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Racing Teatray

Hell in a handcart

Worth a watch: http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presen...r-rudds-speech-echoes-mein-kampf/

I see Marine Le Pen praised Darth May's speech today as well.
Michael

This isn't what I voted for.
JohnC

Michael wrote:
This isn't what I voted for.


In which vote: the General Election or the Referendum?

Increased tension between people of different nationalities within the UK was always going to be a consequence of the leave vote.
Martin

JohnC wrote:
Michael wrote:
This isn't what I voted for.


In which vote: the General Election or the Referendum?

Increased tension between people of different nationalities within the UK was always going to be a consequence of the leave vote.


Based on what I'm seeing, it's getting worse.  We're increasing our core headcount and despite it meaning a 20% increase in hourly rate plus guaranteed hours and all the other benefits of not working for an agency, 30-40% of people asked have said they don't want to move over with the biggest reasons being they're planning to go home or to work in Germany.  Agency attrition is around 60 people a week, so we have to find that number of new people just to stand still.

It's a huge struggle getting agency workers in for peak, we're already paying for buses and will shortly be adding £1 / hour, but it's still tough.  We need to find, induct and get over 500 people in the next 6 weeks.
Bob Sacamano

Re: Hell in a handcart

Racing Teatray wrote:
Worth a watch: http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presen...r-rudds-speech-echoes-mein-kampf/

I see Marine Le Pen praised Darth May's speech today as well.


It appears Godwin's Law doesn't only apply to internet forums.
Michael

JohnC wrote:
Michael wrote:
This isn't what I voted for.


In which vote: the General Election or the Referendum?

Increased tension between people of different nationalities within the UK was always going to be a consequence of the leave vote.


General election. I know we don't vote for Prime Ministers in this country but we do vote on a manifesto and this looks little like the one set out in 2015.
JohnC

Martin wrote:
It's a huge struggle getting agency workers in for peak, we're already paying for buses and will shortly be adding £1 / hour, but it's still tough.  We need to find, induct and get over 500 people in the next 6 weeks.



There must surely be tens of thousands who voted to get rid of the EC immigrants who were taking their jobs who will now be delighted to get the opportunity to work again.
Martin

Yes, we had 9 of them in for their induction on Monday and haven't seen them since. After a bit of digging, we discovered they were just here to keep their benefits......  

We had an advert out all last week and had kept it as open as possible (offering permanent work, fixed terms contracts, flexible working, part time) and had 6 applicants.  

Just another 494 to find then
Bob Sacamano

Supply and demand. Mass import of labour has depressed wages to a level where, unless you're single and prepared to live 4 to a room in rented accommodation, it's not financially viable. Couple this with an inflexible benefits system designed to make it as difficult as possible to get off it and we arrive at the ridiculous situation we have today.
Frank Bullitt

We are starting to see a drying-up of European nurses in particular with a number (including those employed rather than agency) having now moved elsewhere - it's a small number now, but I suspect as the Brexit negotiations continue and free movemement of people is discussed in divisive terminology I can't see it getting better especially as the ConDem government slashed both nurse and doctor training places so we have at least half-generation to catch up (assuming either is considered an attractive career)..

I find the language dangerous and unhelpful to UK plc, I feel very uncomfortable posting this but if Amber Rudd is keen to have 'non-citizens' marked out, history has given her a way to do it;



Agree with Bob, there is an issue with the benefits system which Universal Credit was supposed to overcome but I don't think it has.
Big Blue

The benefits vs pay issue is the crux of imported labour in the current market. One has driven down pay to the extent the other is a viable financial alternative to having to get out of bed in the morning. As to the issue of living 4 to a room to make paid work make sense, we're only 2 generations from when that was the norm for British working class households. 3-4 generations ago men flocked to war because for many it was a better option than home. The rise in the expectation of the standard of living and indeed the actual rise in the standard of living means unskilled tasks will always rely on cheap labour. If we can't import it the benefit system will become such that erstwhile claimants are effectively forced into work.

