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Giant

McLaren 650S

New more powerful MP12 4C based model, presumably previewing a facelift of the standard models.
http://m.autocar.co.uk/car-news/g...ets-early-debut-ahead-geneva-show
I'm not sure of the nose job, despite being very rude about the current styling at launch.
I know the running lights are meant to resemble McLaren's (pretty non descript) corporate logo, but they always make me think of Vauxhalls!
Nice Guy Eddie

Loving the P1 front.
michael

I like it but would take a different wheel option.
ds240

I personally think Mclaren are taking the piss!

This is a 12C with performance upgrades, not a stand alone model. Fine, you expect that from a maker such as a 458 Speciale over a normal 458. What gets me is they have grafted on a new nose which straight away dates the 12c and has no halo effect for the rest of the range.

If I had just bought a 12c, this would really annoy me. Why the hell does it not even refer to the 12c, such as a 12C-R or 12C-650.

It just looks like mclaren are making it up as they go along with little forward thinking. Even the original 12c launch was a mess with all the upgrades required.
Giant

ds240 wrote:
I personally think Mclaren are taking the piss!

This is a 12C with performance upgrades, not a stand alone model. Fine, you expect that from a maker such as a 458 Speciale over a normal 458. What gets me is they have grafted on a new nose which straight away dates the 12c and has no halo effect for the rest of the range.

If I had just bought a 12c, this would really annoy me. Why the hell does it not even refer to the 12c, such as a 12C-R or 12C-650.

It just looks like mclaren are making it up as they go along with little forward thinking. Even the original 12c launch was a mess with all the upgrades required.


I' m reasonably certain the nose will be grafted onto the whole 4C range as a facelift, as I said in the OP.

I agree the name seems odd as it doesn't reference the 4C
Richard (ex-MB_insider)

As I understand it this is in truth a midlife facelift of the 12C (the MP4 tag was dropped some time ago).

I believe that the reason McLaren are being slightly coy about this is due to the number of unsold 12C Coupes in the dealer network (Coupe sales have struggled since the launch of the 12C Spider).
Giant

I've just realised I've been calling the car MP12-4C rather than MP4-12C and have been since it's launch. That's the trouble with having such a catchy name!
Twelfth Monkey

ds240 wrote:
I personally think Mclaren are taking the piss!

This is a 12C with performance upgrades, not a stand alone model. Fine, you expect that from a maker such as a 458 Speciale over a normal 458. What gets me is they have grafted on a new nose which straight away dates the 12c and has no halo effect for the rest of the range.

If I had just bought a 12c, this would really annoy me. Why the hell does it not even refer to the 12c, such as a 12C-R or 12C-650.

It just looks like mclaren are making it up as they go along with little forward thinking. Even the original 12c launch was a mess with all the upgrades required.


I don't see that they are doing anything unusual, myself.  Besides which, I think McLaren has done a pretty good job in terms of giving owners access to upgrades in a way that seems far beyond almost all car companies.
Humphrey The Pug

Giant wrote:
I've just realised I've been calling the car MP12-4C rather than MP4-12C and have been since it's launch. That's the trouble with having such a catchy name!


Haven't they now dropped the "MP4" so it is now the Maclaren 12C?
Big Blue

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
Giant wrote:
I've just realised I've been calling the car MP12-4C rather than MP4-12C and have been since it's launch. That's the trouble with having such a catchy name!


Haven't they now dropped the "MP4" so it is now the Maclaren 12C?


Isn't it "that car that wants to be as desirable as a Ferrari but isn't"?
ds240

If I had the money I would not touch mclaren now. Other than their products leaving me cold (F1 not included), I hate this made up product strategy with now clear idea what they'll do next. It is clear that people paying out for the 650S will soon just be driving something now a bit dated and undervalued because it has simply become the standard 12C.

P1 owners must also be chuffed that something else in the range is sharing the same face. You'd think mclaren would want to separate the faces of the P1 and 650/12C as most think a lot of what is underneath is shared anyway.

This reminds me of Aston Martin; Ladies and Gents.... The new Virage, which definitely isn't just what we should have called a DB9 facelift....... A few months later. Sorry Virage owners, thanks for your cash but the model has suddenly become a limited edition. Oh, and though they look identical, the all new (facelift) DB9 definitely isn't just your Virage with a new badge. Thank you loyal mugs.. sorry, customers.

