Archive for The Motor Forum talking cars since 2006
 


       The Motor Forum Forum Index -> Racing Posts
Richard (ex-MB_insider)

FIA investigating last years Singapore GP

According to www.grandprix.com.

I can't find any reference to it on the FIA website though.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21778.html

Quote:
The FIA has confirmed that there is an investigation under way regarding, what the spokesperson called "alleged incidents at a previous FIA Formula 1 World Championship event".

The confirmation comes following reports on Brazilian TV that Renault driver Nelson Piquet was ordered to crash by the Renault team to enable his team-mate Fernando Alonso to take advantage of an early pit stop in order to win a surprising victory.
Richard (ex-MB_insider)

Now on Autosport as well.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78195
BeN

Whoa.
Humphrey The Pug

Oh, has Nelson been talking perhaps?
Chris M Wants a V-10

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
Oh, has Nelson been talking perhaps?

Almost certainly, and out of spite.  Quite how the FIA are ever going to unravel the truth on this one, I don't know.



(but when has the FIA ever really been interested in the truth and/or fair punishment that does not affect the fans?)


(err, when has the FIA ever thought of giving priority to the interests of the fans.......)
Twelfth Monkey

If it is from Piquet, he falls even further in my estimation.  Doing the right thing simply because it is the right thing is noble; doing so as part of a sulk because you were booted out for being crap quite another.
Big TC

I remember that at the time, it was seen as 'advantageous' that a crashing Renault had caused a safety car at just the right time for the other Renault.

If it is so, then Renault (or Flav) were a bit forgetful of this order to Piquet when they sacked him. Who can blame him for spilling the beans, whether his doing so is right or wrong?
JohnC

If F1 carries on like this it will go in to complete meltdown and cease to exist!

BMW is out for next year, Toyota is rumoured to be considering leaving, Force India is short of cash: it won't take much more to reach critical mass.

If Renault cheated to gain victory then they are due the same punishment as we have seen handed out to others accused of cheating or bringing the sport into disrepute.

Personally I didn't think that Piquet was as bad as he was accused of being and to be dismissed part way through a season was not the smartest of moves if Renault have skeletons in the cupboard. I can't see that Piquet would have been any worse than Grosjean (sp)
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

I seem to remember that Piquet Sr was known for spreading malicious rumours and making unsubstantiated attacks on other drivers during his time in F1: I can't help wondering if this is his idea.

I just find it difficult to believe a driver would deliberately crash into a concrete wall. Not that Piquet Jr ever had problems crashing accidentally, of course ...
Mike Amos

Renault only got away with their spygate situation when the McLaren management requested no punishment be metted out.

For them to get away with another scandal of the same brevity would just make the situation complete.

Whether Piquet was right in shopping them is a whole playing field away from being the same argument.  Funny thing is, he probably got the idea from his team mate.

Oh how they are laughing now, NOT!
Sav

It has happened before in a motor race, "Should I create a yellow for Michael" , Mario Andretti on the Radio to his pit at an Indy 500 Race.

Lets see the FIA's findings, however the accident did not really look like an accident. I know Piquet is accident prone, but it is was a pretty odd place to crash off. And his comments after the race were a touch puzzling too:

Quote:
"We're always scraping the walls, and once you've touched the wall a little too much and lose control that's it."


On the exit of the corner he crashed on, he did not scrap the wall. Although Piquet is being sour and desperate, I will not rule out the possibility of foul play because it it possible that Renault did order Piquet to crash, for the credibility of F1 I would like to see this cleared up. Nobody can be certain either way.

Renault do appear to be the FIA's new bitch now, taking over from Mclaren.  
Chris M Wants a V-10

Sav wrote:

Renault do appear to be the FIA's new bitch now, taking over from Mclaren.  

Yes, because Ron has gone from the pitlane so they are turning their attention to Flav, their second most-hated person in the pitlane.  The FIA's political antics stink. Just hope that once Max has gone, the new incumbent sorts things out
Gooner

And you thought the FiA couldn't get any more paranoid! Sounds a bit far fetched and at best sour grapes in Pique's behalf. But you never know? It's been such an interesting season there isn't much that would surprise me right now.
ALF

What worries me most about this is the comments from Bernie and others that they should not be investigating Renault in case they pull out. What has that got to do with it? To do what they did to McLaren, then ignore Renault doing exactly the same, then start making comments that they should not even be investigating someone in case they get upset, seems crazy!
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

That's definitely true, but at a time when two manufacturer teams have already pulled out, and another two are looking shaky, you can see why Bernie - who after all has his divorce to pay for - doesn't want to lose any more.
Richard (ex-MB_insider)

ALF wrote:
What worries me most about this is the comments from Bernie and others that they should not be investigating Renault in case they pull out. What has that got to do with it? To do what they did to McLaren, then ignore Renault doing exactly the same, then start making comments that they should not even be investigating someone in case they get upset, seems crazy!