We had serfdom, a slave trade, an Empire, a Commonwealth and then an EU to deal with the cheap labour issue over the course of time. Anyone that imagines closing our labour market to outsiders is a solution is a pretty poor student of history and just unaware of reality.
gonnabuildabuggy

Shitty times.

Those who voted Brexit need to have a long hard look at themselves and what they are bringing about.
JohnC

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Agree with Bob, there is an issue with the benefits system which Universal Credit was supposed to overcome but I don't think it has.


Unless the benefits system creates a desire/requirement to work to become better off, there is little incentive to leave it.

As for the Polish lady I have working for me, she is seriously hardworking, appreciative of what she gets and highly intelligent. She has been in the UK for over 7 years with her family but she feels torn with Brexit because she doesn't want to be forced to choose between Poland and the UK even though she is happy here and better off. She hasn't come out and said it directly but reading between the lines, I reckon that if she was forced to choose, she would go back to Poland: prior to her I had 3 short term British employees in her position who didn't work half as hard, weren't half as good as they sold themselves to be and just weren't sufficiently competent. One good thing about current legislation is that I could move them on without any hassle.
Bob Sacamano

Big Blue wrote:
The benefits vs pay issue is the crux of imported labour in the current market. One has driven down pay to the extent the other is a viable financial alternative to having to get out of bed in the morning. As to the issue of living 4 to a room to make paid work make sense, we're only 2 generations from when that was the norm for British working class .


Why do we want to go back to that?

These companies like Sports Direct whinging because they can't get 200 Romanians to pick and pack shorts and socks in their warehouse need to take a long hard look at themselves. Germany deals with labour shortages by upping automation and building a high wage economy, but that involves long term capital investment and doesn't sit well with the short-term quarterly profits focus on UK PLCs.

Anyway, despite the fear-mongering in the press and the Mein Kampf quotes, if the skilled labour is required, the skilled labour will be imported - from wherever in the World.
Big Blue

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Germany deals with labour shortages by upping automation and building a high wage economy, but that involves long term capital investment and doesn't sit well with the short-term quarterly profits focus on UK PLCs.


Ah now you're talking my language. (although I'll point out that adidas, a large German company, relies heavily on ultra-low-paid young labour to manufacture its product: that they have automated packing doesn't really change that). However small local businesses in the UK are often over-priced as the owners often seek the route to the earliest retirement by charging more with the assurance to an element of their clientele that "all our blokes is British". In Europe many tasks are carried out by skilled local workers but you don't feel the need to ask a Slav/Polak to do it as the local guy isn't trying to turn your wallet inside out to do a job that if you had the time and/or inclination you could do yourself.

If anyone needs an example of lack of profits returned to investment in modernisation and product development driving a UK industry to the ground, let's look at the motorcycle industry that ruled the world for 4 decades, derided the arrival of Japanese machines, refused to change their product offerings and then just disappeared.

But then let's look at the labour market in the UK over a century or so. Having gained improvements in working conditions, terms and safety the labour market became too expensive and led to a flood of work being moved abroad and an influx of imported labour. At various points this has been turned around (UK car factories are still the most efficient in terms of output in the EU, they're just owned by manufacturers that are not British) and it will be again. Politicians have long yearned to break the cycles of the economic state of flux (Gordon's "no more boom-bust" which led to the biggest bust being a nice easy example) but they can't, in the same way they can't control the changes in technology and industry.

But fear not: One day everything will be made from reconstituted plums and the UK will be a world leader - if I remember from school, plums were the thing the UK was self-sufficient in during the war years.
Bob Sacamano

Until we break the Management bonus linked to profits mindset nothing will improve.
Big Blue

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Until we break the Management bonus linked to profits mindset nothing will improve.


Agreed. Worse still I once had a contract with a firm that paid bonuses on REVENUE increase. That was just bollocks of the highest order.
Michael

Quick head count in my department suggests 20% of those employed are foreign born. It's a Government agency. Just been on a call with one Dutch colleague who is upset about the whole thing and worried she's going to be be booted out the country. Shocking state of affairs, really.
Bob Sacamano

Michael wrote:
Quick head count in my department suggests 20% of those employed are foreign born. It's a Government agency. Just been on a call with one Dutch colleague who is upset about the whole thing and worried she's going to be be booted out the country. Shocking state of affairs, really.


