and it'll inevitably change, is that buying anything nice is going to end up loosing a load of money when I stick 25k miles a year on it so I might as well keep it and stump up for the inevitable bills. I'm much happier trying to pay down the mortgage so if we can clear that in the next five years it will be much easier to justify spending the surplus on a car.
Nice Guy Eddie

So can we deduce that you should keep the 330i, get a decent mortgage broker and take the family on holiday. A new car is only a short term fix to miserablitis.
Frank Bullitt

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
So can we deduce that you should keep the 330i, get a decent mortgage broker and take the family on holiday. A new car is only a short term fix to miserablitis.


That's the best way to put it...
Mark

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
So can we deduce that you should keep the 330i, get a decent mortgage broker and take the family on holiday. A new car is only a short term fix to miserablitis.


That's the best way to put it...


Indeed. Sounds like you're more fucked off with your life than your car.
gonnabuildabuggy

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
So can we deduce that you should keep the 330i, get a decent mortgage broker and take the family on holiday. A new car is only a short term fix to miserablitis.


I was thinking that earlier today.

Nothing will really be too much of a step change over the 330i and will cost a lot more.

Agree to factor in hiring something nice ocassionally or join a classic car club perhaps.

I like the E500 a lot, and it's better in every way than the E39....but.....other than matching my business image a bit better (i.e. it's newer and doesn't have rust patches) then the E39 did pretty much the same job for £6K less.

Doesn't stop me fancying a 2015 Mustang though......or an XF...or.......

Seriously, wait until there is an obvious replacement or a bargain comes along (just like the 330i) if you really do change.

Act in haste, repent at leisure.
TreVoR

That's good advice. I've actually been getting itchy feet about the Benz, probably down to the amount of miles I am doing at the moment but there is nothing out there that appeals. I would be really wary of anything newer as well. There is a guy on PH just been taken for £2500 because a headlight wasn't working.  

I was chatting to someone about it today and I can't think of anything that would do the job as well for the same money.
Bob Sacamano

I think a new job would bring a lot more happiness than a new car.
gonnabuildabuggy

TreVoR wrote:
I would be really wary of anything newer as well. There is a guy on PH just been taken for £2500 because a headlight wasn't working.  


I've been having similar thoughts. I like the Benz and all it's tech. But......I get the feeling that when the tech fails in years to come it could be very expensive. I already crossed the A8 of my list before due to the complexity of it's electronics. Therefore I can't see me changing in future for "something newer", it would have to be for a good reason, I could actually see me going older again when the time comes to change. I suspect this will be once the kids have left and my needs would have shifted radically.


Bob Sacamano wrote:
I think a new job would bring a lot more happiness than a new car.


Best advice yet.

Two thoughts:

1. New job give you the "something new" you want.
2. If you change job there may well be a different car policy, e.g. company cars so you don't won't to buy something then find you need to sell it.
Alf McQueef

Some sage advice! Interesting to see that there are many sensible souls saving and/or paying down the mortgage, I sometimes get the impressions everyone else just maxes out the loans/mortgage all the time - certainly there are plenty of nice new cars about! I need to chill out and stop fretting about not changing my car at the 3 year point.

I think the fact I just don't feel that excited about changing it, and that the mileage I do makes something I genuinely want an expensive choice, seals the deal for now. Turning the attention back to "her" car probably makes sense, that's what I drive at the weekends and on holidays after all, the difference there to my driving enjoyment would be much greater. Because I am spoiled by mine - it handles well, it has a 272 bhp NA 6-pot, it is good! Changing it for say a 335 just does not make me feel the same as when I got my 309GTi, 156 V6, Caterham, 156GTA, or this car itself. There was always a big step up before, and I was very interested to have my first RWD road car, my first BMW, and so on - I have had it pretty good and improvements in a car that fits my mileage would be smaller.

Still want an XFR - maybe one day  
Frank Bullitt

Alf McQueef wrote:
...I sometimes get the impressions everyone else just maxes out the loans/mortgage all the time - certainly there are plenty of nice new cars about!