I do hope the 918 and La Ferrari smash the P1 in group tests. I think Ferrari is so ahead of the game at the moment the LaFerrari will be sensational.
PhilD

ds240 wrote:
If I had the money I would not touch mclaren now. Other than their products leaving me cold (F1 not included), I hate this made up product strategy with now clear idea what they'll do next. It is clear that people paying out for the 650S will soon just be driving something now a bit dated and undervalued because it has simply become the standard 12C.

P1 owners must also be chuffed that something else in the range is sharing the same face. You'd think mclaren would want to separate the faces of the P1 and 650/12C as most think a lot of what is underneath is shared anyway.

This reminds me of Aston Martin; Ladies and Gents.... The new Virage, which definitely isn't just what we should have called a DB9 facelift....... A few months later. Sorry Virage owners, thanks for your cash but the model has suddenly become a limited edition. Oh, and though they look identical, the all new (facelift) DB9 definitely isn't just your Virage with a new badge. Thank you loyal mugs.. sorry, customers.

I do hope the 918 and La Ferrari smash the P1 in group tests. I think Ferrari is so ahead of the game at the moment the LaFerrari will be sensational.


you seem to be taking this very personally!

I’m sure McLaren know what they are doing.
!
Big Blue

I can't disagree with ds240 re: Aston and McLaren, but this is the MO of a small car company. Ferrari have FIAT resources and all manner of banking machinations to hide whatever their real bottom line looks like and Porsche have VW (or the other way round, eh, American bankers ) for the same. Aston are in limp-home mode and McLaren want to avoid going into it.
ds240

PhilD wrote:
ds240 wrote:
If I had the money I would not touch mclaren now. Other than their products leaving me cold (F1 not included), I hate this made up product strategy with now clear idea what they'll do next. It is clear that people paying out for the 650S will soon just be driving something now a bit dated and undervalued because it has simply become the standard 12C.

P1 owners must also be chuffed that something else in the range is sharing the same face. You'd think mclaren would want to separate the faces of the P1 and 650/12C as most think a lot of what is underneath is shared anyway.

This reminds me of Aston Martin; Ladies and Gents.... The new Virage, which definitely isn't just what we should have called a DB9 facelift....... A few months later. Sorry Virage owners, thanks for your cash but the model has suddenly become a limited edition. Oh, and though they look identical, the all new (facelift) DB9 definitely isn't just your Virage with a new badge. Thank you loyal mugs.. sorry, customers.

I do hope the 918 and La Ferrari smash the P1 in group tests. I think Ferrari is so ahead of the game at the moment the LaFerrari will be sensational.


you seem to be taking this very personally!

I’m sure McLaren know what they are doing.
!


Not really... No where near ever being a customer of Ferrari or mclaren.

I'm sure mclaren know exactly what their doing, not suggesting otherwise, other than seemingly short sighted product planning.

Just adding to a forum with my opinion from how I observe it, and in this particular case I find it annoying how they go about things.

I loved owning a lotus but abandoned buying a new one because you never knew what was going to happen next. Buy brand new and next minute there is an updated model.

At least with Porsche you have clear model lines and progression. You know newer upgraded models are coming but they don't wipe out the current models. The forthcoming boxster/cayman GTS won't have a 918 nose grafted on. They will still clearly be boxster/caymans.

As mentioned before Ferrari use the 458 Speciale to enhance the whole range. They haven't felt the need to put a LaFerrari nose on it.
Nice Guy Eddie

The 12C has the advantage of not being a Ferrari.

You can't drive a 458 under the radar which you can in a more dull coloured 12C. Great car as the 458 is I still think I'd take the 12C.

The problem Mclaren have is their lack of experience in this sector. The dealer network aren't happy as they have little financial support from McLaren. This has meant they can't take cars in px hence 12C's apprearing at Auction which does nothing for resale value and confidence in the market.

I'm with Clarkson on the P1, I can't see the 918 getting close and the Ferrari seems to have gone back to the drawing board since McLaren has launched the P1. For me it's the hypercar of choice.
Giant

ds240 wrote:
The forthcoming boxster/cayman GTS won't have a 918 nose grafted on. They will still clearly be boxster/caymans.