Really? An educated person worried there's going to be some sort of round up and mass deportation?
Michael

An educated person feeling vulnerable about their future given the uncertainty that's been created. Understandable, don't you think?
Bob Sacamano

Michael wrote:
An educated person feeling vulnerable about their future given the uncertainty that's been created. Understandable, don't you think?


I would think sitting down with a cup of tea and thinking about it logically could help. The UK is not going to deport people and neither is the EU going to do the same to UK citizens working there. I thought I'd seen the last of this scaremongering from the Remainers but it's being ramped up again. I voted to Remain but I'm beginning to regret the company I was keeping now.
Boxer6

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Michael wrote:
Quick head count in my department suggests 20% of those employed are foreign born. It's a Government agency. Just been on a call with one Dutch colleague who is upset about the whole thing and worried she's going to be be booted out the country. Shocking state of affairs, really.


Really? An educated person worried there's going to be some sort of round up and mass deportation?


Given recent announcements and comments from various politicians, why would she not worry?
Michael

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Michael wrote:
An educated person feeling vulnerable about their future given the uncertainty that's been created. Understandable, don't you think?


I would think sitting down with a cup of tea and thinking about it logically could help. The UK is not going to deport people and neither is the EU going to do the same to UK citizens working there. I thought I'd seen the last of this scaremongering from the Remainers but it's being ramped up again. I voted to Remain but I'm beginning to regret the company I was keeping now.


I can't imagine how she feels. I can appreciate she feels marginalised, you don't need to sit down with a cup of tea to appreciate that. Looking at it logically will take you only so far when her rights to remain in this country haven't been guaranteed by the government.
Boxer6

Frank Bullitt wrote:

Agree with Bob, there is an issue with the benefits system which Universal Credit was supposed to overcome but I don't think it has.


UC hasn't worked anywhere it's been trialled from what little I've read; however fairly reliable information from someone I know who works for the DWP suggests it's a complete farce, mostly as a result of its' fucked IT system.

On a more practical note, I reckon a substantial percentage of benefit recipients would spend much more of their benefit income on decent food, clothes etc (and, OK, cigarettes, booze and the like too, before anyone says anything!) before rent, utilities and so on.

A couple of housing officers of my acquaintance were ecstatic when they heard UC wasn't coming to Glasgow, at least for a few years; it gives them more tie to come up with a strategy to cope with what they anticipate to be huge arrears in rent income.
Racing Teatray

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Michael wrote:
An educated person feeling vulnerable about their future given the uncertainty that's been created. Understandable, don't you think?


I would think sitting down with a cup of tea and thinking about it logically could help. The UK is not going to deport people and neither is the EU going to do the same to UK citizens working there. I thought I'd seen the last of this scaremongering from the Remainers but it's being ramped up again. I voted to Remain but I'm beginning to regret the company I was keeping now.


It's not scaremongering - it's healthy democracy. Only 2% less of the population voted for this shit than voted for it. And nearly 45% didn't vote at all The way people bang on, you'd imagine it had been landslide victory on a scale to make North Korea sit up and take note. The Brexit tendency moaned, whinged and yes scaremongered for 40 years after losing the last referendum on this topic. It hasn't yet been 40 weeks since the June result.

The government is there to govern for everyone - not just those that agree with it. And when it does or says stupid or dangerous things, it is our civic duty to call them on it. History tells us that not doing so leads to bad things irrespective of trite comments about Godwin's Laws.

Educated people feel vulnerable because they fear the government (a) hasn't a clue what to do and (b) is playing with fire in its attempt to court what it has decided is the "popular vote". It doesn't auger well for the future.

People who might be termed foreign (which in some villages means anyone who hasn't lived there for at least two full generations and don't argue with that assertion, because I have direct personal experience of it) also feel vulnerable because the government is publically making statements that appear designed to make them feel uncomfortable or which at the very least sacrifice their sense of security in order to pander to the UKIP tendency.