It's difficult to say about the people you know specifically, but I suspect that's an impression that doesn't take into account lots of people not doing the same thing. I know a fair few people buy a brand new car every 3 years (usually Ford's or Vauxhalls on PCP's) but loads more who keep what they have.  My friend who is the biggest earner out of all of us (by a mile) drives a seven year old Octavia that's never been washed.

A friend of mine picked up his new BMW 320d last week (Business Edition) which replaced a 2010 E90 320dSE which replaced...a 2007 E90 320dSE; he'd been agonising over whether to just get another or buy a different car; he's the national account manager for an off-shore production company - interestingly, he was saying to Mrs FB (when she was taking the piss out of his originality) that he has a boring job dealing with an uniteresting product so only the thought of getting to each meeting in a nice car fills him with any pleasure, workwise and so the thought of doing something different (IS, A4, C-klasse) filled him with dread as he'd fear regretting making a bad choice.  Now, I know you wouldn't want a 320d but the theory is the same, but to him this is a new model of car and he loves it but he was quite happy with the last one too.

You own a great car, don't lament it - enjoy it.  The value it has now you might as well run it for a few more years.
gonnabuildabuggy

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Alf McQueef wrote:
...I sometimes get the impressions everyone else just maxes out the loans/mortgage all the time - certainly there are plenty of nice new cars about!


It's difficult to say about the people you know specifically, but I suspect that's an impression that doesn't take into account lots of people not doing the same thing. I know a fair few people buy a brand new car every 3 years (usually Ford's or Vauxhalls on PCP's) but loads more who keep what they have.  My friend who is the biggest earner out of all of us (by a mile) drives a seven year old Octavia that's never been washed.


This.

I think people tend to polarise - sensible and paying down mortgages, never had loan or maxed out and looking flash but with no cash.
Bob Sacamano

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:
Alf McQueef wrote:
...I sometimes get the impressions everyone else just maxes out the loans/mortgage all the time - certainly there are plenty of nice new cars about!


It's difficult to say about the people you know specifically, but I suspect that's an impression that doesn't take into account lots of people not doing the same thing. I know a fair few people buy a brand new car every 3 years (usually Ford's or Vauxhalls on PCP's) but loads more who keep what they have.  My friend who is the biggest earner out of all of us (by a mile) drives a seven year old Octavia that's never been washed.


This.

I think people tend to polarise - sensible and paying down mortgages, never had loan or maxed out and looking flash but with no cash.


I certainly wouldn't think to take equity out of the house to buy a car but I'm more than happy to PCP a car for the missus every 2/3 years. She gets a new car and there is basically only one payment every month to think about. Warranty is covered, as is tax and tyres/servicing, at least for the first year, breakdown cover also. No unexpected bills is a bonus and she's driving a better car than you would normally buy if you went the car loan route.
Martin

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:


This.

I think people tend to polarise - sensible and paying down mortgages, never had loan or maxed out and looking flash but with no cash.


There are some of us inbetween!!

I have thought about starting to pay my mortgage down, but it feels like a drop in a very large ocean at the moment, so I'm going to enjoy my life instead!  Life is too short and should be enjoyed.

It won't be based on borrowing, although we'll probably take out a small loan or go down the PCP route when we replace the Swift.  However that's because I want to keep a decent savings pot and am too impatient to wait a couple of years to save up!  The Swift was bought for cash.
PG

Alf McQueef wrote:
Some sage advice!....

....Still want an XFR - maybe one day  


Trying to add to the other sage advice already given and no just repeating it, we all have awful moments / periods of self doubt, self pity or wondering just what the point is. I am afraid to tell you that they won't go away. I still have them now. And this time of year is always the worst time. Apparently the most depressing day of the year is the third Monday in January.

I'm not sure that changing jobs in sales is always the answer. In my view, if you are in sales and hitting your targets (as I think you are), you've got to make sure that a change in job brings a big uplift in base pay and commission. Because you are ramping up your risk. I've seen too many successful sales people think that they can move elsewhere and just replicate their success, only to fail horribly.