Using Porsche as an example of a manufacturer which has clear styling cues for each model is an odd notion, they are the masters of one style suits all! There may be (a bit) more differentiation between Boxman and 911 these days but remember the original Boxster? That shared a huge amount with 911, including the front end styling and at the time Porsche were far bigger than McLaren currently are. Also, I'm sure 918 styling cues will filter down to other models, that's generally how these halo models work.

Granted the 650S styling is too similar to P1 and probably too soon given the P1 is still getting lots of launch press, but the logic makes perfect sense and is the path trodden by many before.
PhilD

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
I'm with Clarkson on the P1, I can't see the 918 getting close and the Ferrari seems to have gone back to the drawing board since McLaren has launched the P1. For me it's the hypercar of choice.


Which girls name are going for?  
Nice Guy Eddie

Edwina.

The thing with the Boxster/911 looks is true but we forget that Porsche was a basket case back in the mid 90's with little profit per unit and not much of a model range. The 993 cost too much to make and the 968 I guess didn't really sell that well until the CS. Therefore the Boxster had to share dash, doors, lights, bumpers etc to get economies of scale.

Why they need the Cayenne to look like a 911 however is another matter.
Chocy Rocky

I like the look of that but I'm with ds240 on this.

It also devalues the status of the P1.
Twelfth Monkey

ds240 wrote:
I do hope the 918 and La Ferrari smash the P1 in group tests.


I can see where Phil's coming from - that's a strongly-loaded statement emotionally!
Martin

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
Edwina.

The thing with the Boxster/911 looks is true but we forget that Porsche was a basket case back in the mid 90's with little profit per unit and not much of a model range. The 993 cost too much to make and the 968 I guess didn't really sell that well until the CS. Therefore the Boxster had to share dash, doors, lights, bumpers etc to get economies of scale.

Why they need the Cayenne to look like a 911 however is another matter.


There is still a lot of (visible) components/trim shared between the Boxster/911, which makes complete sense.  On the subject of sharing, I'd rather the stalks weren't VAG parts.   They're OK on a Passat/A4, but feel quite old fashioned compared to mine.  That's my only complaint so far and calling it a complaint is a stretch, so not too bad!
Twelfth Monkey

Re McLaren's strategy etc, I suspect we perhaps don't understand the mentality of the limited numbers of people who can afford these things.  If the P1 is sold out, there's nowt wrong with how they've played it.

I think we also forget at the time that the now hallowed F1 was often viewed as being a bit cold in comparison with the F40.  Not a view I ever held (albeit from a distance).

The interview a week or two back with the McLaren automotive head honcho basically admitted that the car wasn't developed as far as it should have been.  I think they've set about rectifying it admirably, in that (as far as I understand it) most if of all of the upgrades made to the 12C are available to owners at no cost.
Matt

The rather bland rear styling isn't being helped by this new nose. If they'd have kept the 12C front and did something more emotive with the back two-thirds it might have been a better result.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

I think McLaren actually understand their customers very well - the very rich always want new things to spend their money on, so the fact they've already got a 12C and Spyder is irrelevant - they'll have one of these too just because it's new. Some of evo's contributors are typical examples of this.

And those who didn't manage to get a P1 will want one of these. Though I read that McLaren are keeping a backup list in case any of the original 375 cancel their order.
Racing Teatray

It sounds so wrong to say this about this sort of car, but....frankly....."meh".
Twelfth Monkey

I read that the PS may have gone from 620 to 650, but the torks have gone from 442 to 500.  0-100 drops from the mid sixes to 5.7, which is just 0.2 behind the Veyron Supersport.  Sutters seems to love it, too...
Nice Guy Eddie

I think Evo got rather excited about the 650 too.

I see a load of 12C's going cheap soon as current owners swap into these.
Twelfth Monkey

That might not be 'cheap' as we would tend to understand it, alas...
Martin

I watched the Chris Harris video on Drive last night and he really liked it too, but thought it was only fractions better than the 12C.
PhilD

Could also go in the “How Much” thread. Original 12C was £170k. Spider adder £20k and word on street was that no one would buy the coupe. 650 takes base price up to £190k and Spider to £215k

So McLaren have effectively lifted the base price of the 12C from £170 to £215k in a year!

