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Big Blue

Finally made it to print...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2...ath-hearing-hillsborough-tragedy/

Can't agree with the man's politics in any way but I can agree with his statements regarding this event. I went to matches vs Liverpool in that era, in fact I was at a match that day and remember the unanimous chants (it was a London derby so no real surprises) when the news of an incident filtered through. Thousands of fans would turn up at all ticket matches asking for "spurs" which we all found amusing in London because no one wanted Spurs tickets in our neck of the woods. This tragedy has been variously painted as an accident, an irresponsible fan crush, a cover-up by the authorities and a totally preventable event. It was a combination of all the things but some sections of society can't accept the second item on the list I gave above.
JohnC

It's a sad indictment on today's society when someone has to be found to take the blame: some things just happen because of a sequence of events and decisions, none of which were malicious or intentional. It was a terrible accident.
Tim

I wonder what his views on Jews and the holocaust are?
PhilD

JohnC wrote:
It's a sad indictment on today's society when someone has to be found to take the blame: some things just happen because of a sequence of events and decisions, none of which were malicious or intentional. It was a terrible accident.


So the inquiry findings were wrong? In what way?
JohnC

PhilD wrote:

So the inquiry findings were wrong? In what way?


That's not what I said.
Big Blue

Tim wrote:
I wonder what his views on Jews and the holocaust are?


Probably unmentionably horrid but there's a distinct difference between a pre-meditated plan of extermination of a section of society and a one-off incident which was caused by a sequence of events outside of the control of one set of individuals.
Tim

Big Blue wrote:
Tim wrote:
I wonder what his views on Jews and the holocaust are?


Probably unmentionably horrid but there's a distinct difference between a pre-meditated plan of extermination of a section of society and a one-off incident which was caused by a sequence of events outside of the control of one set of individuals.




It was in respect of the unfortunately phrased "milking a tragedy to death" comment.
PhilD

JohnC wrote:
PhilD wrote:

So the inquiry findings were wrong? In what way?


That's not what I said.


The inquiry found it wasn't an accident, which I thought you said it was?
Bob Sacamano

Liverpool. It's never their fault.


Justice for the 39 (Juventus).
Racing Teatray

Quite difficult when somebody you loathe says something you agree with.
gooner

I think he states a lot of things that many people are thinking but wouldn't want to say because it's deemed unacceptable. I agree that the cover up was wrong and The Sun were a disgrace for the way they pointed blame squarely at the fans, however I also believe that none of the Police officers on the day set out to harm anyone, they just couldn't deal with the sheer volume of people who'd turned up and made the unwittingly disastrous decision to open the gates. That doesn't mean the fans who had no ticket and decided they could get in for free are totally blameless either but the whole 'justice' campaign is focussed on the actions of the Police.

I don't think it's fair to say the victims families are milking it though, in their shoes would we be so willing to drop the subject?
Bob Sacamano

The only innocent people in the whole sad affair are those that lost their lives. Everyone else has a degree of culpability and all of them have tried to cover up and deflect the degree to which their actions or inactions contributed to the disaster. I feel sorry for the families who lost their loved ones but even they have bought into the re-writing of events. Liverpool fans were well known for turning up to away matches without tickets and "jibbing" their way into overcrowded terraces - and regularly boasted about it. But we're not allowed to mention this now.
PG

gooner wrote:
I think he states a lot of things that many people are thinking but wouldn't want to say because it's deemed unacceptable.....


And there we have it. Free speech isn't really that free if it is deemed unacceptable to disagree with the  prevailing view. Even though we all might think it privately. And that's the dilema isn't it, as speaking the unspeakbale is pretty much where Brexit and Trump came from.

gooner wrote:
.....I don't think it's fair to say the victims families are milking it though, in their shoes would we be so willing to drop the subject?


I would not say that they are milking it as such, but rather like the Bloody Sunday situation, you get the distinct feeling that they will never rest until somebody goes to jail for what did or did not happen. If the second inquest had found that it was death by accident, I doubt they would see that as the end of it for example. They'd still be demanding "justice". And however stupid the police on the day were, I don't think they had malicious intent to see people die. What was stupid was that they tried to cover stuff up.
Bob Sacamano

[quote="PG:572703"]
gooner wrote:
And however stupid the police on the day were, I don't think they had malicious intent to see people die. What was stupid was that they tried to cover stuff up.


I have to say as someone who's wife works for a Premier League football club and sits in on the security briefings with the police on high profile matches, they still can be remarkably stupid on how they deal with football fans. They will generally ignore the advice of the club's own security (all retired ex-coppers) and contribute to their own problems on match days.
Big Blue

Not sure he was directing his comments at the families of the victims, more an entire city. The recent decision to ban Sun reporters, many of whom were likely either not born or in school uniform when this happened, highlights the point he was making.
Scouse

Scousers. Says it all.
JohnC

PhilD wrote:
JohnC wrote:
PhilD wrote:

So the inquiry findings were wrong? In what way?


That's not what I said.


The inquiry found it wasn't an accident, which I thought you said it was?


And do all enquiries come to the right conclusion or are some so pressurised that they feel they have to find some scapegoat?

In my view there were errors of judgement made on the day but no-one wanted those people to die or did anything which intentionally killed them: that makes it a tragic accident.

Was the Shuttle disaster an accident or a deliberate act? There will be someone somewhere who didn't check something or didn't tighten something or over-tightened it but never with the intention of doing harm to another person. Fair enough if it can be proven that someone couldn't be bothered to do something because it was Friday and he went home early or he was still pissed from the night before, then you would have someone who could take a fall but at Hillsborough the main "crime" appears to have been the cover up.

You also have to consider the state of football at that time with violence seen regularly and fences to prevent pitch invasions and other bad behaviour which could not otherwise be stopped. When the trouble makers (football fans in general at that time) start crying wolf it is also understandable that it might take the Police and others a bit longer to take them seriously than if they had all been angels for the past 20 years.

Several years ago, the Police in London shot dead a man walking along a street carrying a table leg for restoration (which they mistook for a gun) - that was deemed an accident with no-one to blame. In my eyes, that was much much less of an accident and I would have to say I do believe someone was to blame for that man's death - there was a conscious decision to take his life based on nothing more than an incorrect assessment of the situation. This was tragic but not an accident IMHO.

Hillsborough was both tragic and an accident in my opinion. The fact that errors of judgement were made doesn't in itself make it someone's fault.
PhilD

JohnC wrote:
PhilD wrote:
JohnC wrote:
PhilD wrote:

So the inquiry findings were wrong? In what way?


That's not what I said.


The inquiry found it wasn't an accident, which I thought you said it was?


And do all enquiries come to the right conclusion or are some so pressurised that they feel they have to find some scapegoat?

In my view there were errors of judgement made on the day but no-one wanted those people to die or did anything which intentionally killed them: that makes it a tragic accident.



So you do think the inquiry findings were wrong. Fair enough if you do, you've considered the same evidence as the inquiry but come to a different conclusion.

For years I bough into the whinging Scouser and unruly football fans argument. I didn't follow the most recent inquiry closely so I can't a take a specific view on whether they did consider all the available evidence fairly or if there is any evidence they were pressurised. I do through generally trust our justice system and (as far as I'm aware) have no particular bias towards the police.

On that basis, and while I agree with your sentiment that we don't want the "where there's blame there's a claim" culture to take over, I don't see Hillsborough as an example of this happening and don't see it as an accident.
Roadsterstu

[quote="Bob Sacamano:572704"]
PG wrote:
gooner wrote:
And however stupid the police on the day were, I don't think they had malicious intent to see people die. What was stupid was that they tried to cover stuff up.


I have to say as someone who's wife works for a Premier League football club and sits in on the security briefings with the police on high profile matches, they still can be remarkably stupid on how they deal with football fans. They will generally ignore the advice of the club's own security (all retired ex-coppers) and contribute to their own problems on match days.


As someone who has likewise sat on several pre match briefings, I can say that I have not witnessed this. Perhaps it has been different where I worked. Perhaps that is just a sweeping generalisation.

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