Work side, have you thought about trying to get into sales management?That's got to be your real objective for moving your package on. And the best place to start that is you current employer if that opportunity ever arose or can be engineered.

On the car front, it sounds like upgrading Mrs Alf's car would get you the most pleasure for your £. As then when you go on holiday, you'll be enjoying the drive rather than possibly suffering it.

And if you get it all together, then that XFR will arrive one day.
gonnabuildabuggy

Martin wrote:
I have thought about starting to pay my mortgage down, but it feels like a drop in a very large ocean at the moment, so I'm going to enjoy my life instead!  Life is too short and should be enjoyed.


I must admit that I can totally understand how people with huge mortgages decide that any extra payment is a drop in the ocean given the high cost of houses nowadays. The £30K plus a car cost also pails into insignificance in such a comparison.

With interest rates as low as they are the benefit is neglible as well.

I've always been financially prudent (no suprise to anyone there I'm sure) but for me the big spur to get rid of debt is that my kids will require significant funding through uni if they are to enjoy the same debt free outcome I did and the fact I've got 20 yrs working life left approximately. I don't foresee me retiring in 20 yrs but it would be nice to have the option.

I also facet the opposite scenario as well that buying a new house would more than double my existing mortgage and I struggle to get my head around that.

That said, I agree life is for living and we're planning a nice holiday this year, I also do enjoy more/nicer cars than the average man in the street. If I had garage space then I might even manage to justify a 65 Mustang Notchback as well but for the moment that's a bit of a dream until the kids leave home and I'd have time to enjoy it properly.
Alf McQueef

My financial approach until 6 years ago tended to be not to have loans, but to spend what I did have on things I enjoyed - not for the hell of it, but things like bikes and cars and cameras that I actually used a lot. I like nice things, and I seem to derive more pleasure from them than some (genuine pleasure of using them, not for bling).

The combination of fatherhood, being the single earner, Mrs ALF having quite bad anxiety (which is what the non-travelling is about, not money) from around that time, and especially on the financial front the double redundancy in a year that I had 6 years ago, have badly shaken my confidence and altered my habits to be sure. We made loads of savings on outgoings and a few times I have saved up lumps of say £10k then just put them into the mortgage. That was fine but in the last year I have been wondering why I'm doing this and whether I would not be happier spending a bit more on things like cars since my job seems secure and earnings are good but moving seems out of reach.

I seem to derive ever less pleasure from simply buying things, however, which is probably part of growing up and no bad thing! I feel pretty run off my feet these days and crave things like family holidays in nice locations where I can unwind, exercise plenty, see nice views, and relax.

What has got me down recently (and I am low, I recognise that) is having spent most of the last 5 months being (collectively) moaned at at work because we are growing and very profitable but not hitting some pretty bullish targets that were set. I like being home based and I'm not sure I want the extra hassle of managing people at this moment in time - I do enjoy it and do also enjoy being in an office more but right now being home half the time suits me... Unless something very good comes to my attention I'm staying put - I would consider something different in the same company, perhaps on the fitness side...

I also hate winter and when I'm out more on the bike on dry paths and feeling the sun on my skin I am at my happiest, I'm not generally one to get low but when home and work pressures combine over a long time its difficult to always be positive. I got over most of it during the first half of the Christmas break and feel a lot better already, actually...
Frank Bullitt

I can buy into some of that but from a different approach - mrs FB and I had always been savers and for many years couldn't understand how some people who didn't have a pot to piss in we're able to afford 'stuff' as the financial crisis hit it became clear most had prodigious credit and/ or put the lot against the capital in their home and mortgaged to the hilt, sometimes rather scarily so.