(and no doubt each car has at least £20k of options)
Twelfth Monkey

As I understand it, 12C production has ceased (possibly temporarily, but maybe not) as the orders being placed now are for the 650S.  Like I say, I don't think we can easily grasp the mindset of someone minted enough to afford these things - to them the increase is small change, I suspect.  

And as Sutters points out (if value were to be important), a Veyron with similar performance is £1.5M, not just over £200k!
ds240

As mentioned before, I couldn't get over the mclaren product planning.

Confirmed today.. 12C production ends, forever.

Only last month (just) at Geneva motorshow they announce 12C would still be an option it certainly isn't discontinued! What the hell are they doing at mclaren, it really does all seem made up as they go along.
PhilD

ds240 wrote:
As mentioned before, I couldn't get over the mclaren product planning.

Confirmed today.. 12C production ends, forever.

Only last month (just) at Geneva motorshow they announce 12C would still be an option it certainly isn't discontinued! What the hell are they doing at mclaren, it really does all seem made up as they go along.


not this again DS!    I'll tell you what they are doing, making oodles of filthy lucre and establishing McLaren Cars as one of the big players.
Twelfth Monkey

Board meeting in the meantime?  12C orders completely disappear?  There are many reasons why the stance would change.  What I don't get is why you seem to dislike McLaren so much!  For a start-up enterprise (albeit a well-resourced one), to go, in such short order, from zero to taking on Ferrari at the top of its game is pretty good going, even if there were a few teething troubles with the 12C.  I'm pleased that a British company is making world-class products, and doubly so that it's manufacturing.
Giant

ds240 wrote:
As mentioned before, I couldn't get over the mclaren product planning.

Confirmed today.. 12C production ends, forever.

Only last month (just) at Geneva motorshow they announce 12C would still be an option it certainly isn't discontinued! What the hell are they doing at mclaren, it really does all seem made up as they go along.


Maybe everyone with orders for 12Cs have upgraded their order to 650S? Meaning an extra £20k per unit as mentioned by Phil. To facelift a car enabling a 10% price increase suggests they know exactly what they are doing! What's your problem with McLaren?
Twelfth Monkey

Reading the stories though, it's a darn sight more than a facelift. Better suspension, steering, braking, more engaging to drive, 5% more power, 15% more torque, nearly 10% lopped off the 0-100 time.  I think that's worth the extra, or (more accurately) I would do if I could afford it!
PhilD

Yeah but you chip the engine and do that for £500  
ds240

Giant wrote:
ds240 wrote:
As mentioned before, I couldn't get over the mclaren product planning.

Confirmed today.. 12C production ends, forever.

Only last month (just) at Geneva motorshow they announce 12C would still be an option it certainly isn't discontinued! What the hell are they doing at mclaren, it really does all seem made up as they go along.


Maybe everyone with orders for 12Cs have upgraded their order to 650S? Meaning an extra £20k per unit as mentioned by Phil. To facelift a car enabling a 10% price increase suggests they know exactly what they are doing! What's your problem with McLaren?


As explained earlier in this discussion, I don't have some 'problem' with mclaren. People can voice views for and against the way companies do things.

What I can say is that if I had the wealth to be in the market for their products I wouldn't have one, purely based on the way they have released their product.

They can't decide what to call their car in the first place having gone from all the MP4 stuff to just 12c. It is launched seemingly too early and keeps needing updates. Launch this 650s stating it doesn't replace 12c but change that 2 weeks later. They totally sink existing 12c customers who prematurely have a vastly outdated model.

Ferrari launch 458 and it is very good, no major updates. Launch 458 Speciale which has minor external differences and mechanical updates. They don't alter the entire look and call it the 560S, therefore alienating the 458 owners.

Fact is, if you bought the 12C early on or even 6 months ago, you expect it to have a longer life than 3 years.
Martin

I really admire what McLaren have achieved and both the 12C and 650S are cracking cars.  However, I don't think they've looked after the early adopters anywhere near enough.  They shouldn't have charged for updating the sat nav and fixing other stuff or brought out such a different model so quickly, which effectively makes the 12C out of date.

