Frank Bullitt
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Honda Civic 2.2CTD-i ESHastenend to add I didn't drive this but was driven around in it for four hours yesterday. An '07 car with some 20K on the clock, the ES drips with FG from every orifice; cruise, climate, glass roof with electric blind, all the airbags etc. etc.
Initially as a front-seat passenger then after picking somebody else up I jumped in the back, just to round the experience off. The things that caught my attention are:
Engine
This one had a strange rattle from the exhaust at certain revs, but generally the diesel is a quiet beast and there didn't seem to be any vibration.
Ride quality
Holy shit, I thought only Audi could stuff-up the damper specification with this level of incompetence. In the front it felt firm and very 'jiggly' but from the back it was a whole new level of annoyance; urban roads and potholes were OK, but on the open road it felt like a pogo-stick with concrete replacing the spring.
Road noise
Above 40mph lots of it. The end.
Handling.
Didn't get a 'feel' for it from the drivers seat but felt very composed indeed as a passenger, roll was kept in check and it generally appeared to hold the road well.
Interior.
The dash is very 'Pac Man', but quite nice; however, the driver noted she couldn't sit comfortably, see all the dials and adjust the wing mirrors to the right place at the same time which led to her missing out on some of the higher instruments.
Interior space is voluminous, the driver was about 6' but even so I sat behind her with room to spare although the lack of space under the front seats (that'll be the fuel tank) means moving your feet is practically impossible - like a Thomas Cook flight then.
It's a bit coal-hole-ish inside; even the glass roof can't overcome a very high scuttle and black trim; the seats are an odd suede-type material which was OK but looked tyred already. The seats do that weird folding thing that Honda introduced with the Jazz; as such the seat base feels thin and after a few hours (with a 10 minute stop every 20 minutes or-so; I was visiting sites) it felt uncomfy in the back.
Overall.
The Civic was on one of those 'if I was looking for that sort of car then I'd definately try one' list, but has now been scratched. I can see the appeal, but it's a compromised beast. Amusingly, the lady we picked up half way round couldn't work out how I'd got in the back, not realising the handles are in the window-frame.
Would I have one? No, not ever. Neither would the lady who owned it if she'd had the choice; her hubby bought it for her when she was 8 months pregnant with their second child without her test-driving it - the MX5 wouldn't have been quite up to the job!
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Interesting. Agree with you on some points and others it seems totally at odds with my experiences of the car - also an ES model. What size wheels was 'yours' on?
Agree about the engine - pulls like a train, is quite revvy for a diesel and certainly more refined than any 4 cylinder unit from VAG.
Wind noise I felt to be ok above 40mph. So much so don't really notice your doing certain slightly illegal speeds.
Tended to find the dampening at higher speeds better than lower speeds but then I haven't sat in the back of one. The steering is a funny one; sometimes its well weighted and accurate, then at other times it leaves you wondering if its attached to anything and doesn't always inspire confidence. At times like that, it din't feel like it was holding the road either.
And I did find the body roll to becomes tiresome after a while.
Agree to an extent about sorting out the seating position - took me a long time to get sorted so I could see everything but you can do it.
Starter button was a pointless feature IMO too.
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Frank Bullitt
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The wheels were the standard 5-spokes, 16" from memory.
Odd how you felt it rolled, where as I thought it didn't and our ideas on ride quality are almost diometrically opposed! Were you in the car on your own as we were 3-up for most of the journey?
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Gooner
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You think the ES spec is loaded? My EX came with standard sat-nav - something only the seen in the S-class/7 series/ A8 class of cars. It also came with 17" wheels and I found the ride was jittery also so it's no better. I drove 25k miles in one of these last year and tbh the road noise is no better in the Focus which leads this sector so don't be too quick to lambast Honda for this. I agree though that the suspension set-up is flawed as they have done a great job to get it to handle well, but they have battled against the limitations of the torsion beam axle and it shows.
I'd still have another though as it's generally a good car, but I can understand it being an acquired taste!
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PR
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My experience corresponds exactly to that of FB, as I've only been a passenger in what sounds like an identical car and drew pretty much the same conclusions.
Not a car for me.
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| Frank Bullitt wrote: | The wheels were the standard 5-spokes, 16" from memory.