I'm some respects I do occasionally think 'what if' we'd jumped into a propery that was less ideal and a real push in spring 2001 rather than autumn 2003 - I would have £50k less on my mortgage or be in a £50k more valuable home but I aren't and that's life - I'm also much better off than many others and am worse off than some. Mrs FB always worked (12 month may leave from employer, some of it unpaid) but tool a pay cut and whilst my salary has increaed since 2009 I'd suggest we were the best part of £1,200pcm worse off when you factor in child care but we did plan for that and accepted 2010-2013 would be the years of little so I'm not always sure if the cost of living or our own decision for having a family means our lifestyle changed but it did and I don't regret it; we have also used some savings to spend on our home (last bit starts shortly), have paid down some of our mortgage etc and are lucky that we enjoy caravan holidays in France so they are cheaper than uk holidays generally - when FB junior is older we'll do more 'expensive' holidays but I've thoroughly enjoyed the memorable ones we've had.

Now mrs FB is back in full time work (but earning less per hour since being made redundant) I reckon our take home is at pre- FB junior levels. I will never be loaded or live in the biggest home in the area or drive the best car but overall we enjoy life; no chance for pure frivolity but we can choose to do some good stuff.  I think paying down the mortgage is A Good Thing but not to the exclusion of all else - only you can decide how to balance that.
Tim

I think Mrs Tim and I are better off than we've ever been but ironically looking to buy a house may be difficult as neither of us has had credit for quite a few years.

When we bought the latest car there were some comments from a few people but we simply asked them where they go on holiday (and how often). It seems like our 530 cost the same as a fortnight somewhere sunny (and nice) for a more mature couple so it turns out our car 'hobby' isn't as expensive as most people think.

Our holidays are generally a week in a self-catering cottage up north and subsequently are relatively cheap.

One couple we know recently inherited about £55k.
That's gone on clearing some credit cards, a 6 month old car a bit of new furniture and a new kitchen.
It makes them (or at least the wife, as it was her inheritance) happy but I would've wanted to clear a chunk off the mortgage.
I pointed out that our 5 cars are worth about 50% of their 1 newer car but will be losing value a lot more slowly.
Martin

FB - We used to enjoy 2 week caravan holiday's in France when the boys were pre-school age and they were a fraction of the cost (£700-800 + spends in the best mobile home!) of going in the school holidays.  Enjoy the cheap holidays while you can, a week in Turkey last summer cost us £4,000!!
gonnabuildabuggy

^^this (Tim's post).

People seem to think cars are expensive yet when bought sensibly, they are usually far cheaper to own/run than a newish car bought or leased.

Like FB I partially regret not buying something bigger when we moved in 1998. However it's meant no sleepless nights when Mrs. GBB hasn't been working and a lower risk in starting my own business, although I know in truth the £10K wouldn't be noticed at all nowadays.

The upside is we've got great neighbours in a nice cul-de-sac and I reckon that's been worth a lot more.

As has been said earlier, I'm not into buying stuff too much, I'd rather spend on time with friends and family.
JohnC

It's got the engine you want and would be mega comfy on a long journey:

http://used.mercedes-benz.co.uk/u...cls63-amg-exeter-for-sale-wg07nvt
JohnC

Or this:

http://used.mercedes-benz.co.uk/u...z-e500-cambridge-for-sale-mv10twx
Mark

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
TreVoR wrote:
I would be really wary of anything newer as well. There is a guy on PH just been taken for £2500 because a headlight wasn't working.  


I've been having similar thoughts. I like the Benz and all it's tech. But......I get the feeling that when the tech fails in years to come it could be very expensive. I already crossed the A8 of my list before due to the complexity of it's electronics. Therefore I can't see me changing in future for "something newer", it would have to be for a good reason, I could actually see me going older again when the time comes to change. I suspect this will be once the kids have left and my needs would have shifted radically.


Bob Sacamano wrote:
I think a new job would bring a lot more happiness than a new car.


Best advice yet.

Two thoughts:

1. New job give you the "something new" you want.
2. If you change job there may well be a different car policy, e.g. company cars so you don't won't to buy something then find you need to sell it.