Hell, even Arron Banks said on Newsnight that the Tories were turning into UKIP.
Frank Bullitt

Racing Teatray wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Michael wrote:
An educated person feeling vulnerable about their future given the uncertainty that's been created. Understandable, don't you think?


I would think sitting down with a cup of tea and thinking about it logically could help. The UK is not going to deport people and neither is the EU going to do the same to UK citizens working there. I thought I'd seen the last of this scaremongering from the Remainers but it's being ramped up again. I voted to Remain but I'm beginning to regret the company I was keeping now.


It's not scaremongering - it's healthy democracy. Only 2% less of the population voted for this shit than voted for it. And nearly 45% didn't vote at all The way people bang on, you'd imagine it had been landslide victory on a scale to make North Korea sit up and take note. The Brexit tendency moaned, whinged and yes scaremongered for 40 years after losing the last referendum on this topic. It hasn't yet been 40 weeks since the June result.

The government is there to govern for everyone - not just those that agree with it. And when it does or says stupid or dangerous things, it is our civic duty to call them on it. History tells us that not doing so leads to bad things irrespective of trite comments about Godwin's Laws.

Educated people feel vulnerable because they fear the government (a) hasn't a clue what to do and (b) is playing with fire in its attempt to court what it has decided is the "popular vote". It doesn't auger well for the future.

People who might be termed foreign (which in some villages means anyone who hasn't lived there for at least two full generations and don't argue with that assertion, because I have direct personal experience of it) also feel vulnerable because the government is publically making statements that appear designed to make them feel uncomfortable or which at the very least sacrifice their sense of security in order to pander to the UKIP tendency.

Hell, even Arron Banks said on Newsnight that the Tories were turning into UKIP.


+1

The people I know who feel vulnerable are intelligent and perfectly capable of rational thought but they do so a ramping up of the 'them' mentality with obvious historical references - I don't believe any feel there is a chance that EU citizens will be booted out, rather 'they' will never really be 'in'

Johnny's comment about the 40 years of whining from the Brexiteers is spot-on, with everything from the Red Tape to the size of Banana's
Big Blue

I too am concerned at the language that came from conference this week. The trouble is the election results showed that it was Labour constituencies that suffered most at the hands of UKIP so to pander to those Labour voters the Tories have to adopt a UKIP-esque stance.
Bob Sacamano

I'm not sure what goes down in some of your southern villages but it sounds disconcerting..

I've also noticed another dangerous trend that seems to go unchallenged; in any discussion around immigration it's made that anyone with an objection to a complete open door policy is blaming or scapegoating immigrants for all the country's problems, and that by restricting numbers of unskilled immigrants, and having the ability to either turn away or deport criminal elements will result in banning foreign doctors and countless of people that have made a huge positive impact in this country, when that's clearly not the case. It's a dangerous narrative that's right up there with anything you'd read in The Sun, but hey it's not stupid if it's the regressive left using double standards.
Frank Bullitt

Appealing to the labour voters who are pro-UKIP is easily solved, ditch Austerity (...tick...) and stop telling everyone that everything they have is shit due to a 'pressure on services' and there is an unchecked 'rise in migration' - be honest that a Political rather than economic decision was made to reduce public expenditure.

Bob Sacamano wrote:
I'm not sure what goes down in some of your southern villages but it sounds disconcerting.


Perhaps we know Eastern Europeans who aren't plumbers undercutting locals on minimum wage and see the benefit of a motivated skilled workforce who want to make the UK their home rather than shack-up with a dozen other Poles in a 2-bed terrace?

Anyway, I'm not in the South, I'm in the East which has a large Eastern European population.

EDIT; next 'they' will all be trying to take 'our' women.
Big Blue

I must say W2.0 is decidedly skilled, and holds a job and is remunerated accordingly. She is mainly upset about the Brexit vote as she feels tarred with a brush that should actually be used to tar many of the indigenous population. I still need to understand why it's unacceptable for the UK's younger, single generation to move to where there's work and live in crowded conditions, earn some money and then develop into a life elsewhere later on using the money they've earned in that period when "Eastern Europeans" and others can do it in a foreign country. As W2.0 reminds me when I talk of retiring abroad "In case you hadn't noticed, I already live abroad."