Odd how you felt it rolled, where as I thought it didn't and our ideas on ride quality are almost diometrically opposed! Were you in the car on your own as we were 3-up for most of the journey? |
Just me and one passenger, empty boot.
Could easily be tyre pressure differences affecting it all never mind the quality of the roads - Devon roads really are obysmal, very pittied, rutted and potholed.
I quite like the car - can see why you wouldn't want to own one and I agree on that score - I wouldn't buy one with my own money.
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PG
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With the Swindon closure for months now you do wonder if they got it wrong with the Civic and Honda are paying the price?
Imagine that Civic with a less space invaders interior, a less avant garde shape, decent handling plus decent ride and I think they would have sold a load more.
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PR
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| PG wrote: | With the Swindon closure for months now you do wonder if they got it wrong with the Civic and Honda are paying the price?
Imagine that Civic with a less space invaders interior, a less avant garde shape, decent handling plus decent ride and I think they would have sold a load more. |
I think Honda was probably damned if it did and damned if it didn't.
If the Civic had been another drearily anonymous box, the traditional pensioner market would have been happy and nobody under the age of 60 would have bought one.
As it happened, Honda elected to risk alienating its wrinkly customers with a daring design aimed at a younger audience, and it must have had some success in that respect. My thirty-something boss swapped her MINI Cooper for one, which I doubt she would have done for the previous Civic.
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BeN
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I suppose Honda's image and their target demographic is different over there than here.
Over here, there are two kinds of Honda buyers. The first ones are the Jap loyalists. They'll buy anything from Toyota or Honda, as long as it has four doors and a boot. To them, reliability and value comes before all else.
The second type of Honda buyer are the young punks, intrigued by their sporty Type-R models. I suspect this group will be slowly alienated going by Honda's recent cost-cutting measures in their sporting department.
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Its no different here Ben!
The people whom fit into your first 'segment' are the older generations who want something with four doors, a boot and reliabilty.
I see alot of Civics on the road now - not sure how many are private buys though. They are very appealing, it would seem, on company lease car lists.
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BeN
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But it does seem that there are quite a fair few number of younger Honda buyers simply based on their sporty image, certainly a lot more than the other Japanese manufacturers, with the exception of Subaru.
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Frank Bullitt
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| PR wrote: | | PG wrote: | With the Swindon closure for months now you do wonder if they got it wrong with the Civic and Honda are paying the price?
Imagine that Civic with a less space invaders interior, a less avant garde shape, decent handling plus decent ride and I think they would have sold a load more. |
I think Honda was probably damned if it did and damned if it didn't.
If the Civic had been another drearily anonymous box, the traditional pensioner market would have been happy and nobody under the age of 60 would have bought one.
As it happened, Honda elected to risk alienating its wrinkly customers with a daring design aimed at a younger audience, and it must have had some success in that respect. My thirty-something boss swapped her MINI Cooper for one, which I doubt she would have done for the previous Civic. |
Honda's traditional Civic buyers are all saving themselves a few quid and buying the Jazz instead; a car that is actually bigger than the Civic inside (comparrison gained from my own Dad's Jazz) and meets the 'old fogie' brief down to a tee, also gaining new Honda buyers at the same time.
I thought the Civic was doing a fair job of attracting new customers - my Uncle bought a Civic based upon the looks alone (1.8 SE) and I know a fair few people like the look of them - indeed I do, but it seems to be the only redeming feature, the problem which is that when poking the fire you don't get the chance to look at the mantlepiece...
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Gooner
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My mum has a Jazz mk1 (mk2 if we're counting the 80's version) and I can assure you the Civic is bigger inside. Can't say whether that's true of the new Jazz. Saying that Honda are paying the price for a daring design is a theory you could make if you haven't left the house for a few years. There are loads of them on UK roads so sales up to 2008 were not a problem. The closedown of the factory isn't just due to a slowdown in Civic sales, the factory also makes the CR-V which as an SUV is in an even bigger sea of doo-doo right now and tbh has looks that are far more questionable than the Civic - that round rear 3/4 window just ain't right! Compare how many mk2 CR-Vs you see compared to mk3 and you see what I mean. Plus the mk2 wasn't competing with the new Freelander, a car that has rendered Fords release of the Kuga a pointless exercise. The factory will be building at a much higher capacity once they get the Jazz, it's just taken a while to restructure the production lines in the wake of such a fast change in economic circumstance.