The 'newer' tech big bill worry/argument is a bit pointless. A few years ago, a mate had to spend around £1200 on a new electronic control module for his 40k miles 1991 E32. Still a worry of course - but what I mean as that even older luxury cars have components that could still give you a hefty bill/fright.

The module wasn't engine/gearbox related - it simply controlled one or both of the rear light clusters from what I remember.
gonnabuildabuggy

That's a big bill!

You're right, but perhaps my argument is more there are more modules to go wrong. The odd £1200 bill is palletable, lots of them isn't.

On reflection the E39 was heavily electronic, I suspect the complexity gap between the E39 and E500 is smaller than the E36 and E39.
Alf McQueef

I think older and newer cars can throw up big bills, both for parts and labour, personally. I like to think that a newer one is less likely to have things break, unless the item has a design flaw... The trouble with going older is - it's older - and personally I believe cars are better developed and tested now than previously.

My other - big - issue with older cars is that general feeling of bagginess where really you would like to change all the shocks/bushes/etc to make it drive anything like new but the cost would be massive. Drive an older car hard, get it at all out of shape, and it can bite hard when the shocks and other parts are not doing their job fully. I speak from experience!

Mileage is the killer for values - it swiftly makes whatever you buy worthless. Depreciation-wise I can see the point of an old 911 or Exige or whatever in the garage IF it is going to be used enough to be enjoyed, the amount of money lost on it will be tiny as long as nothing breaks. It may even appreciate in this silly market. But the outlay will be big. Not for me, now, but I can see it makes financial sense, though it makes little other sense if the daily driver is something miserable and is heavily used.
simonp

My current car is the first one I bought without seeing someone at the bank first. Whilst this has brought about a strong feeling that I can't bring myself to borrow money again to buy a car, I also cannot see how I'm ever going to afford to do it again, as used prices for anything half decent are so high now. I guess I'm entering into bangernomics land with my next one?!
Boxer6

simonp wrote:
My current car is the first one I bought without seeing someone at the bank first. Whilst this has brought about a strong feeling that I can't bring myself to borrow money again to buy a car, I also cannot see how I'm ever going to afford to do it again, as used prices for anything half decent are so high now. I guess I'm entering into bangernomics land with my next one?!


This. In spades.  
simonp

I can only think of 2 or 3 cars I'd replace the Golf with, a mk 6 Golf R, an Audi S4 Avant or at the outside an Insignia VXR. The last one is the best value, but will probably depreciate more than the other two. Those two are only just starting to dip under 20 grand for 2009/2010 models, so assuming my car is worth 7 or 8 as a trade in I have to find 12 grand down the back of the sofa for a 4 year old car with no warranty left. That ain't gonna happen!
Frank Bullitt

simonp wrote:
I can only think of 2 or 3 cars I'd replace the Golf with, a mk 6 Golf R, an Audi S4 Avant or at the outside an Insignia VXR. The last one is the best value, but will probably depreciate more than the other two. Those two are only just starting to dip under 20 grand for 2009/2010 models, so assuming my car is worth 7 or 8 as a trade in I have to find 12 grand down the back of the sofa for a 4 year old car with no warranty left. That ain't gonna happen!


I think for many of us we are conditioned to buy at 2-3 years and sell at 5-6 when cars are still largely reliable but have depreciated the most and this gives us a viable cost to change which we can justify - the problem at the moment is 3 year old cars are still 'worth' way more than we are willing to pay (or have paid before) and the prices we are seeing as part-exchanges are not good reading as dealers seem to be looking to make more profit out of each car on the basis they are transacting less.  I suspect if you've always been a PCP sort of person then deals have got better recently rather than worse but for those of us who either psychologically hate the idea of paying for an asset we don't own (rather than funding the depreciation of a non-asset we don't want to own) or still think funding a new car this way for three years is simply too much there's limited choice.

