Archive for The Motor Forum "We are mature men in the highest cadres of our careers"
 


       The Motor Forum Forum Index -> Read All About It
Giant

Jaguar I-Pace

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news...led-plus-exclusive-autocar-images
JohnC

So the price of this is going to be 10% to 15% more than the equivalent F Pace which presumably makes it about £70K with a few extras.

Just how many people can afford to pay £70K for a car and given the electrical gubbins and its lifespan will anyone buy them when they are 6 or 7 years old?

Someone needs to find a cheaper alternative.

On that subject, a client was looking at getting a 3.0D F Pace recently but the used ones with decent specs were all around £60K.
He now has a virtually new pre registered X5 4.0D with all the kit and over £12K saved.
Chip Butty

Not sure I follow your issue with price - this isn't a mass market offering and isn't being touted as such.
Giant

Price seems comparable to Tesla Model X, which will be it's direct rival?

I think it looks bloody fantastic, reminds me of the RD6 concept in the way it fits modern Jag design cues to a stunted tailed hatch.
JohnC

Chip Butty wrote:
Not sure I follow your issue with price - this isn't a mass market offering and isn't being touted as such.


I know. However the only properly useable electric car is the Tesla at £70K plus and Jaguar are putting this up as a competitor at the same kind of price point. These prices are well in excess of the equivalent and much more flexible petrol or diesel variants and as a consequence will only be attractive to those who are determined to follow a more ecologically friendly approach now that they have made it in life.

The iphone entered the market at a much higher price point than other phones but it was so radical and did so much more that it became a runaway success. Electric cars can't/don't do this so premium pricing+ keeps them in a very small niche.

To be a success, someone is going to have to produce an electric car with plenty of space and a 300+ mile range and it is going to have to be price competitive with current offerings (at their discounted prices). However I suppose having this in the line up might help Jaguar meet some of the emission targets.
simonp

Only looks to have about half the interior space of the Tesla, so not really a rival, is it? Also, why does it require all those grilles at the front when the Tesla models don't?

Tis a good looking thing, but I can't see the point in it at all. If I was gonna pay 70 odd grand for an electric Jag I'd want it to look more like the C-X75 than a jacked up hatchback...
Twelfth Monkey

JohnC wrote:
The iphone entered the market at a much higher price point than other phones but the world kisses apple's arse so much that it became a runaway success.


FYP!

Shades of C30 about the glasshouse?

I wouldn't buy one, but don't mind the looks in a strange way.
Martin

That looks interesting, would need to see one to be sure, but I like it.  The interior looks nice and modern, but I'm not keen on the i3 style finish on the dash.  The price isn't ridiculous for a bespoke electric car with that sort of performance, not at this stage anyway.

My first thought was about JLR not having a good reputation for electrics / electronics, which would be a concern.   That may be unfair, but I know a few people who have had more than one issue in that area.
Giant

Price seems comparable to Tesla Model X, which will be it's direct rival?

I think it looks bloody fantastic, reminds me of the RD6 concept in the way it fits modern Jag design cues to a stunted tailed hatch.
Nice Guy Eddie

Looks more like a rival for an Infiniti QX30 rather than a 70k car.

I think the Tesla Model X a bit Micky Mouse so these things really aren't for me.
PG

I really like the styling on that - different enough to an ICE design, but still a Jag with recognisable design cues from the F-Pace (rear) and CX-75 (front).

Like John I'm a bit disappointed at the pricing. As it is said to have a smaller footprint than the F-Pace, then I hoped it would be cheaper than the F-Pace, rather then the mooted 10-15% more expensive.

But that's us dinosaurs still looking at list price. At the end it will all come down a combination of lease rates and what the tax treatment and BIK looks like on electric cars in the future. And on that basis, it'll be a huge success I reckon and good on them for that.
Michael

I bet it looks a whole lot better in the metal (carbon?) than the pictures. I notice the range is calculated on some European measure which I'm sure won't be representative.
Bob Sacamano

It look great to me, with a bit of nod to Volvo and Infiniti as has been noted.

The price is what it is; for all of Tesla's success they've yet to turn a profit. I expect Jaguar want to start small and profitable and build from there. There are too many potential pitfalls of releasing this in large numbers from the get go.
Tim

Looks nice enough to me.

The only thing I'm not keen is the name - 'Pace' is clearly going to become Jag's SUV range identifier (irritating enough) but why are all the electric cars from people being called i-something?
That's going to become hugely devalued at some point in the future when everyone falls out of love with Apple products.

Why not call them e-something?
PG

Tim wrote:
Why not call them e-something?