Quote:
EDIT; next 'they' will all be trying to take 'our' women.


or men
Bob Sacamano

Frank Bullitt wrote:


Bob Sacamano wrote:
I'm not sure what goes down in some of your southern villages but it sounds disconcerting.


Perhaps we know Eastern Europeans who aren't plumbers undercutting locals on minimum wage and see the benefit of a motivated skilled workforce who want to make the UK their home rather than shack-up with a dozen other Poles in a 2-bed terrace?

Anyway, I'm not in the South, I'm in the East which has a large Eastern European population.

EDIT; next 'they' will all be trying to take 'our' women.


I was referring to Racing's comment about being an outsider in his village.
Racing Teatray

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:


Bob Sacamano wrote:
I'm not sure what goes down in some of your southern villages but it sounds disconcerting.


Perhaps we know Eastern Europeans who aren't plumbers undercutting locals on minimum wage and see the benefit of a motivated skilled workforce who want to make the UK their home rather than shack-up with a dozen other Poles in a 2-bed terrace?

Anyway, I'm not in the South, I'm in the East which has a large Eastern European population.

EDIT; next 'they' will all be trying to take 'our' women.


I was referring to Racing's comment about being an outsider in his village.


Which is also in the East.
Big Blue

Just to spice the debate up, headline of "objectionable twat gets punched in the head"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2...-woolfe--in-serious-condition-af/
Racing Teatray

Fairly striking image here: http://metro.co.uk/2016/10/06/uki...s-at-european-parliament-6175325/

I hope he is ok, regardless. No doubt we will soon learn who the even more objectionable Ukipper was who lamped him.
Bob Sacamano

Racing Teatray wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:


Bob Sacamano wrote:
I'm not sure what goes down in some of your southern villages but it sounds disconcerting.


Perhaps we know Eastern Europeans who aren't plumbers undercutting locals on minimum wage and see the benefit of a motivated skilled workforce who want to make the UK their home rather than shack-up with a dozen other Poles in a 2-bed terrace?

Anyway, I'm not in the South, I'm in the East which has a large Eastern European population.

EDIT; next 'they' will all be trying to take 'our' women.


I was referring to Racing's comment about being an outsider in his village.


Which is also in the East.


Anything south of Sheffield is South.

God knows what's gone on with the UKIP goons. It's a shame politics can't be discussed without violence. I was going to say it makes us look bad to the Europeans and then I remembered where it took place.
Racing Teatray

I thought the Watford Gap was generally considered the dividing line...and we are about level with that. So I consider that neither north nor south. And firmly Danelaw rather than Wessex, since my mother's maiden name is distinctively old Norse.
Frank Bullitt

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:


Bob Sacamano wrote:
I'm not sure what goes down in some of your southern villages but it sounds disconcerting.


Perhaps we know Eastern Europeans who aren't plumbers undercutting locals on minimum wage and see the benefit of a motivated skilled workforce who want to make the UK their home rather than shack-up with a dozen other Poles in a 2-bed terrace?

Anyway, I'm not in the South, I'm in the East which has a large Eastern European population.

EDIT; next 'they' will all be trying to take 'our' women.


I was referring to Racing's comment about being an outsider in his village.


Which is also in the East.


Anything south of Sheffield is South.

God knows what's gone on with the UKIP goons. It's a shame politics can't be discussed without violence. I was going to say it makes us look bad to the Europeans and then I remembered where it took place.


Just as some slob of humanity with an England Shirt on fighting with a South American waste of organs in a European-hosted World Cup would be Europe's fault.

I go back to the earlier comment about blaming everything on Europe for the past 40 years.

I hope UKIP chappie is fine and that the Doctor looking after him is French, otherwise it might just get messy.
Nice Guy Eddie

Bloody hell, don't we all get our knickers in a twist.