I wouldn't be happy.
Nice Guy Eddie

Its effectively a start up business.

They've got many things wrong, which other start up doesn't. Just because its called a McLaren doesn't mean it has 50 years of race car breeding behind it.

They are not Ferrari, a company thats been making cars for 60 odd years. In the early days there customer service famously started Lamborghini cars. Ferrari recalled the 458 and even the great Porsche treat their customers with contempt due to continuous engine problems on 911's/boxster/cayman/cayenne and fires on the GT3 and effectively washing their hands of problems.

McLaren have 2 cars in their lineup the 12C and P1. The P1 will soon be done so how do you get customer's to keep buying. These customers tend not to keep cars three years, 12 months and there onto something else hence the 650S as an upgrade. You can't just keep producing the 12C and hope customers will change to a different colour, you have to provide something new.

One area where McLaren have dropped the ball is in their dealership network. They haven't got the funds to support them properly and therefore the dealerships can't afford to buy used 12C's. The cars are going into the auction and specialists at knock down prices therefore effecting the values. This is the area where customers will care. If a 12C costs twice as much to run as a 458 then who's going to bother.

Its an impressive effort so far, not perfect but tell me someone who has entered this market place in the last few years and done it better. If they had the support of a company like VW with the deep pockets, facilities and resources then fair enough but even Bugatti has been far from plane sailing.
PhilD

ds240 wrote:


As explained earlier in this discussion, I don't have some 'problem' with mclaren. People can voice views for and against the way companies do things.




You just come across as very worked up about it DS!
PhilD

nice video (as always) from Chris Harris

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=29730

and my geeky side loves the tech talk (as with the P1 video)

Can't quite believe how flat it corners.
Twelfth Monkey

I've watched a couple of the videos recently, and hadn't clocked that the 650S has more kit as standard, including carbon-ceramic brakes and a reversing camera.  Admittedly the latter shouldn't carry too large a price tag, but I suspect the brakes would have been an expensive option.  The cost differential is therefore not that great at this rarified level, I would suggest.

EDIT brake upgrade would add £9,770 to the 12C.
PhilD

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
I've watched a couple of the videos recently, and hadn't clocked that the 650S has more kit as standard, including carbon-ceramic brakes and a reversing camera.  Admittedly the latter shouldn't carry too large a price tag, but I suspect the brakes would have been an expensive option.  The cost differential is therefore not that great at this rarified level, I would suggest.

EDIT brake upgrade would add £9,770 to the 12C.


Sounds like you are talking yourself into one 12th!

Man maths would of course kick in “oh so I get the carbon brakes as standard and save £10k? Fab, in that case I’ll go for the monogrammed carbon air-freshener as well. £7812 you say? Fine, I’ll take two”
Twelfth Monkey

If I had the readies genuinely available, it's probably what I'd choose.  Big IF, alas.
Richard (ex-MB_insider)

PhilD wrote:
I'll tell you what they are doing, making oodles of filthy lucre


Just out of curiosity, how much money do you think they have made?
PhilD

Richard (ex-MB_insider) wrote:
PhilD wrote:
I'll tell you what they are doing, making oodles of filthy lucre


Just out of curiosity, how much money do you think they have made?


Oooh, do you know?
Richard (ex-MB_insider)

PhilD wrote:
Oooh, do you know?


You can read their accounts at Companies House albeit in statutory form and sometime after their accounting year ends.

By the end of 2012 they had burned through £354 million of their investors money without showing a profit. Almost all of their loans had to be converted to interest-free debt or (together with overdue interest payments) converted into equity.

They may well make money in the future (they claim a small profit in 2013 but the accounts have not been filed) but to date each car has been sold at a whopping loss.
Alf McQueef

I am no lover of the 12C's looks, and the 650S is a bit better, but not Ferrari.

However... If I was genuinely in the market for such a thing, and wanted to drive it a lot - perhaps on jaunts through Scotland or across Europe (which is the sort of thing I would do if was a gazillionaire) then I would be very interested in the 12C or 650S. It is a genuine all-day comfortable proposition, with absolutely mind bending point to point capability when you want it. It's also a highly exclusive brand that does not shout "I'm showing off" quite like a yellow lambo or red ferrari. I can see the appeal and I can see why owners like them.
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