I'm guessing they can't call it the e-Pace as E-Pace is what the smaller XE sized F-Pace will be called if they follow their naming convention.
Nice Guy Eddie

Full Electric cars are still risky things to purchase when it comes to cost of ownership.

Look on Autotrader and enter fuel type as electric only, I was amazed how cheap stuff was. A 4 year old Fluence with 15000miles was up at 3.5k. OK its butt ugly but even Zoe's were 5k.

A lot of the car funders I deal with refuse to put a residual value into Teslas due to the negative equity involved in anything Electric.
Frank Bullitt

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
Look on Autotrader and enter fuel type as electric only, I was amazed how cheap stuff was. A 4 year old Fluence with 15000miles was up at 3.5k. OK its butt ugly but even Zoe's were 5k.


I did the same thing last week after somebody mentioned the poor residuals on the i3 - and spotted that Fluence too - I suddenly thought the £5k Zoe has legs and even i3's have dropped to £16k which is not a huge sum of money when the running costs should be minimal...although my colleagues i3 has spent too long in the dealership for me to be entirely happy.
PG

Frank Bullitt wrote:
I did the same thing last week after somebody mentioned the poor residuals on the i3...


There are loads of Leaf's available too and I was quite surprised at how cheap some of them are (even avoiding the battery lease ones with a bargepole). My man-maths could easily justify a cheap electric run about as a way of keeping the XFR long term as the word changes.
Grampa

I would prefer it if it had more of a road car that an SUV stance
PhilD

simonp wrote:
Also, why does it require all those grilles at the front when the Tesla models don't?



CPUs need cooling but I don't know how Tesla does it.  When they took the grill off the S I thought it looked a bit odd but having seen a few now it works fine. If front grills are not functional in the E-World they should go but manufacturers will need to find a new way to  stamp their identity on the vehicle.
Bob Sacamano

PhilD wrote:
simonp wrote:
Also, why does it require all those grilles at the front when the Tesla models don't?



CPUs need cooling but I don't know how Tesla does it.  When they took the grill off the S I thought it looked a bit odd but having seen a few now it works fine. If front grills are not functional in the E-World they should go but manufacturers will need to find a new way to  stamp their identity on the vehicle.


I assumed it was because of this:

Quote:
Power is stored in a 90kWh lithium ion battery pack. The battery uses 36 pouch cells selected for their energy density and thermal performance. They operate at a lower heat, so they can run at a high performance for longer than cylindrical cells.

Jaguar said pouch cells offer excellent future development potential, especially in terms of energy density. This will enable greater range for a given size of battery, or deliver similar range to today but from a smaller, lighter pack.

The pack is liquid-cooled using a dedicated two-mode cooling circuit. In moderate ambient temperatures, the battery improves efficiency by relying only on a radiator to remove the heat generated by the cells. At higher temperatures, a chiller linked to the vehicle’s main air conditioning system provides greater cooling capacity to keep the battery in optimum condition.
PhilD

could be, though not on this pic


gonnabuildabuggy

JohnC wrote:
So the price of this is going to be 10% to 15% more than the equivalent F Pace which presumably makes it about £70K with a few extras.

Just how many people can afford to pay £70K for a car and given the electrical gubbins and its lifespan will anyone buy them when they are 6 or 7 years old?


That's my view on:

1) A lot of modern stuff with so much electronic kit in it that is dating fast (10 yr old Sat Nav anyone).

2) The whole idea of buying an £80K Petrol/Diesel engined car when electric cars will probably evolve a lot in the next 5 to 10 yrs.

One reason for the CX7 posted was that it's old enough not to have much to go wrong. Spending £10K more on an Q5 probably increases rather than reduces the risk of bills.

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
Full Electric cars are still risky things to purchase when it comes to cost of ownership.

A lot of the car funders I deal with refuse to put a residual value into Teslas due to the negative equity involved in anything Electric.


I'm not suprised. My brother leased his Tesla due to the massive depreciation risk.
Tim

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
That's my view on:

1) A lot of modern stuff with so much electronic kit in it that is dating fast (10 yr old Sat Nav anyone).


A brief counterpoint to this:-
My imminently departing 2005 320d has satnav and while it's slightly slow to input info at the start of a journey it's perfectly adequate at giving directions.
So, it's effectively ok unless you try it with the current high-speed, lack of patience consumer mindset in which case it's rubbish.
Still 'does what it says on the tin' though.
Chip Butty

Quote:
Just how many people can afford to pay £70K for a car and given the electrical gubbins and its lifespan will anyone buy them when they are 6 or 7 years old?