I like James O'Brien but that's some serious waffle.
Racing Teatray

I liked this remark seen on social media:

"The overwhelming sense that the Titanic has just crashed into an iceberg, and everyone started cheering"
Bob Sacamano

Racing Teatray wrote:
I liked this remark seen on social media:

"The overwhelming sense that the Titanic has just crashed into an iceberg, and everyone started cheering"


The Titanic keeps coming up in this debate. The one I saw related to demands for a second referendum and the comment was; "we're in the lifeboat and paddling away and these idiots want to get back on the Titanic".
boc70

Bob Sacamano wrote:

The Titanic keeps coming up


If only the Titanic had demonstrated those properties on the first place...
Bob Sacamano

boc70 wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:

The Titanic keeps coming up


If only the Titanic had demonstrated those properties on the first place...


Bobbed up?
Racing Teatray

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
I liked this remark seen on social media:

"The overwhelming sense that the Titanic has just crashed into an iceberg, and everyone started cheering"


The Titanic keeps coming up in this debate. The one I saw related to demands for a second referendum and the comment was; "we're in the lifeboat and paddling away and these idiots want to get back on the Titanic".


Surely the correct Titanic analogy would be: "we deliberately steered our otherwise fully-functioning and state-of-the-art ocean liner into an iceberg on the basis that it couldn't be any worse than it already had been for those down in steerage, cheered wildly as it sank, then got out into some tiny inadequate lifeboats and paddled off into the freezing wastes of the North Atlantic in search of a brighter future for all, ignoring the fate of those who disagree".

It's so extraordinarily nuts that you almost have to pinch yourself to remind yourself that it isn't just all an especially bad dream.
gonnabuildabuggy

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Michael wrote:
An educated person feeling vulnerable about their future given the uncertainty that's been created. Understandable, don't you think?


I would think sitting down with a cup of tea and thinking about it logically could help. The UK is not going to deport people and neither is the EU going to do the same to UK citizens working there. I thought I'd seen the last of this scaremongering from the Remainers but it's being ramped up again. I voted to Remain but I'm beginning to regret the company I was keeping now.


Logic doesn't come into it.

Logic wasn't the reason a Polish guy was beaten to death in Hitchin.

If the signs around you start telling you you are unwanted, whether you are or not, you'll feel that way.

How many of us have felt that we're not appreciated by our employers only to find out later (usually when we resign or threaten to leave) that actually we're appreciated but nobody thought to mention it?

On the up side, Amber Rudd's speech has been derided widely throughout the press and business world so hopefully this stupid idea will go away.

Britain needs to be fairer, I've no doubt....but that means increasing wages AND decreasing benefits (or ensuring benefits stop growing so the gap shrinks).

On the downside, I've yet to see any form of cohesive plan over Brexit.
gonnabuildabuggy

Bob Sacamano wrote:
I'm not sure what goes down in some of your southern villages but it sounds disconcerting..

I've also noticed another dangerous trend that seems to go unchallenged; in any discussion around immigration it's made that anyone with an objection to a complete open door policy is blaming or scapegoating immigrants for all the country's problems, and that by restricting numbers of unskilled immigrants, and having the ability to either turn away or deport criminal elements will result in banning foreign doctors and countless of people that have made a huge positive impact in this country, when that's clearly not the case. It's a dangerous narrative that's right up there with anything you'd read in The Sun, but hey it's not stupid if it's the regressive left using double standards.


Bob, you're right.

But the problem is the "perception" thing. Far too many people treat migrants as one and the same, no matter what their skill level (how many people whinge about Foreign Doctors as if we've a pool of British Doctors all sitting at home unable to work).

Skilled migrants will still be needed but the question is will they want to come?

One reason we've a high level of immigrants at all skill levels is that we have been a welcoming and open country.

As per other posts, I'm agreeing stuff needs fixing but too many people have seen a 48/52 vote as vindication of their far right beliefs.