I think it was JohnC who pointed out all the deals are in new cars - anything nearly new is horrendous VFM
Roadsterstu

An example of that being a friend who popped in to a Nissan dealer last weekend "to have a look" and came away with a new Juke to replace her current Juke. Next model up, new, thirty quid a month less. Presumably there is good money to be made on her old one on the used car forecourt.
Seems such an odd concept when you first hear it. Almost too good to be true, except that it is true!
gonnabuildabuggy

Roadsterstu wrote:
An example of that being a friend who popped in to a Nissan dealer last weekend "to have a look" and came away with a new Juke to replace her current Juke. Next model up, new, thirty quid a month less. Presumably there is good money to be made on her old one on the used car forecourt.
Seems such an odd concept when you first hear it. Almost too good to be true, except that it is true!


Could be the level of "manufacturer incentive" on new car finance (this is designed to shift metal in the UK whilst the rest of Europe is in the doldrums).

A friend went to buy a new car for his wife last week and ended up buying a C3 Picasso. He couldn't get any money off for a cash purchase but they knocked £3K if he took the finance which he could pay off within 6 months without penalty.

Makes me ponder how I'm going to sort my mum's, she's got no credit history so this type of deal might cause her a problem (she's not short of cash so has never needed finance).
JohnC

Since expressing an interest in a 4 series at a dealer (not my local one because I don't trust them an inch), I am getting fairly regular phone calls to see "if there is anything we can do". I told them I was currently undecided but if I was buying new I would probably buy from someone like Broadspeed because their deals were much better than anything that appeared to be on offer locally. I was told that they would be able to match any deal I could get at Broadspeed (although drivethedeal are currently better) and could give me the 4.9% finance. I drifted on to the subject of a 6 mth old 6 series they have which is about the same price as a well specced 430D or a more basic 435D and he said that the best rate they could do on that car would be around 12% but I would need to come in to discuss finance. Over 3 or 4 years, the difference in interest rates makes a massive difference.
He seemed much keener to get the new car sale and didn't really want to discuss the used 6 series so I am sure it is all about manufacturer's incentives at the moment.
The value of 6 series must be a real worry to anyone that owns one. I was watching a white one which Coopers have. It is a 13 Reg and started out at about £46,000. It is down to £41,995 on the BMW website but has now appeared in Autotrader at £38,995. How low can they go?
Frank Bullitt

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
Roadsterstu wrote:
An example of that being a friend who popped in to a Nissan dealer last weekend "to have a look" and came away with a new Juke to replace her current Juke. Next model up, new, thirty quid a month less. Presumably there is good money to be made on her old one on the used car forecourt.
Seems such an odd concept when you first hear it. Almost too good to be true, except that it is true!


Could be the level of "manufacturer incentive" on new car finance (this is designed to shift metal in the UK whilst the rest of Europe is in the doldrums).


It's not a new thing - our C4 Picasso was an early trade-in on a PCP deal as the sales guy explained they'd got the lady into a new one for less monthly payment than she had on her car (it was 2 1/2 years old at the time).

Forgot to mention elsewhere that after expressing my disappointment that the local Citroen outfit was quite far away from the broadspeed price the dealer has 'had a chat with the sales manager' and they can now do the exact spec we want for a few hundred less than Broadspeed on a factory order as a 'special' - I suspect had he offered that when we were 'hot' in negotiations he'd have got a sale but now we've had a chance to mull things over (see my thread on our C4 Picasso) we can't be arsed so will sit tight - however, the price of it is only £1.5K more than nearly new cars are up for and it's on 0% finance so, factoring that in, it's the same cost...
gonnabuildabuggy

JohnC wrote:

The value of 6 series must be a real worry to anyone that owns one. I was watching a white one which Coopers have. It is a 13 Reg and started out at about £46,000. It is down to £41,995 on the BMW website but has now appeared in Autotrader at £38,995. How low can they go?


Indeed. For anyone who doesn't own one and thinks they might when cheap enough, this is good news though  

Laws of supply and demand and plenty of shiny new 6 series being sold cheap on subsidised finance whilst demand for such big stuff used will always be neglible so prices plummet.