1) Not many people pay £70k for any car, they take a PCP or lease. It will either need to be competitive to equivalent spec/performance ICE cars in terms of monthly fee or (more likely) the monthly cost will be offset by the " want one, need one , need to be seen in one " factor.

2) Battery life will therefore not be a concern for the majority of first owners or second owners (who will buy via a manufacturer approved programme on finance). Money saved on " fuel ", servicing, consumables, etc will go some way to offsetting any potential battery issues down stream should you decide to keep it for ever.

3) EU6 diesels will be due some very expensive replacement parts once they pass 5 years - is this really any different to battery life expiring after 8 years (8 years is the target - set by current market leaders Tesla). Just think how much better battery tech will be in 8 years (smaller for given " volume " and power + cheaper). This means you will be able to retrofit the latest battery tech into the earlier cars.

4) Point 3 is only bolloxed if there is a fundamental shift in technology (like a move to Hydrogen fuel cells) - but that's doubtful due to the infrastructure elements. Reality is the world will be multiple fuel sources running concurrently for the next 30 years until the one wins out.
Chip Butty

I should add - I am genuinely surprised and impressed with this.

I am definitely on board with the possibilities of electric power, but the whole SUV hatchy thing is resolutely not my bag.

However - for precisely the reason that this is not my bag, it's obviously an exceptional piece of design on the basis that I quite like it. The level of innovation (battery tech, in house motor design, charging methodology) and manufacturing readiness is very pleasing and non Jag people appear to love it.
gonnabuildabuggy

Tim wrote:
gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
That's my view on:

1) A lot of modern stuff with so much electronic kit in it that is dating fast (10 yr old Sat Nav anyone).


A brief counterpoint to this:-
My imminently departing 2005 320d has satnav and while it's slightly slow to input info at the start of a journey it's perfectly adequate at giving directions.
So, it's effectively ok unless you try it with the current high-speed, lack of patience consumer mindset in which case it's rubbish.
Still 'does what it says on the tin' though.


My 2000 535 had functioning Sat Nav, not sure many people would have lived with it other than you and me though.

As a (humorous) counter point, how much exactly did your state of the art 11 yrs ago 320d cost you?
gonnabuildabuggy

Chip Butty wrote:

3) EU6 diesels will be due some very expensive replacement parts once they pass 5 years - is this really any different to battery life expiring after 8 years (8 years is the target - set by current market leaders Tesla). Just think how much better battery tech will be in 8 years (smaller for given " volume " and power + cheaper). This means you will be able to retrofit the latest battery tech into the earlier cars.


This is a big upside for me, the idea of one known bill albeit a big one, vs the unknown of lots of bills, some small, some potentially massive.

I'd be happy to drive an electric car in terms of bills, alone, it's just the depreciation that puts me off, as it does with petrol/diesel cars.

I posted the CX7 elsewhere, and I'd be interested to know others opinions. Does anyone think it would be a poorer driving experience than a Q5 or just lacking in the latest FG?
JohnC

Chip Butty wrote:

3) EU6 diesels will be due some very expensive replacement parts once they pass 5 years


Is this something I am not aware of or are you talking about the potential need to replace the DPF?
Frank Bullitt

I do like that a lot - the European cycle range is 310 miles, most manufacturers suggest about 20% less is a 'real' range (250 miles) with 80% charge available in 90 minutes, so a 200 mile range with a 90 minute stop - that is pretty close to real-world useable for many people.

As CB says, nobody is going to spend £70k on one - they will be leased and I suspect a high mileage driver would be able to use one with ease - somebody buying a 535d touring (for example...) would probably find this comparable to run.
Giant

I've noticed in the small print Ian Callum says this is the concept, the production model is close but toned down slightly. I hope we're talking TT or Evoque levels of dilution at most.

Still seeing lots of this in it, a favourite of mine:

Tim

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
Tim wrote:
gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
That's my view on:

1) A lot of modern stuff with so much electronic kit in it that is dating fast (10 yr old Sat Nav anyone).


A brief counterpoint to this:-
My imminently departing 2005 320d has satnav and while it's slightly slow to input info at the start of a journey it's perfectly adequate at giving directions.
So, it's effectively ok unless you try it with the current high-speed, lack of patience consumer mindset in which case it's rubbish.
Still 'does what it says on the tin' though.


My 2000 535 had functioning Sat Nav, not sure many people would have lived with it other than you and me though.

As a (humorous) counter point, how much exactly did your state of the art 11 yrs ago 320d cost you?