1. The only comments Bernie has made on "crashgate" were in this interview in The Times. Nowhere does he say that the FIA should not investigate.

2. The FIA did not ignore the claims that Renault were in possession of another teams intellectual property. There was a hearing of the WMSC and Renault were found guilty of possessing a rival teams intellectual property and received exactly the same punishment as McLaren did at their first hearing - nothing. In the Renault case and McLarens's 1st hearing it was accepted that whilst both teams were in possession of rivals IP there was no evidence that attempts had been made to use it.

McLaren were called to a second hearing, fined $100m and thrown out of the championship when evidence later came to light that McLaren had misled the WMSC and attempts had been made to use the Ferrari IP.

At the Renault hearing it was made clear that if evidence were to emerge that attempts were made to use other teams IP then a 2nd hearing would be called and Renault would face the same penalties as McLaren.

The FIA has not made any official comments but some F1 sites have reported that the investigation is wider than just the Singapore GP. If you assume that Piquet Jr is the source of the information on the Singapore GP then it is worth remembering that Piquet Jr was the Renault test driver back in 2007. If Renault were trying to use McLaren's IP then it is possible that Piquet knew and has now blown the whistle.
Humphrey The Pug

Well they've been charged now:

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5538070,00.html
TimR

Presumably Piquet Jnr will be banned from racing for a long time since he's kept this quiet (if actually true) for nearly a year and only spoken out because he's been given the bullet?
Big Blue

TimR wrote:
Presumably Piquet Jnr will be banned from racing for a long time since he's kept this quiet (if actually true) for nearly a year and only spoken out because he's been given the bullet?


Piquet has a self-effecting ban curently in force: he's shit  
Humphrey The Pug

Oh dear it's not looking good for renault:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78446

Even if Briatore and Symonds didn't suggest to Piquet that he crash to help Alonso and it was Piquet's idea and decision, which I doubt, they have admitted that the scenario was discussed.

If the above is the case they are just as guilty for keeping it quiet.
Big Blue

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
Oh dear it's not looking good for renault


Who do you work for again.....
Big TC

To re-iterate my comment, made above, it would seem that Briatore has potentially shot himself in the foot if they did ask Piquet to bin it at turn 17. Sacking him less than a year later was not the wisest move....

I can't blame Piquet for spilling the beans, can you? Although his actions and words may well cause some further job losses at Renault, if thet're banned.
TimR

Here's a link to what purports to be a leaked transcript ofPiquet's submission to the FIA

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21798.html
SpecB

If that is true then Briatore is a bigger twat than I initially thought.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Quote:
At the time of this conversation I was in a very fragile and emotional state of mind. This state of mind was brought about by intense stress due to the fact that Mr. Briatore had refused to inform me of whether or not my driver's contract would be renewed for the next racing year

That's the problem with young people today - no backbone. As to the story, I go with Alan Henry: it's hard to work out who's the bigger fool: Briatore for asking, or Piquet for agreeing.
Humphrey The Pug

SpecB wrote:
If that is true then Briatore is a bigger twat than I initially thought.


Who was in charge of Benetton when Jos Verstappens car went up in flames due to a filter being removed from the re-fuelling rig to make the fuel flow faster?

Who was in charge of Benetton when it was widely thought they had an illegal traction and launch control system that laid dormant in one of the many ECU's to work at the flick of a switch from the pitwall?

I would not be surprised in the least if it turns out to be true.
TimR

Alonso's saying that he's surprised by the news and didn't know anything about it.

Poor wee thing.
No matter how bad it might've been for him at McLaren at least they 'kept him in the loop' enough for him to know what 'illegal' goings on there were.

It must be terrible for him to realise that he's been kept in the dark at Renault.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

I can't honestly see how this is going to be resolved. In the absence of some (previously hidden) hard evidence, it's basically Piquet's word against Briatore and Symonds. So I don't think Renault will be punished.

But from Piquet's point of view, they don't need to be: the accusation will always hang around like a bad smell, and taint Renault's reputation for years, if not decades to come. So job done for Piquet and his dad - revenge, served cold, etc.
Humphrey The Pug

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
I can't honestly see how this is going to be resolved. In the absence of some (previously hidden) hard evidence, it's basically Piquet's word against Briatore and Symonds. So I don't think Renault will be punished.

But from Piquet's point of view, they don't need to be: the accusation will always hang around like a bad smell, and taint Renault's reputation for years, if not decades to come. So job done for Piquet and his dad - revenge, served cold, etc.