Have you look at an A7? Might suit you and equally bargainous second hand.
Alf McQueef

Frank Bullitt wrote:


I think it was JohnC who pointed out all the deals are in new cars - anything nearly new is horrendous VFM


Checking out petrol X1's (by definition new or nearly new only) the demonstrators are up for what seems quite a big discount from new, until you check out Broadspeed and see that you can buy a new one for much the same! It does seem that if you go the Broadspeed route discounts on new are a lot higher than they were a while back, hence the good finance figures - maybe we are moving to more of a volume not profit phase again. We can hope... More cars being sold at lower prices ought to bring SH prices down.
JohnC

When I heard on the news that car sales were at record highs I couldn't help but think the only way that is achieved is through massive discounting. Most of those cars will probably find their way into lease companies though.
Tim

Subaru were recently offering massive incentives on the Legacy (which must be next to change after the new Forrester). In the order of 20-25% of the cost price.
Boxer6

Tim wrote:
Subaru were recently offering massive incentives on the Legacy (which must be next to change after the new Forrester). In the order of 20-25% of the cost price.


I got a full third off the cost of mine - which was the only way I could have afforded it to be honest. They were just introducing the dieseasel at the time IIRC, so that may have played a part.
Tim

Boxer6 wrote:
Tim wrote:
Subaru were recently offering massive incentives on the Legacy (which must be next to change after the new Forrester). In the order of 20-25% of the cost price.


I got a full third off the cost of mine - which was the only way I could have afforded it to be honest. They were just introducing the dieseasel at the time IIRC, so that may have played a part.


Whatever you do don't ever buy a Subaru diesel.
JohnC

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
Laws of supply and demand and plenty of shiny new 6 series being sold cheap on subsidised finance whilst demand for such big stuff used will always be neglible so prices plummet.

Have you look at an A7? Might suit you and equally bargainous second hand.


I see that some dealers are now offering over £19K off the 6 series but the zero % interest is now 3.9%. I  keep my fingers crossed that they keep falling in price.

I have considered the A7 but I would want the 245hp one and they haven't quite fallen far enough yet. If I could put up with 204hp and fwd, Motorpoint have some with about 15K miles for around £25K which is great value when you look at what you get.
JohnC

Another one for Alf at the right price but lacking a couple of cylinders:

http://www.motorpoint.co.uk/VehicleAdvert/BMW/3%20SERIES/449100

Wrong fuel but correct No of cylinders:

http://www.motorpoint.co.uk/Vehic...D%20M%20SPORT%204DR%20STEP%20AUTO
Boxer6

Tim wrote:
Boxer6 wrote:
Tim wrote:
Subaru were recently offering massive incentives on the Legacy (which must be next to change after the new Forrester). In the order of 20-25% of the cost price.


I got a full third off the cost of mine - which was the only way I could have afforded it to be honest. They were just introducing the dieseasel at the time IIRC, so that may have played a part.


Whatever you do don't ever buy a Subaru diesel.


No chance - seen too many horror stories about them on the Legacy forum ...
Tim

Boxer6 wrote:
Tim wrote:
Boxer6 wrote:
Tim wrote:
Subaru were recently offering massive incentives on the Legacy (which must be next to change after the new Forrester). In the order of 20-25% of the cost price.


I got a full third off the cost of mine - which was the only way I could have afforded it to be honest. They were just introducing the dieseasel at the time IIRC, so that may have played a part.


Whatever you do don't ever buy a Subaru diesel.


No chance - seen too many horror stories about them on the Legacy forum ...


They're a common, and unwelcome, sight in the workshop here.
gooner

JohnC wrote:
Another one for Alf at the right price but lacking a couple of cylinders:

http://www.motorpoint.co.uk/VehicleAdvert/BMW/3%20SERIES/449100

Wrong fuel but correct No of cylinders:

http://www.motorpoint.co.uk/Vehic...D%20M%20SPORT%204DR%20STEP%20AUTO


What annoys me about those adverts is how they state that you're saving almost 10k over list yet It's a year old car with 7000 miles on the clock. So its not actually a 10 grand discount is it!

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