I personally think that, whilst not to everyones taste and having some odd detailing, the current euro Civic is a belting design and it's not just the looks it has going for it. Doing 25k miles in one makes you appreciate the reliability, refinement of the 1.8vtec compared to petrol Focus, Golf, Astra and Mazda 3's that I've tried, plus a great kit-count. If Ford offered the Civics dash as an option I would have bitten their arm off for it. Once you use it on a daily basis it works excellently and is much more logical than the scattered look suggests at first. Plus it makes regular dashes look boring, no matter how good the materials of the mk6 Golf are. Sorry if I'm going overboard here, I just think some of you have been very over critical of the cars talents although Honda have done their best to mask them.
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Frank Bullitt
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| Gooner wrote: | | My mum has a Jazz mk1 (mk2 if we're counting the 80's version) and I can assure you the Civic is bigger inside. |
Interesting. I can assure you it's not!
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Roadrunner
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My sister-in-law has a Jazz mkI / mkII and my father-in-law has a previous model Civic. That Civic is larger inside than the Jazz, but I have not seen inside the current Civic.
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Bob Sacramento
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When my mother (age 67) was looking for new car she specifically ruled out the Honda Jazz - stating quite firmly that it was a car for old women and there were 14 of them in her golf club car park. She bought a MINI Cooper instead.
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Gooner
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| Frank Bullitt wrote: | | Gooner wrote: | | My mum has a Jazz mk1 (mk2 if we're counting the 80's version) and I can assure you the Civic is bigger inside. |
Interesting. I can assure you it's not! |
Rubbish, the civic is bigger. I'll admit it's marginal but it is definately bigger. The laws of physics state so if nothing else! The Civic also benefits from length. Putting all the seats down and folding the passenger seat right back, I easily fitted a wardrobe in there.
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Frank Bullitt
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| Gooner wrote: | | Frank Bullitt wrote: | | Gooner wrote: | | My mum has a Jazz mk1 (mk2 if we're counting the 80's version) and I can assure you the Civic is bigger inside. |
Interesting. I can assure you it's not! |
Rubbish, the civic is bigger. I'll admit it's marginal but it is definately bigger. The laws of physics state so if nothing else! The Civic also benefits from length. Putting all the seats down and folding the passenger seat right back, I easily fitted a wardrobe in there. |
You're wrong 
The evidence, m'lud:
Sat behind the 6' driver in the Civic there was just enough space for me to have a bit of free room - the passengers seat, which I had set for me (6'4") meant I couldn't sit on that side.
Sit behind my Dad (6'2") in his Jazz - no drama at all.
The Civic is a bigger car, but the styling impacts on the overall space possible compared to the bigger glasshouse on the Jazz; don't forget the Civic is designed to take a 2.2 pig-iron special, where as the Jazz only needs to take a 1.5 engine (not available in the UK); the Civic's extra space is in the front and the elongated boot. Dunno how they compare on boot size, I didn't check them. The Jazz does have more of a 'sit up' seating position in back and front whioch may help.
Granted, the Civic is very good in terms of space and well-ahead of the competition, but the Jazz is actually slightly bigger inside.
Life is full of grey rather than black and white, but on this one I teleth the trutheth. Fact.
As for laws of physics mean bigger = bigger, I give you the Peugeot 407; it's massive but there is no way I can get in the back of one if somebody over about 5'11" is in the front; the packaging for a family car is awful (and worse than the smaller 406 it replaced)
In conclusion, the Jazz is a clever little fucker, if rather dull.
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Gooner
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I'll agree to disagree as I'm at my parents and I looked at my mums Jazz again and going on my memory of the Civic it's far too close to call. The Civic does have a tiny engine bay though. When you look at a Golf or Focus that need to fit in a 3.2 V6 and a 2.5 I5 respectively, there's no way either lump would get even close to fitting beneath the Civics bonnet! I reckon your right about passenger space and the Jazz looks marginally bigger, but the Civic trounces it on boot space due to it's hidden floor (missing spare wheel well to those who ignore press material).
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