The problem you have though is that both Briatore and Symonds state that on the morning of the race a conversation took place between themselves and Piquet exploring the possibility of a deliberate crash, irrespective of who came up with the idea and whether or not Briatore and Symonds agreed to the crash, there was a crash. Telemetry will be able to show if it was dodgy driving, tied into pitlane to car conversations, if there were any.

If Briatore and Symonds didn't sanction the crash why did they keep quiet? They are both just as guilty as Piquet, if he acted alone, for not bringing it to the attention of the FIA when it happened.

They knew it was a deliberate crash and have effectively said so in the statement that there was a meeting between the three on that morning.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
If Briatore and Symonds didn't sanction the crash why did they keep quiet?

Because - as we've seen - many people wouldn't believe Piquet acted alone. As I said before, I think this is all about the Piquets getting revenge for sacking Junior - it doesn't matter if it's proven or not, they just need to throw the mud and let it stick.

Incidentally, just read a breaking report that Renaut are going to sue Piquet.

Quote:
Renault have announced they have begun legal proceedings against Nelson Piquet Jr and his father, Nelson Piquet, over "the making of false allegations and a related attempt to blackmail the team into allowing Piquet Jr to drive for the remainder of the 2009 season".


http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2...nelson-piquet-renault-race-fixing
BeN

Latest news I got is that Renault are now accusing Piquet of lying.
Richard (ex-MB_insider)

Getting quite nasty now.

The Brazilian press are reporting that Flavio has let slip that Piquet Jr is gay.
TimR

That seems a bit harsh, if true, just because Flavio has figuratively shagged him
Gooner

He does look a bit gay though.

It does seem that Briatori is going way to far in raking up details of Pique's personal life. The whole affair just seems to get nastier with every news story.
Humphrey The Pug

Oh dear it's not looking too good for Flav, Symonds has been offered immunity to spill the beans:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6834557.ece
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

The Times have the radio transcript:

Quote:
In the early part of the race, there were several exchanges between Symonds and the engineers about Alonso’s race strategy, with Symonds preparing the ground to drop the original three-stop approach and change it to a two-stop strategy that would better fit with any plan for Piquet to crash.

“I can tell you now we are not three-stopping,” Symonds is heard to say on the transcript made by the FIA as part of its evidence in the case, a copy of which has been seen by The Times.

Later Symonds adds to an unnamed engineer: “Don’t worry about fuel because I’m going to get him [Alonso] out of this traffic earlier than that.”

Not long afterwards comes an unusual intervention from Piquet, who was running towards the back of the field in the early stages of Formula One’s first night race. But the novelty factor for him was not the floodlights. It has now been suggested that he was worried about which lap he was on because he knew he had special instructions for lap 14.

Piquet says: “What lap are we in, what lap are we in?”

A few seconds later an engineer tells the others on the wall: “He just asked: ‘What lap are we in?’ ”

Symonds intervenes: “Yeah, tell him that he’s about to complete lap 8.”

Symonds insists Piquet is then told something he should know from his pitboard, which is shown to him at the end of every lap. “No, just tell him, he is about, he’s just completing, he’s about to complete lap eight.”

After Piquet is given the information, the discussion returns to the timing of Alonso’s first stop and Symonds makes his decision. “Right, I’m going to . . . I think we’re going to stop him just before we catch him [a reference to the Williams driver, Kazuki Nakajima, who was ahead of Alonso] and get him out of it, the reason being we’ve still got this worry on the fuel pump. It’s only a couple of laps short. We’re going to be stopping him early and we’re going to go to lap 40.”

This decision prompts an engineer, who wants assurance from Symonds that a tactical option that would drop Alonso to last is the right thing to do. “Pat, do you still not think that this is a bit too early?” he asks a few minutes later. “We only did six tenths that lap.”

Symonds replies: “No, no it’s going to be all right.”

“OK, OK, understood,” the engineer responds.

Once Alonso has made his stop, Symonds tells everybody that it is time to “concentrate on” Piquet. After assessing the Brazilian’s position, he and Briatore decide Piquet has to quicken up as the fateful lap draws near.

Symonds to the engineer: “OK right, you’ve got to push him really bloody hard now. If he doesn’t get past Barrichello, he’s going nowhere, he’s got to get past Barrichello this lap.”

“Tell him, push . . .,” Briatore says.

Piquet’s race engineer gives him the hurry-up: “Nelson, no excuses now, you’ve got to get past Barrichello. You’ve got four clicks straight-line advantage. Come on, you’ve got to push now, you must get past him.”

Moments later Piquet crashes at turn 17, where there are no cranes to lift the wreckage, making a safety car inevitable, and at the point at which he alleges Symonds told him to do the deed during a meeting before the race.

Multiple voices: “Nelson’s off. F***ing hell. Nelson’s had a crash. I would say that would be a red flag. It’s huge [all speaking at the same time] .

Piquet: “Sorry guys. I had a little outing.”

Engineer: “Is he all right, Is he all right?”

Symonds: “Ask him if he’s all right.”

Engineer: “Are you OK? Are you OK?”

Engineer: “Fernando’s just gone past it.”

Engineer: “OK, yellow flag.”

Piquet: “Yeah, I hit my head in the back. I think I’m OK.”

Engineer: “OK, understood.”

Symonds: “Right [inaudible], stop him.”

Engineer: “Safety car, safety car, safety car, safety car. Fernando, safety car, mixture three.”

Symonds: “Tell him to be careful, turn 17 I think it is.”

After several exchanges about Alonso, an engineer expresses concern, presumably after seeing the crash on the television monitor, but Briatore seems unconcerned and is angry with Piquet.

Engineer: “F***ing hell that was a big shunt.”

Briatore: “F***ing hell . . . my every f***ing disgrace, f***ing, he’s not a driver.”

Then Symonds asks about Alonso’s suddenly improving prospects.

Symonds: “What position is Fernando in?”

Engineer: “Well, we were 20, and we’re first guy to pick the safety car up.”

Symonds: “Yeah, we’re not . . .”

Engineer: “He will get away past it but he’s got to wait.”

Later Briatore and Symonds discuss Alonso’s chances. “What position we are now in all this?” asks Briatore.

Symonds replies: “To be honest, I don’t know Flavio. It’s got to have been good for Fernando. But I honestly don’t know where he is.”

In the final part of the transcript, several minutes after the crash, the Renault team return to the subject of Piquet and his condition and at this stage Briatore adds his own concern for the young Brazilian driver’s welfare.

Engineer: “Where is Nelson? Have you seen him?”

Briatore: “Is he OK, Nelson? Is he OK?”

Alonso: “The pitlane is closed until we arrive?”

Engineer: “He climbed out, mate, and ran across the track.”

Engineer: “Yeah, the pitlane is still closed.”


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6834552.ece
Humphrey The Pug

Breaking news on BBC and Sky Sports, Flav and Symonds have resigned from Renault F1, can't find a link yet though.

Renault are also not disputing the allegations.

*edit* http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78668
TimR

Gotta laugh at Piquet's comment in the above transcript "I had a little outing".

No kidding mate
How prophetic.
DaveGibson

Alan Henry, in today's Autocar, is wondering how much Alonso knew. As he points out, when you fail to qualify for Q3, it's not normal to be fuelled for only 12 laps. He also indicates that, when at McLaren, Alonso suggested they let Hamilton run out of fuel so that he could win.
Scouse

Biartore & Symonds have resigned and Renault will not be contesting the charge accoridng to the news on radio 2???
Eff One

It's all over the web now, including Autosport:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78668

I'm shocked particularly at Symonds, who always seemed a pretty down-to-earth sort. I just don't understand the mentality of behaviour like this.

With Renault not disputing the charge, what chance they'll be thrown out of F1 for good?
Humphrey The Pug

Renault probably told them to go in the hope that it would save the team, we shall see what happens on Monday/Tuesday.
the other ct

Quote:

Briatore: “F***ing hell . . . my every f***ing disgrace, f***ing, he’s not a driver.”



Big TC

Shan't miss Flav-the-chav, to be honest.

He always looks to me like he'll smell of some sickly sweet soap, which doesn't quite mask his B.O.

So whereto Pat Symonds now - if Renault are found guilty, then he will be guilty too. Probably get a life-ban from F1, which will be down-graded to a ten grand fine, or something like it.
BeN

I have an inkling that Flav will get off lightly. He's good chums with Bernie after all.
PhilD

Am I the only person who doesn't think this is a big deal? It's just sport afterall.
Chris M Wants a V-10

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
Renault probably told them to go in the hope that it would save the team, we shall see what happens on Monday/Tuesday.

Alonso's main concern, so he said when he trotted off to McLaren, was that there was no evidence of any long-term commitment to F1.  Maybe this present fiasco is an ideal opportunity for Renault to pull out for next year, also giving credence to the "new" Sauber team being given a reserve entry for next year (ie with Renault out, Sauber are now guaranteed a place for 2010).
PhilD wrote:

Am I the only person who doesn't think this is a big deal? It's just sport afterall

Nope, not at all..... this kind of thing must go on in many sports; Just off the top of my head, I can think of horse racing, football and snooker games where fixing has been raised as an issue.
Apex clipper

Chris M Wants a V-10 wrote:

Nope, not at all..... this kind of thing must go on in many sports; Just off the top of my head, I can think of horse racing, football and snooker games where fixing has been raised as an issue.


But they arn't doing 200mph! The risk to life must be addressed in the enquiry that the FIA must warrent.

I'm shocked. Makes a mockery of the F1 roadshow..serious questions need to be asked and answered by all and sundry.. if the show is to go on.
Apex clipper

*Coughs



PhilD

Apex clipper wrote:
Chris M Wants a V-10 wrote:

Nope, not at all..... this kind of thing must go on in many sports; Just off the top of my head, I can think of horse racing, football and snooker games where fixing has been raised as an issue.


But they arn't doing 200mph! The risk to life must be addressed in the enquiry that the FIA must warrent..


nor are F1 cars a lot of the time, and do you think F1 is more dangerous than horse racing?

Anyway I wasn't reffering to the danger or otherwise of this type of cheating (and neither has the media as far as I've seen in it's reporting) instead I just don't think that that in the grand scheme of things a bit of cheating in sport is really that bad. In fact I think this is quite clever!
Eff One

PhilD wrote:
Am I the only person who doesn't think this is a big deal? It's just sport afterall.


I assume cheating goes on in many sports, but that doesn't make it acceptable in my opinion. Winning is meaningless if you're not playing by the rules.

I think Renault may actually be thrown out of F1 for this.
Humphrey The Pug

Eff One wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Am I the only person who doesn't think this is a big deal? It's just sport afterall.


I assume cheating goes on in many sports, but that doesn't make it acceptable in my opinion. Winning is meaningless unless if you're not playing by the rules.

I think Renault may actually be thrown out of F1 for this.


They should be but Bernie doesn't want manufacturers leaving the sport, but then again BMW have now been offered a slot for next year that theoretically doesn't exist and will Renault want to stay on anyway, they will more than likely at least get their points wiped from last year and so far this year which will mean no income this year from points and who will want to sponsor them next year?
TimR

They can't throw Renault out yet though.

Not until they've paid a whopping big fine to finance another private jet for some FIA suits.
PhilD

Eff One wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Am I the only person who doesn't think this is a big deal? It's just sport afterall.


I assume cheating goes on in many sports, but that doesn't make it acceptable in my opinion. Winning is meaningless if you're not playing by the rules.

I think Renault may actually be thrown out of F1 for this.


which rule have they broken?
Gooner

PhilD wrote:
Eff One wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Am I the only person who doesn't think this is a big deal? It's just sport afterall.


I assume cheating goes on in many sports, but that doesn't make it acceptable in my opinion. Winning is meaningless if you're not playing by the rules.

I think Renault may actually be thrown out of F1 for this.


which rule have they broken?


I'm sorry am I assuming you think their behaviour was in some way acceptable? They told a guy to deliberately chuck a 500kg 800hp single seat racer at a concrete wall at high speed! They were just lucky that noone was hurt. Imagine if he'd accidentally cocked it up and killed a steward? Would that still be acceptable?
ds240

PhilD wrote:
Eff One wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Am I the only person who doesn't think this is a big deal? It's just sport afterall.


I assume cheating goes on in many sports, but that doesn't make it acceptable in my opinion. Winning is meaningless if you're not playing by the rules.

I think Renault may actually be thrown out of F1 for this.


which rule have they broken?




I don't know if you have written that as a serious comment, or messing around.

Assuming you weren't, are you stupid?

Bringing the sport into disrespute, criminal offences of obtaining winning funds by means of deception (race fixing), deliberately altering the outcome of the race by dishonest means.......

When you think about it, renault should be thrown out of F1 and I think could face bans from other fia sanctioned race series. Massive fines also. Love the way briatore and symonds jumped before the shit storm. Briatore saying he is going in order to protect renault... bullshit.... he's only looking after one person.

Alonso must have also known about what was going on. Playing stupid over it will not wash.

I'm surprised nothing was questioned earlier than this. Alonsos fuel strategy never made sense, and then going down the line it was all just 'good luck' his team mate crashed whilst running such a suicidal strategy.
PhilD

Steady on chaps! and DS240, if we were having this conversation in the pub would you call me stupid?
Big Blue

I'm with PhilD on this. It's a game an someone cheated, like taking an extra space on Ludo.

So all this legal action is being bandied around and it's a "sport" is it? Well, let's set some precedent for "sport" and let football teams sue referees for piss-poor decisions; let them sue diving players; have players extradicted on criminal charges for diving in the 'box and getting a match-turning penalty; FIFA could have a class action against them for not allowing instant televisual replays when the technology clearly exists....... I could go on for days and bring all "sports" into the argument.

This whole incident is just something that happens in F1. These are a load of big boys playing with toys and sometimes they want to take their ball home with a smile on their face so they cheat. Bernie is loving it: F1 is all over the back pages when there's no races; the saga will carry on into the close season and F1 will emerge as still THE place to spunk your sponsorship budget........

Flav needed to retire at some point and this gives him an "out" in a blaze of glory. Symonds will return in a year or two, much as Coughlin will be back next season.

And there are no stupid people; just those with differing views.
ALF

I don't think cheating of this sort is remotely acceptable, and that's before considering the safety implications.

It does seem the FIA have successfully got rid of their second most hated team leader, but if he was up to stuff like this then he deserves it. He seems a prize tool anyway.

It still irks me hugely that after giving McLaren such a massive penalty the FIA have suddenly gone all girly about punishing other teams. When chasing McLaren they made out that the sport was whiter than white - and it clearly is not. One rule for all, would be nice.

The crossover in technology from F1 to road cars - particularly humdrum FWD family cars like Renault make - is no minimal I really don't care if all the manufacturers clear off and leave the sport to racing teams who are in it for the long run.
Twelfth Monkey

ALF wrote:
I don't think cheating of this sort is remotely acceptable, and that's before considering the safety implications.

It does seem the FIA have successfully got rid of their second most hated team leader, but if he was up to stuff like this then he deserves it. He seems a prize tool anyway.

It still irks me hugely that after giving McLaren such a massive penalty the FIA have suddenly gone all girly about punishing other teams. When chasing McLaren they made out that the sport was whiter than white - and it clearly is not. One rule for all, would be nice.


Agreed on all counts.
TimR

ALF wrote:
I don't think cheating of this sort is remotely acceptable, and that's before considering the safety implications.

It does seem the FIA have successfully got rid of their second most hated team leader, but if he was up to stuff like this then he deserves it. He seems a prize tool anyway.

It still irks me hugely that after giving McLaren such a massive penalty the FIA have suddenly gone all girly about punishing other teams. When chasing McLaren they made out that the sport was whiter than white - and it clearly is not. One rule for all, would be nice.


I agree with that.
The whole spygate thing was ridiculous and McLaren got a huge fine for admitting they had the data while also saying it was no good to them (a point backed up by several other team leaders including Pat Symonds) while Renault got off despite having possibly used the info they had

ALF wrote:

The crossover in technology from F1 to road cars - particularly humdrum FWD family cars like Renault make - is so minimal I really don't care if all the manufacturers clear off and leave the sport to racing teams who are in it for the long run.


That exact point is made in the review of the new McLaren supercar in CAR mag.
The McLaren guy says that apart from the assistance of their knowledge of carbonfibre little in the roadcar has come from F1.
Max Headroom

I feel like I may be being just a whiff cynical but surely all these internecine shenanigins have been going on for as long as the sport has been around??

I have followed F1 for some thirty years now and I'm sure i see the ghostly hand of Bernie moving over circumstances. The soap opera of it all is meant to enhance the excitement??

Or is it me??
Big Blue

Max Headroom wrote:
I feel like I may be being just a whiff cynical but surely all these internecine shenanigins have been going on for as long as the sport has been around??

I have followed F1 for some thirty years now and I'm sure i see the ghostly hand of Bernie moving over circumstances. The soap opera of it all is meant to enhance the excitement??

Or is it me??


No - you're right.
DaveGibson

It's long been thought that Ferrari, during the 3-litre formula, were allowed to run 4-litre engines at the Italian GP so that the crowd would have something to cheer.
Apex clipper

PhilD wrote:
Steady on chaps! and DS240, if we were having this conversation in the pub would you call me stupid?


What a strange post! I should think that this Forum is one of the very few that hasn't the keyboard warrior element.
PhilD

Apex clipper wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Steady on chaps! and DS240, if we were having this conversation in the pub would you call me stupid?


What a strange post! I should think that this Forum is one of the very few that hasn't the keyboard warrior element.


agreed, which is why I was checking with DS240, it did seem a bit strange!
ds240

You'll note that my comments were not a direct phrase of 'you are stupid'.

It is a commenly used term 'are you stupid'... not a direct accusation, merely a statement to check your comment i.e surely your comments can't be said seriously.

Would I say it in a pub? suppose so, why not?.

The comment regards 'what have they done wrong', is still in my opinion some what odd. It is farily obvious, surely! Quite clear cheating.

If someone fitted a turbo and pushed put 1000bhp instead of 700-800bhp and were only found out later. Would that also be 'what have they done wrong'?

It's cheating, and very obviously so.


ps. philD, I think alex was questioning your comment, not mine. But I could be wrong in my interpretation.
Apex clipper

Who's alex?
ds240

Apex clipper wrote:
Who's alex?


oh yeah... i meant apex.
Gooner

I'm called Alex. In real that is. Here I'm just Gooner the keyboard warrior!
Apex clipper

Gooner wrote:
I'm called Alex. In real that is. Here I'm just Gooner the keyboard warrior!



(((((((((((((((((((((((((((    )))))))))))))))))))))))))))
PhilD

Ds240, I know AC was questioning my comment, I was agreeing to his comment about keyboard warriors (are you stupid? )

I have not said at any point that I don't think there has been wrong doing, I asked what rule they had broken in response to F1s post about winning whilst not following the rules.

I just don't think that cheating in sport is worth getting too upset about.
Apex clipper

PhilD wrote:
Ds240, I know AC was questioning my comment, I was agreeing to his comment about keyboard warriors (are you stupid? )

I have not said at any point that I don't think there has been wrong doing, I asked what rule they had broken in response to F1s post about winning whilst not following the rules.

I just don't think that cheating in sport is worth getting too upset about.


It still has me confused Phil..So what say..the driver was killed? Do we now think, that the two protagonists  would hold their hands up...?? It doesn't need a leap of faith to answer that. Of course not! It's well hidden... And what about crashing the car and parts flying into the crowd..I'll wager that a certain driver would have a large deposit put into a Southern principality *No questions asked* and a drive in another formula...With the weight of a certain rich french bloke!  It's a low point...The odd dive in football is a far cry away from crashing a 900hp car within the reaches of paying customers.

"I've never called anyone stupid!...honest guv"  

Keyboard warriors..tsk!
DaveGibson

The rule broken which seems most obvious would be "Causing an unnecessary accident" but that is usually invoked against drivers. Whether it can be applied to other personnel is open to debate. As to the danger of the 'accident', it looks to me like the place chosen was extremely unlikely to affect to result in any debris reaching the spectators (if there actually were any in the vicinity).
PhilD

Ok, this is getting slightly out of hand! F1, indeed all motorsport is dangerous (though I have said previously that's it's probably safer than driving on the road!).

So having accepted it is dangerous then all actions by participants could be seen as dangerous or in some cases those actions might increase the danger.

This incident was certainly the latter and even though the accident was perhaps bigger than expected (the radio transcrpit certainly suggests so) no one was actually killed or indeed injured. Also, as DaveG says the spot chosen  was also unlikely to put spectators at risk.

Which brings us back to the wider question, the only one I have actually commented on, which is whether "cheating" is acceptable in sport. The problem is the line as to what is considered 'acceptable' gamesmanship,  is constantly shifting so it's difficult to say. In F1 team orders seem to be a henious crime one minute and fine the next (particulary if those team orders will benefit a Brit, come on Rubens do the decent thing!). This incident is team orders taken to the extreme, and yes I think it is step to far and all involved should punished but I'm just saying a little perspective in required.
TimR

Surely the fundamental rule broken is a 'no cheating' one.

I presume such a basic rule actually exists?
DaveGibson

I doubt that there is an explicit 'no cheating' rule. The necessary rules are defined and anything deliberately not in compliance with those rules will be cheating.
Eff One

Two year suspended ban for Renault, five year ban for Symonds, lifetime ban from FIA-sanctioned motorsport for Briatore.

Ouch.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8266090.stm
woof woof

This does stink to me. McLaren get a massive fine for allegedly spying, hardly life threatening, and yet deliberately crashing only gets a suspended?

I suppose there's previous for this sort of decision...one of the reasons I stopped watching F1 was that Schumacher didn't get banned for deliberately crashing. Crashing isn't that big a deal then?

As a sport I think it lacks all credibility.
Scouse

So do Kovaleinen. Alonso & Webber each now have to sack Briatore as their manager then?
ds240

I think everyone has got off quite lightly, especially renault.

There is bound to be more goings on behind the scenes with regards to the punishments.

No fine is strange, and not even excluding them from the points this year, meaning loss of money revneue.

Alonso escpaes because he is due to go to Ferrari, Renault largely escape because they don't want to lose a manufacture from the sport, piquet escapes because ... well no one cares about him.

Briatore and symonds punishments are about right for what happened.

I would have expected a bigger punishment over mclarens spying incident. Fixing the race as much as possible is not good for the sport.

oh well thats the latest F1 shit storm to blow over.............. until next week!!
Clunes

Alan,

I agree to a point but there are some key differences between then (Mclaren) and now (Renault) - the main one being that the FIA are desperate not to loose any more manufacturers from the championship right now.

If Renault had been kicked out or given a huge fine right now then they would have been shooting themselves in the foot as it is likely they would have pulled out.

The other difference is, I suppose, that Renault pretty much admitted it and went some way to dealing with the issue in showing Flav and Pat the way out a.s.a.p. and not contesting the charge.

McLaren on the other hand pretty much denied any wrong-doing throughout.

Rightly or wrongly, a guilty plea often results in a lower sentence than someone pleading not-guilty who is subsequently proven to be so!

O.
Eff One

I think the fact that Renault admitted their guilt and took immediate steps against the individuals involved made all the difference. The FIA statement says as much.

And yes - all four drivers currently managed by Briatore (Webber, Alonso, Kovalainen and Grosjean) will have to sack him if they want to retain their superlicences.
Apex clipper

'Indefinitely' DOESN'T mean a life ban in my eyes!

What a load of bollocks!
Mike Amos

They have gone a little further down the road to being pointless.  How can you have such a breach, so repeatedly?  Lets not forget that Renault were also found in possesion of other teams intelectual property, and on the car too.  Briatore was also in charge when other little infringments occured and nothing worthwhile happened.  Take a look into the past and the Toyota rally team bypassed breather restrictors.  They got booted out and shortly after entered F1, how come Renault are so special.  If there is anything suggested out of this it is that the FIA cannot be so certain of the new teams making entry stick.  If they were, they would chuck renault and give the entry to the Sauber team.  Giving Renault the big stick would have demonstrated resolve and demonstrated that rules and punishment MEAN something.

Right now I cannot see anything changing.
woof woof

I see the arguments but this latest scandal involves race fixing and a potentially life threatening act. To have any credibility at all either should result in severe punishment, regardless of who's been sacked or what's been admitted or not in the meantime.

I wonder if it's possible that the bookies or individuals could take this further and sue the arses off someone? People have lost a lot of money over this, probably...

I find F1 boring as a viewer, doubly so when there's the suspicion of bias towards individuals or teams, the Schumacher incidents, later the Ferrari incidents (and Schumacher again...) trebly so when politics and double standards seem to be at work, different punishments for what look like similar acts...

Shame on them all. It's not a sport anymore, for me it's been perverted beyond tolerance.
"him"

woof woof wrote:
...for me it's been perverted beyond tolerance.



Wow, I didn't realise it was THAT bad!


woof woof

They should have just insisted that the guilty take their punishment like men. No whinging, just take it like a man.
Mike Amos

"just take it like a man."

Perhaps that is the problem, too many children who never had a slap for being arsey and/or breaking the rules.  If folk get away with things, they just believe they have the right to continue doing so.

A good slap would set things straight and set F1 on the path to being a sport.
Big TC

I'm surprised at the leniency of Renault's 'punishment', tbh. However, this is real bad publicity for them and one wonders how long the board will keep them involved in F1 in the wake of this 'scandal'. I wouldn't be surprised to see them pull out of F1 at the end of next year, should results not improve.
DaveGibson

I don't think anything much will stick to Renault. By heaping everything onto Briatore and Symonds Renault have also effectively been shown as victims of the two individuals.
BeN

Apex clipper wrote:
'Indefinitely' DOESN'T mean a life ban in my eyes!

What a load of bollocks!


What does it mean to you then?
cbeaks1

Our bin men are on an indefinate strike. Its starting to smell like a lifetime.
Apex clipper

BeN wrote:
Apex clipper wrote:
'Indefinitely' DOESN'T mean a life ban in my eyes!

What a load of bollocks!


What does it mean to you then?


Vague/unclear.

Without limits...IE: When it suits them to let him sneek back.
BeN

Even a definite 'lifetime' ban can be overturned, so I don't see what the difference is.

Basically I see it as he's out until otherwise stated.
Gooner

This will also affect QPR. Briatore is joint owner but now the FiA have banned him, he no longer meets the FA regulations on who is suitable to own a football team.
DaveGibson

Technically, Briatore has not been banned because the FIA has no power to do that. What they have done is banned any FIA-affiliated team or person from hiring him.
TimR

Gooner wrote:
This will also affect QPR. Briatore is joint owner but now the FiA have banned him, he no longer meets the FA regulations on who is suitable to own a football team.


Seems unlikely to me that Briatore will be forced to exit QPR.
There are plenty of unsavoury characters in football at present that are happily tolerated.

I could name a few, Joey Barton, Craig Bellamy, El Hadj Diouf, Abramovich, etc.
Big TC

TimR wrote:
There are plenty of unsavoury characters in football at present that are happily tolerated....


Only the one, Tim: Christiano Fucking Ronaldo (at least he's left these shores now)
Big Blue

Apparently Piquet junior is "waiting for the Singapore 2008 furore to die down" before returning to F1.

and I thought he was waiting to learn how to drive a racing car at the top level. The only reason this went undiscovered for so long was because Piquet was that shit that no one questioned how or why he crashed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/...o-end-before-making-comeback.html
       The Motor Forum Forum Index -> Racing Posts Page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2