I take your point but all I mean is that our growing impatience as a race means we won't accept the slow(ish) sat nav from 10 years ago even though it does exactly what we rally want, on those rare occasions, I suspect, that any of us actually need to use it.

The 320 cost me £500, 3 months ago. Not sure what owner number 1 paid for it though.
gonnabuildabuggy

Got to be about £25K at least I'd think?

Is it bog standard?
Frank Bullitt

Tim wrote:
I take your point but all I mean is that our growing impatience as a race means we won't accept the slow(ish) sat nav from 10 years ago even though it does exactly what we rally want, on those rare occasions, I suspect, that any of us actually need to use it.


I have a TomTom Live jobbie that is about 18 months old, despite being the latest tech it is dog-shit slow - takes an age to wake up and then responds to inputs like a 1970's BBC News live-interview from Australia. It works well but in terms of operation your mid-naughties BMW can't be as bad otherwise you would have put our fist through the dashboard by now.
PhilD

Chip Butty wrote:
I should add - I am genuinely surprised and impressed with this.

I am definitely on board with the possibilities of electric power, but the whole SUV hatchy thing is resolutely not my bag.



The power of the Moonboots is strong with this one. If Jag or LR launched a Twizzy you'd hail it as the future of family transport  
Tim

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
Got to be about £25K at least I'd think?

Is it bog standard?


I don't think so, it's an SE (ES?) with leather, sat nav (inc TV function), integrated phone (not there though) and a load liner.
Wasn't sat nav about £2,500 in those days?

Chris, I haven't used the nav but it's available from the moment you get in the car.
In 3 years/70k miles with my Punto HGT I only used the nav properly 3 times.
I haven't used the nav at all in the 370.
Grampa

Giant wrote:
I've noticed in the small print Ian Callum says this is the concept, the production model is close but toned down slightly. I hope we're talking TT or Evoque levels of dilution at most.

Still seeing lots of this in it, a favourite of mine:



Saw that (or possibly one of the earlier incarnations) in the metal once and it was stunning - even better than it looks in photos.
DetmoldDick

Grampa wrote:
Giant wrote:
I've noticed in the small print Ian Callum says this is the concept, the production model is close but toned down slightly. I hope we're talking TT or Evoque levels of dilution at most.

Still seeing lots of this in it, a favourite of mine:



Saw that (or possibly one of the earlier incarnations) in the metal once and it was stunning - even better than it looks in photos.


Looks like an Alfa.
PhilD

Twelfth Monkey wrote:


Shades of C30 about the glasshouse?

.


Electric 5 door C30 is exactly the type of car Volvo should be making.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Ian Callum is a genius. That is all.
PhilD

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Ian Callum is a genius. That is all.


Agree. He did a thing presrnttion/Q&A thingy near me a couple of years ago which I found out about too late. Gutted.

https://youtu.be/sfrK3efd7YE
Big Blue

Looks grotesque.

I can't see how this is any less vile than that Maybach. I laughed out loud at this I-Pace or whatever it's called but not the Maybach.
Stuntman

Big Blue wrote:
Looks grotesque.

I can't see how this is any less vile than that Maybach. I laughed out loud at this I-Pace or whatever it's called but not the Maybach.


I have to say that I totally disagree with you on both points!
Alf McQueef

I'm not 100% sold on that, it's a type shape I generally like, its a little gawky from some angles.

For me, having seen a fair few now, the F Pace is a total triumph - from the back, it really does look like a slightly raised and sporty looking estate/hatch more than an SUV. It makes everything from the LR stable look like a massive box on wheels (I followed one following a new RR Sport the other day) and to my eyes is much nicer than the Maccan, which is the second best looking in the segment...
Martin

I was in the Porsche dealership earlier in the week and had my first proper look around the Macan.  It was a high spec example with full leather, but it was beautifully put together and felt like a really high quality piece of kit.  I've not looked at an F Pace yet, I do think they look smart in the right colour / wheel combination, but it would be to be an awful lot better than an XE to get anywhere near a Macan imo.
gonnabuildabuggy

Martin wrote:
I was in the Porsche dealership earlier in the week and had my first proper look around the Macan.  It was a high spec example with full leather, but it was beautifully put together and felt like a really high quality piece of kit.  I've not looked at an F Pace yet, I do think they look smart in the right colour / wheel combination, but it would be to be an awful lot better than an XE to get anywhere near a Macan imo.


Interesting.