We are all equal in this world, as far as I'm concerned but too many people for my liking believe they are better than others due to the birth place, colour, education, car they drive, house,  etc.
Nice Guy Eddie

Wow Sounds like we're describing the EU as the Polaris of a union. WTF, we might not like the thought of Brexit but the EU is far from state of the art.
Giant

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
We are all equal in this world, as far as I'm concerned but too many people for my liking believe they are better than others due to the birth place, colour, education, car they drive, house,  etc.


This belief has been deliberately encouraged in recent years by the government IMO, turning each 'group' against others. Hardly surprising we are now where we are.
Frank Bullitt

The chap was murdered in Harlow, GBB, not 'Itchin. Polish Policehave been brought in to help calm tensions in the town, working with local 5-0 - it's a shameful indictment in afraid.

Giant wrote:
gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
We are all equal in this world, as far as I'm concerned but too many people for my liking believe they are better than others due to the birth place, colour, education, car they drive, house,  etc.


This belief has been deliberately encouraged in recent years by the government IMO, turning each 'group' against others. Hardly surprising we are now where we are.


Agreed, and I am getting a sense of there now being a bit of a 'free for all' and that decency and respect take a back seat to an individual's 'right' to spout vitriol, and that is wider than only one group - can't remember the last time the 'N'-word was scrawled in a cars paintwork but it happened in my town the other night, with other equally unpleasant things written on other family members cars - it's an extension of certain things being perceived as acceptable and the removal of the 'decency' barrier. One of my trade staff made a derogatory comment (racist?) not that long ago and when challenged his response was 'well, Britain is being returned to the British' - he has received a written warning, he probably had similar thoughts before but now feels vindicated to make his views more open.
Big Blue

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
We are all equal in this world, as far as I'm concerned but too many people for my liking believe they are better than others due to the birth place, colour, education, car they drive, house,  etc.


This is far too subjective. A religious leader that promotes their culture of demeaning women, rejecting social mobility and eschewing modernity will think they're better than me as their religion says they are whereas I am of the opinion their fear of women and their refusal to advance mankind makes them a sub-species lower than most other mammals.
JohnC

In so many ways the Great Britain of the past 30 or 40 years seems hell bent on dragging everyone down to the lowest level instead of making people aspire to reach for the sky.
Racing Teatray

JohnC wrote:
In so many ways the Great Britain of the past 30 or 40 years seems hell bent on dragging everyone down to the lowest level instead of making people aspire to reach for the sky.


Isn't that the antithesis of Thatcherism and Blairism (now so out of vogue)?
Big Blue

JohnC wrote:
In so many ways the Great Britain of the past 30 or 40 years seems hell bent on dragging everyone down to the lowest level instead of making people aspire to reach for the sky.


No reason for it to not follow the education system.
Scouse

JohnC wrote:
In so many ways the Great Britain of the past 30 or 40 years seems hell bent on dragging everyone down to the lowest level instead of making people aspire to reach for the sky.


+1
Roadsterstu

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
Shitty times.

Those who voted Brexit need to have a long hard look at themselves and what they are bringing about.


Rather simplistic and perhaps an easy way to lay "blame"?
Bob Sacamano

Racing Teatray wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
I liked this remark seen on social media:

"The overwhelming sense that the Titanic has just crashed into an iceberg, and everyone started cheering"


The Titanic keeps coming up in this debate. The one I saw related to demands for a second referendum and the comment was; "we're in the lifeboat and paddling away and these idiots want to get back on the Titanic".


Surely the correct Titanic analogy would be: "we deliberately steered our otherwise fully-functioning and state-of-the-art ocean liner into an iceberg on the basis that it couldn't be any worse than it already had been for those down in steerage, cheered wildly as it sank, then got out into some tiny inadequate lifeboats and paddled off into the freezing wastes of the North Atlantic in search of a brighter future for all, ignoring the fate of those who disagree".

It's so extraordinarily nuts that you almost have to pinch yourself to remind yourself that it isn't just all an especially bad dream.


Only the most enthusiastic supporter of The European Project could possibly describe the leaking and listing ship of Strasbourg as a state-of-the-art ocean liner. It did make me laugh though!

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