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Big Blue

Farce Inglaterra, sorry - McLaren

Well, the board can't make their mind up which driver so when it comes to signing off design will we have an engine unit designed to be floating in the chassis and a chassis designed to have the engine as a stressed member?

Perhaps Button would be better off buying Caterham and driving his own car.

http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213...ton-Remains-In-The-Dark-Over-2015
Scouse

Re: Farce Inglaterra, sorry - McLaren

Big Blue wrote:
Well, the board can't make their mind up which driver so when it comes to signing off design will we have an engine unit designed to be floating in the chassis and a chassis designed to have the engine as a stressed member?

Perhaps Button would be better off buying Caterham and driving his own car.

http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213...ton-Remains-In-The-Dark-Over-2015


Didn't Brundle try to start a silly rumour over that at the last qualifying? Button to buy Caterham, get Ross Brawn to run it with Honda engines....
PhilD

If the new season is still 4 months away does it matter that they haven't decided? Is it only a farce because the media (and BB..) are saying it is?
Humphrey The Pug

It seems that there may be an issue with Ron raising enough money to take full ownership of Mclaren.

I'm still amazed he wants Alonso back; he's good however there is more to McLaren't woes than having the correct driver.
Big Blue

PhilD wrote:
If the new season is still 4 months away does it matter that they haven't decided? Is it only a farce because the media (and BB..) are saying it is?


No: the seat fitting alone is no overnight exercise. Sports sponsorship is also fairly immense. No good paying an ad company several million pounds to design your new ad-package based for broadcast in the UK and Japan with a well know sportsman in it and paying top dollar for advance ad space on TV and other channels to the discover your ads will feature a pallid youth from the tundra that only the fans of a sport have even heard of in passing.

Then try telling your commercial executive to go and find new sponsors for the team after a year like McLaren have had. "Great, Ron. I had sponsors X, Y and Z lined up for a package including access to our drivers for £X million if the drivers are Alonso and Button. They told me to fuck off when I couldn't guarantee it would be two of the best know faces in the sport as our 2014 car was clearly a piece of shit and they don't want to be associated with the team without the right drivers."

So yes: it is a farce.
Giant

Wouldn't they do better saving alonsos salary by keeping the drivers they have,and spending it on developing a better car? Seems to me, unless they have a mega budget to do both, hiring Alonso is to mask a crap car, as he has proven capable of doing at Ferrari these past few years.
PhilD

Big Blue wrote:
PhilD wrote:
If the new season is still 4 months away does it matter that they haven't decided? Is it only a farce because the media (and BB..) are saying it is?


No: the seat fitting alone is no overnight exercise. Sports sponsorship is also fairly immense. No good paying an ad company several million pounds to design your new ad-package based for broadcast in the UK and Japan with a well know sportsman in it and paying top dollar for advance ad space on TV and other channels to the discover your ads will feature a pallid youth from the tundra that only the fans of a sport have even heard of in passing.

Then try telling your commercial executive to go and find new sponsors for the team after a year like McLaren have had. "Great, Ron. I had sponsors X, Y and Z lined up for a package including access to our drivers for £X million if the drivers are Alonso and Button. They told me to fuck off when I couldn't guarantee it would be two of the best know faces in the sport as our 2014 car was clearly a piece of shit and they don't want to be associated with the team without the right drivers."

So yes: it is a farce.


or, bearing all that in mind, getting it right is more important than getting it sorted quickly?
Big Blue

No doubt they need to get it right but getting stuff right means planning it in a timely manner. London may well have hosted the best Olympics in history in the summer of 2012 but if they hadn't started planning for it in good time it would have been just as good but irrelevantly so in Spring 2013.
PhilD

I'm not suggesting they wait until Feb but why are you so sure it needs to be done now? I tend to think the current practise of speculation and decisions made   during the season is distracting.
Big Blue

I can't think of anything more disruptive than not knowing who will be on the team in the near to middle distant future myself so maybe we'll beg to differ on that one.
Eff One

Giant wrote:
Wouldn't they do better saving alonsos salary by keeping the drivers they have,and spending it on developing a better car?


Yes.
Big Blue

Eff One wrote:
Giant wrote:
Wouldn't they do better saving alonsos salary by keeping the drivers they have,and spending it on developing a better car?


Yes.


Another moot point and I'm sorry to blow the theory that Alonso is expensive and the money "paid" to him could be put to better use without him being there but it doesn't work like that.