The Q5 is on my FRV replacement short list and beat the Macan in some tests.
Big Blue

Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Forgive my arrogance / stupidity / whatever but this....:



.....would lose a looks competition adjudicated by a panel of blind people who would be forced to avert their Labradors' eyes! My kids had hot wheels cars that looked better a decade ago. Have you all gone mad? Or are you all affected by some Brexit in the water telling you it must be good because it's British?
Martin

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
Martin wrote:
I was in the Porsche dealership earlier in the week and had my first proper look around the Macan.  It was a high spec example with full leather, but it was beautifully put together and felt like a really high quality piece of kit.  I've not looked at an F Pace yet, I do think they look smart in the right colour / wheel combination, but it would be to be an awful lot better than an XE to get anywhere near a Macan imo.


Interesting.

The Q5 is on my FRV replacement short list and beat the Macan in some tests.


The soon to be replaced model?  Looks OK, but the interior felt very dated and a bit basic when I was looking at an SQ5 over 2 years ago.  One of my team has just got a very good deal on an 06 2.0TdI S Line, it's the same monthly payments as his C250d (no options) so he's getting a lot more for his money, but he's not as delighted with it as he thought he would be.
gonnabuildabuggy

Martin wrote:
The soon to be replaced model?  Looks OK, but the interior felt very dated and a bit basic when I was looking at an SQ5 over 2 years ago.  One of my team has just got a very good deal on an 06 2.0TdI S Line, it's the same monthly payments as his C250d (no options) so he's getting a lot more for his money, but he's not as delighted with it as he thought he would be.


Yes, that's the one. If I had the spare cash then an SQ5 would probably be first choice, though part of me is thinking **** it and just buy an older RR or last model X5 (with pano roof and 7 seats) and sod the size issue.

I'm slightly tempted just to get an 06 Plate RR as a stop gap to get it out of my system.

I'm assuming you mean a 16 Q5 not 06 Q5?

I'm tempted to see just what deals exist on a runout, though it's not likely i'd buy new.
Giant

Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Big Blue wrote:
Forgive my arrogance / stupidity / whatever but this....:

.....would lose a looks competition adjudicated by a panel of blind people who would be forced to avert their Labradors' eyes! My kids had hot wheels cars that looked better a decade ago. Have you all gone mad? Or are you all affected by some Brexit in the water telling you it must be good because it's British?


...Time to join Blarno in new car luddite corner?..
Martin

Sorry, yes, it's a 16 plate
PG

Re: Jaguar I-Pace

Big Blue wrote:
Forgive my arrogance / stupidity / whatever..


That's OK. We will. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all.








But you're wrong though........  
Skyhook

I'm a Jag fan but I'm kinda with Big Blue on this.

Why does it have a sil, and another sil on the doors? It's like someone slipped in Photoshop and made a duplicate feature. That and the front end - I don't find it ugly, but they seem to have added in quirks because electric cars have to be a bit different, not because of function.

Plus it's a four by four SUV type thingy, yet they've given it a car like C-pillar and so robbed it of four by four SUV type thingy space and practicality.
Frank Bullitt

Got around to reading the CAR article this month which has an in-depth on the I-Pace (hence the delay, not a new colour from Porsche or BMW) and the article had me salivating, incredible as it was authored by Kacher and didn't involve an Audi or Porsche. Excellent read and I'd really like to see what the tech is like in the metal - I suspect it's scalable too as tech.

Will get myself over to the local launch
PG

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Will get myself over to the local launch


I had a call with the Jag dealer. A £1000 refundable deposit is required to secure a place on the order list. The local dealer has taken two deposits already. That's kind of tempting.....
PhilD

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Got around to reading the CAR article this month which has an in-depth on the I-Pace (hence the delay, not a new colour from Porsche or BMW)


Think we worked that one out! Do miss this sort of stuff front Car of the good old days, does this article suggest it's worth me subscribing?
Frank Bullitt

I'm not sure I'll put a deposit down, perhaps a smaller version would suit me (that electric motor will pull the shed with ease!)

PhilD wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:
Got around to reading the CAR article this month which has an in-depth on the I-Pace (hence the delay, not a new colour from Porsche or BMW)


Think we worked that one out! Do miss this sort of stuff front Car of the good old days, does this article suggest it's worth me subscribing?


I like it, some issues aren't as good of course but this months is fantastic, as was last months.
Big Blue

Frank Bullitt wrote:
I'm not sure I'll put a deposit down


If you left a deposit on the bonnet it would improve the looks ten times over.
Roadrunner

I could be interested. Having had a ride in a Tesla on Saturday (separate thread will be written) I think I have seen the future.

       The Motor Forum Forum Index -> Read All About It
Page 1 of 1
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum