| Archive for The Motor Forum talking cars since 2006 |
| ALF |
LPGWhat are the forum posse's feelings on this?I passed a petrol station earlier and saw LPG at around half the cost of petrol/diesel. It got me thinking - since I'm doing 2-3k miles a month now, and like the big-engined feel, could this be the way ahead? We've noted some biggish petrol engined enthusiast cars like the GTA's going back up in price a bit, but the recession, fuel prices, and tax laws have hammered the more volume-produced big engined cars. Even some sporty brands like AMG have shite residuals, but petrol V8-engined versions of things like 5-series BMW's, non-AMG V8 mercs, V8 volvos, etc are cheap as chips. Anyone heard of any downsides to LPG in terms of reliability etc? How are they treated tax-wise? Any grants available for converting your car? One worry would be the ongoing availability of LPG, and the ongoing tax incentive - though the former may be a non-issue as it is increasingly popular with green-minded bus fleets, being a lot better in terms of particulates than diesel. |
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| gonnabuildabuggy |
Re: LPG
The pricing is my concern - as soon as it becomes popular the tax goes up just as it did with Diesel. From what I hear reliability is OK. I vaguely considered it but can't warrant spending £2K (no more grants now) to convert a £2K car. If it were me then a nice old 540i/740i worth about £4K with a £2K conversion (or maybe a Jag) would be an interesting route to go. Or just buy one that's been converted, they seem to struggle with resale. |
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| DradusContact |
They seem to struggle with resale as they are often shoddily converted, you have to be careful | ||||
| Richard (ex-MB_insider) |
Have a look on here:
http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/index.php I doubt that LPG will disappear but the Government is aware of the growing number of LPG vehicles and the risk that presents to revenues from fuel duty. In 2007 Gordon put the fuel duty up by around 30% to try and recover some of the lost revenue. |
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| Eff One |
You can't take an LPG car in the Channel Tunnel. Not sure about ferries. | ||||
| DaveGibson |
I don't think a conversion offers any tax benefits (other than fuel costs). As far as I know (I haven't checked so I may be mistaken), car tax and the congestion charge are levied on the ex-factory configuration. | ||||
| BeN |
You'll be carrying a tank in the boot. This might negate any potential 'savings' you might get.
Not to mention the possible disappearance of boot space. |
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| Parm |
My friend had an LPG conversion on his 4.2 v8 S-Type. He's had a plethora of issues with it though, mainly due to a poor installation. Other than that, he seems happy with it. He does around 20K miles a year. | ||||
| gonnabuildabuggy |
Who did it? A V8 S-Type seems the perfect candidate for it. |
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| SpecB |
The 4.0 Cherokee I had a couple of years ago ran on the stuff and it seemed to go OK but the economy was still terrible. 
It was quite an old kit that had to start on petrol then switched over to gas automatically once started. I could only get about 150 miles from £30 of gas. I never tested the petrol economy but just using it to start used half a tank a month. Subaru are supposed to be developing their own kit for the H6 - they do them for the 2.0 and 2.5 but I won't be getting it done if and when it eventually comes out. |
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| ALF |
One obvious concern is that if I get say a 5.5 litre Merc and convert it, then given that LPG cars suffer 20% less economy than on petrol, I'd only get about 20mpg even on long runs which equates to about the same 36-38mpg I get now from a neither slow nor small petrol car!
However, in my case I would not be doing it to have lower fuel costs, I'd be doing it to make driving the sort of cars/engines I like acceptable cost-wise given my mileage. |
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| Guitar Zero |
Whether an LPG conversion is worth it or not depends on many variables - ignoring worries about the quality of the installation, let's consider the financial implications :
1) Assuming someone fits it for you - it's £1500 to £2500 depending on the system, tank and type of car - as an example, EVO mags Alpy B10 cost over £2400 2) LPG has a lower volumetric efficency when compared with petrol - so you get even less miles per gallon on LPG. However the reason you save money is because it's so much cheaper per litre to purchase. Why is it so much cheaper ? - because the fuel tax on LPG is substantially less than on petrol. 3) How much you save depends on the price of petrol - I don't know how much LPG is affected by swings in oil prices, but the LPG savings would have been much lower a few months ago than compared with last year when petrol topped £1.20 per litre. 4) You will need to drive big miles to recoup the install costs before you can start to save money - EVO were looking at 30k miles to break even on the B10. In conclusion : Having an LPG conversion only really makes sense if you cover high mileages and/or intend to keep your car for 3 years plus. You need to work out when (approximately) you will break even on the installation and then for how long you will be enjoying lower prices - if you only end up saving £500 over 3 or 4 years, why go to the bother ? Also, never forget that the Government could ruin your plan in one fell swoop by whacking the tax up on LPG - then you are truly screwed. Now if you consider the stupid tank in the boot (or the loss of the spare wheel wheel) and any potential problems with reliability or installation quality and it looks a far less attractive proposition. Of course, if you are a skilled mechanic - then there is a lot to be said for installing a kit yourself to alay some of the worries above - but it's still expensive and there are quite a few cars that don't convert easily - V8 Jags in particular. On the plus side - your car may be worth more secondhand with a pukka conversion - providing the Government don't destroy the LPG market overnight with a tax grab. Personally, I wouldn't bother - although I may consider a factory spec LPG car if it was the right price (didn't Ford and Volvo do LPG and CNG models ?) |
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| GonnaBreakABuggy |
5) You lose a lot of boot space unless you have the petrol tank converted, and that generally means a very small LPG tank.
6) The weight of the tank means that performance and economy will drop a little. |
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| gonnabuildabuggy |
Yes, Volvo did and I think a Ford Focus? An LPG S60 would be a comfy cruiser and 5 cyls. Was there a Saab as well or am I thinking Biofuel? |
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| SpecB |
I think that was the issue with the Cherokee I had - I think it had a half and half tank in place of the full petrol tank. |
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| Bob Sacramento |
Mate of mine has an Audi A8 converted to run on LPG and gets the equivalent of over 50mpg on runs around the country, so he is well delighted. | ||||
| Guitar Zero |
Is he pleased simply at " the equivalent of 50 mpg " - or has he worked out how much he is projected to save over the next 3 or 4 years.
He'll still be paying the conversion costs off for the next year or two at least - in which case his net save can't be anything other than zero pounds until he reaches the break even point. |
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| Roadrunner |
I have read that you should go for one of the latest generation 'multipoint injection' LPG installations, if you do opt for the BBQ gas option. These are, apparrently, far more reliable and user friendly than the old systems. | ||||
| Roadrunner |
This reminds me of someone I know who spent about £4,500 having the V8 in his old Range Rover replaced with an Izuzu diesel engine. He generally does short local runs around the village, so it will likely take him 10 years to get his money back.. |
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| ALF |
Indeed - people can be crazy on that front, many of the people who have "downsized" but spent more on the new car will lose out massively overall in depreciation.
In my case only the fact I love these sorts of engines and the artificially low price of such cars make it potentially worthwhile. If you can pick up a not too old V8 car for miles less money than the smaller engined cars in the range that originally cost far less, it might be worth it - though other running costs need to be considered, these are often big heavy cars with serious running costs besides fuel! something like a 330 probably still makes more sense but I'll keep my eye on the likes of the 650, 550, etc... |
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| TimR |
That was my reasoning when looking for a Shogun 4 years ago. I knew it would be used sparingly and that the V6 petrols were cheaper used than the diesels plus the actual economy wasn't that different - the 2.5 diesel I ended up with did about 25mpg. The only reason I didn't get a V6 was the ones in my price range within a sensible distance were all shit. |
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| Bob Sacramento |
On his 25k a year he's saved about £2k on fuel costs in the first year, more than paying for the conversion. He bought the A8 secondhand, three years old, and he plans on keeping it 4 years so potential savings are £8k over that period. Plus he should get more for it when he sells than he would if it wasn't converted so he'll get some of his conversion costs back then as well. |
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| Roadrunner |
This was my reasoning behind buying a used V8 Land Rover 110 when I was farming, instead of the diesel version that all my friends were buying. Mine cost less than half the price of theirs, was much quicker and, with the big bore exhaust and tubular manifolds I fitted, sounded like a TVR. Result. 
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| PG |
That seems to be essential to avoid problems on newer vehicles - I presume that if the ECU is set up for multi-point petrol injection, then you need to same with LPG to give the engine any sort of chance and I think the multi-point systems work at much higher pump pressure too. I looked at a conversion when I bought the Jag. It was about £2k for a multi-point system (3 years ago) with a tank replacing the spare wheel. I'd have passed the break even point by now. But when I bought the car I thought I'd keep it a couple of years only and then trade. Of course the on / off VED changes and petrol prices mean that it's now worth the best part of piss all, so I'll have to keep a while longer. Bugger. |
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| DarthBalls |
I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned but Evo ran an Alpina 5 series with LPG conversion as part of its Fast Fleet last year, there's a link to a PDF on this website:
LPG.http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/what_customers_say.php My step dad has had a factory fit dual fuel Volvo S40 with no problems for the past few years. Before that he had an aftermarket LPG conversion done on his old 440 (when the LPG conversion was a new idea) which he replaced with a diesel but ended up going back to LPG. He is very happy with LPG. I also had a friend who got his 2.5 V6 Mondeo converted to LPG and he was also very happy. In his case the LPG tank was installed in the spare wheel well and he was supplied with a can of tyre gunk and a compressor. |
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| Big TC |
As others have said, the more popular LPG becomes, the more exise duty will be whacked onto it.
If someone could invent a vehicle that ran on water, just imagine how expensive that would become in time..... |
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| Guitar Zero |
It has been mentioned - twice in my first reply. |
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| gonnabuildabuggy |
What's their conclusion? |
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| DarthBalls |
Oh yeah, sorry, I rarely read anything you post. |