Alonso will bring his money with him, or the money being paid to Alonso only exists because he is there. In 2012 (and 2013 AFAIK) the only 5 drivers being paid directly by the team were the 2 Mercedes Drivers, the 2 Red Bull drivers and Kimi Raikkonen. Alonso's salary has been paid by Philip Morris for all the time he was at Ferrari (as you can see from their new team principal, they have a "relationship") and Santander were a sponsor because he was there (there are commercial tails to sponsorships as well so when a driver leaves in a manner not forseen at the time of the sponsor contract being signed payments continue based on some other mechanics in the contract) and one assumes he will be being paid by some new sponsor that McLaren will doubtless announce when they've finished some exacting paint design for Ron on their new car.
Alf McQueef

If it is accepted practice that all the top drivers have contracts for next season by the season's end, and that therefore all the top seats are taken by then, regardless of logic it is a farce that this has not been done in this case. Especially for an ex-champion, still driving well, and popular with the sponsors - not least in the country of the new engine partner.

It is a total joke and I imagine the ongoing indecision means that serious battle lines have been drawn at board level - which says very little for their cohesion, and a lot about why they have done so poorly on such a large budget.
JohnC

I think that giving JB another year would be the smart move especially since he is so popular in Japan (for a reason unknown to me). Doing so would also let the team concentrate on the car and sponsorship.

Although the driver line up is of extreme importance, the most important part is that McLaren have a competitive car for 2015. Fingers crossed that Honda have come up with a stonking engine/Kers package but McLaren will still have to come up with a class leading chassis.
Big Blue

JohnC wrote:
I think that giving JB another year would be the smart move especially since he is so popular in Japan (for a reason unknown to me).


He has a Japanese girlfriend and is very English.

Whilst I'm here.

http://sniffpetrol.com/2014/12/05...nteen-for-some-time/#.VIG8j8mVHWE
Eff One

Big Blue wrote:
Eff One wrote:
Giant wrote:
Wouldn't they do better saving alonsos salary by keeping the drivers they have,and spending it on developing a better car?


Yes.


Another moot point and I'm sorry to blow the theory that Alonso is expensive and the money "paid" to him could be put to better use without him being there but it doesn't work like that... etc


Quite right, and I should have read the original post in less of a hurry... I do think, though, that the drivers are the least of McLaren's problems. Not even Alonso can save their 2015 season if they build another shit car, while Button and Magnussen are both capable of winning races in a good one. The driver saga is hurting them at a time when they can ill afford it, and I don't see why they think a driver/team relationship that imploded once before can suddenly be all sweetness and light.
Humphrey The Pug

Eff One wrote:
I don't see why they think a driver/team relationship that imploded once before can suddenly be all sweetness and light.


Particularly when you read that it seems Alonso would rather be at Mercedes and the only reason that he is after McLaren is because he has nowhere else to go.

I'm kind of hoping that in the end we find out that Ron has been stringing Alonso along all this time, due to being shafted by him in 2008 (?) and was going to retain Button and KMag all along.
Martin

It is a farce and they should keep Button, at least for their first year with Honda.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
I'm still amazed he wants Alonso back; he's good however there is more to McLaren't woes than having the correct driver.

Other way round for me - I can't understand why Alonso wants to go to McLaren. I know he's not inundated with choices, but they don't seem either to have their act together, or any idea how that might happen in the near future. Leaving Ferrari for them seems like swapping one team in turmoil for another.
PhilD

Consensus seems to be farce then!  

I'm not sure Alonso chose to leave Ferrari.
Humphrey The Pug

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Humphrey The Pug wrote:
I'm still amazed he wants Alonso back; he's good however there is more to McLaren't woes than having the correct driver.

Other way round for me - I can't understand why Alonso wants to go to McLaren. I know he's not inundated with choices, but they don't seem either to have their act together, or any idea how that might happen in the near future. Leaving Ferrari for them seems like swapping one team in turmoil for another.


I think because he has nowhere else to go, hence why; according to rumours and reports, he was only after a year deal at McLaren and was then hoping to hop over to Mercedes in 2016.

I don't think Alonso had a choice about leaving Ferrari.
BeN

Sadly I think the most likely outcome is that Button will go. He's said that he's already prepared for whatever McLaren decides. My bet is that he will walk rather than wait to be pushed.
simonp

Big Blue wrote:
JohnC wrote:
I think that giving JB another year would be the smart move especially since he is so popular in Japan (for a reason unknown to me).


He has a Japanese girlfriend and is very English.


He won his first GP in a Honda Racing car (formerly BAR) and that would've boosted his popularity over there I'd imagine?
Chris M Wanted a V-10

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
I can't understand why Alonso wants to go to McLaren. I know he's not inundated with choices, but they don't seem either to have their act together, or any idea how that might happen in the near future. Leaving Ferrari for them seems like swapping one team in turmoil for another.

Indeed - and maybe what's happening at McLaren now is indicative of why they have underperformed for the past few years - incapable of making a decision, and presumably lacking in leadership that will make a decision.

Relying on the Board to decide who drives..... really...... surely the Team Manager or some other "knowledgeable person" high-up in the organisation should be able to determine who they'd like to drive for them.

I fear that unless the Honda engine is extremely good, McLaren will be in the doldrums for a few more years yet
Sav

Perhaps not a popular view in these circles, but I think McLaren’s driver line-up should be Alonso (which is almost certainly a given) and Magnussen. Button comprehensively outscored and out-qualified Magnussen in 2014, but I like the way that Magnussen has driven this year. I loved his feisty driving at Spa and Monza even though the stewards didn’t agree with it. At Spa he might have inadvertently ran his new teammate off the road at Rivage – let’s hope Nando forgets about that one after his arm-waving at Magnussen.

Generally it would be a poor state of affairs if young, talented drivers like Magnussen got booted out of F1. I thought he was fantastic in the junior formula like World Series by Renault. It would be especially unjust because Marcus Ericsson is staying in F1…who got out-qualified by a complete new-comer to F1, Andre Lotterer at Spa.

Alonso and Button would make for a very strong lineup, but I find the contrast of Alonso and Magnussen more intriguing. We know what Button can give; Magnussen perhaps has potential to improve and would either sink or swim against probably the best driver in the sport. I want to see how that would play out.

I also think McLaren were right to headhunt Alonso. Alonso in my eyes is a more adaptable driver than Button is, it doesn’t matter what the tyres, engine configuration or aerodynamics happen to be – Alonso has always risen to the top. Not necessarily in terms of winning, but in terms of teammate rivalries and adapting to new cars and regulations.

Button is very specific in wanting an understeery balance and a stable rear under braking (much like Vettel), there have been numerous times that Button seems puzzled at balance changes between FP3 and qualifying, and it is those little balance changes that Alonso deals with so well. I mean just look how poor the F2012 was – he almost won a championship in that car. Ferrari at the race weekends executed brilliantly in 2012 as well, but there times like at Malaysia where he took the car where it shouldn’t have been.

Button has had a fantastic stint at McLaren, but I think if McLaren wanted just one veteran driver, Alonso is the stronger driver. It is also worth noting that McLaren has invested considerable sums in Magnussen’s racing career, so dumping him after one season seems unwise.

So, Button gets thrown out of F1? No, and this won’t happen, but Williams should get rid of Massa and Button should return to Williams. Williams enjoyed something of a resurgence in 2014, and a brilliant chassis to match the brilliant drivetrain could see them move closer to Mercedes-Benz – it wouldn’t be a step down for Button based upon the performance of both teams in this totally new era of F1. Bottas mostly outpaced Massa this season, so in a way Massa was again the number 2 driver. Button and Bottas would make a brilliant combination.

In general I want to see the talented young guns in F1. This is why I really want Jolyon Palmer to get an F1 seat as well, but this seems optimistic at the moment - I would worry if a great GP2 champion couldn’t get to Formula 1. Ericsson was anonymous in GP2 and has been anonymous in F1. Palmer should get Ericsson's Sauber seat as Nasr is taking the other Sauber seat - it would be great to see how both of these GP2 chargers would compare in the same Formula 1 team. This also won't happen btw.  
Big Blue

I'm kind of with Sav on this but would like to see JB in a red car for purely selfish reasons. Time moves on and a driver like Magnusson is what the sport needs in a "top" team (not sure that's McLaren at present....).

That said from a marketing perspective in some very key markets (UK and Japan) JB is the sensible choice. This is the precise argument I imagine that they are having in Woking as we idly speculate on the net.
Sav

It is sad to say but Raikkonen looked lost in 2014. He has often stated at how the car didn’t suit him, I wonder if he can rediscover his mojo for 2015.

His comeback was very impressive with two Grand Prix wins, but with this era of regulations being so different, previous form almost seems null void. Button has arguably performed stronger than Raikkonen in 2014 – Button at Ferrari suddenly makes sense…
Chris M Wanted a V-10

I wonder if McLaren are calling Jenson's bluff, and are now waiting for him to announce that he's off to race in another series, which means that McLaren don't have to make a decision on drivers
Sav

Porsche has announced most of their drivers for the three LMP1 machines, Button would fit well in Toyota with his love of Japanese culture, Nissan too.

Button and Davidson in the same car could make a brilliant combination, they know each other well from their BAR days. Davidson is IMO the quickest of the current Toyota WEC drivers and Button has so much more to contribute to motorsport.
Giant

Honda (presumably) won the battle:
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/30328327?ocid=socialflow_twitter
Big Blue

Just read this myself.

Great for JB but if he doesn't cut it vs Nando 2015 will likely be the end of his F1 tenure.
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Big Blue

Post to move back to top.

Someone fuck Tina Wang off.
Humphrey The Pug

Well it appears that JB will be announced this morning as FA's team mate.

Can't wait till next year now, to see how they fare together.
PhilD


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