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PhilD

F1 Game 2016 - Krautland

Still no Doc (is he ok?!) so I will do the honours:

- predict the top ten finishers
- predict who will start from pole position, and who will set the fastest lap
- answer the bonus question: (nicked from 2014) how many German drivers will finish in the top ten?
Big Blue

Still posting on FB, so I guess he's OK, or he's been kidnapped by a European "Mr Big" in Sao Paulo and is waiting for Ecclestone to come up with the cash....
Scouse

Pole: Hamilton
Fastest: Hamilton
Bonus: 2

1) Hamilton
2) Rosberg
3) Vettel
4) Massa
5) Bottas
6) Raikonen
7) Button
8) Riccardo
9) Verstappen
10) Alonso
Big Blue

Pole: Rosberg
Fastest: Hamilton
Bonus: 3

1) Rosberg
2) Hamilton
3) Vettel
4) Raikkonen
5) Bottas  
6) Massa
7) Verstappen
8) Riccardo
9)  Alonso
10) Button
JohnC

Pole: Rosberg
Fastest: Hamilton
Bonus: 3

1) Hamilton
2) Rosberg
3) Vettel
4) Verstappen
5) Ricciardo
6) Raikonen
7) Bottas
8) Perez
9) Hulkenberg
10) Alonso
Eff One

Pole: Rosberg
F/L: Rosberg
Bonus: 3

1. Rosberg
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel
4. Ricciardo
5. Verstappen
6. Raikkonen
7. Hulkenberg
8. Button
9. Sainz
10. Alonso
the other ct

Pole Hamilton
Lap Hamilton
Bonus 3

1 Hamilton
2 Rosberg
3 Ricciardo
4 Vettel
5 Bottas
6 Sainz
7 Hulkenberg
8 Raikkonen
9 Perez
10 Alonso
Chris M Wanted a V-10

Pole: Rosberg
F/Lap: Rosberg
Bonus: 3

1. Hamilton
2. Bosberg
3. Vettel
4. Verstappen
5. Ricciardo
6. Perez
7. Raikkonen
8. Hulkenberg
9. Bottas
10. Alonso
PhilD

Pole - Hamilton
F/L - Hamilton
Bonus - 3

1) Rosberg
2) Hamilton
3) Vettel
4) Ricciardo
5) Raikkonen
6) Bottas
7) Verstappen
8) Massa
9) Alonso
10) Button
Sav

Pole: Rosberg
Fastest lap: Rosberg
Bonus: 3

1. Hamilton
2. Rosberg
3. Verstappen
4. Vettel
5. Ricciardo
6. Raikkonen
7. Bottas
8. Massa
9. Alonso
10. Sainz
BeN

Pole: Rosberg
Fastest: Hamilton
Bonus: 3

1) Rosberg
2) Hamilton
3) Ricciardo
4) Vettel
5) Raikkonen
6) Button
7) Verstappen
8) Perez
9) Hulkenberg
10) Alonso
Sav

Wonderful day for Britain in international racing today. This morning's GP2 race was won by Alex Lynn, Hamilton won the Grand Prix, the superb Alexander Sims won the Spa 24 Hours alongside his co-drivers in the 99 BMW M6 GT3, and Meeke won the Finnish Rally in commanding fashion.
simonp

Big Blue wrote:
Pole: Rosberg
Fastest: Hamilton
Bonus: 3

1) Rosberg
2) Hamilton
3) Vettel
4) Raikkonen
5) Bottas  
6) Massa
7) Verstappen
8) Riccardo
9)  Alonso
10) Button


PhilD wrote:
Pole - Hamilton
F/L - Hamilton
Bonus - 3

1) Rosberg
2) Hamilton
3) Vettel
4) Ricciardo
5) Raikkonen
6) Bottas
7) Verstappen
8) Massa
9) Alonso
10) Button


Sav wrote:
Pole: Rosberg
Fastest lap: Rosberg
Bonus: 3

1. Hamilton
2. Rosberg
3. Verstappen
4. Vettel
5. Ricciardo
6. Raikkonen
7. Bottas
8. Massa
9. Alonso
10. Sainz


JohnC

It's like back to school. Read the question before you start and then read it again to make sure you fully understand it.
Big Blue

We've had this before.  The answer to the questions does not have to be related to your top 10 guess. It gives you a second bite at what might be a shit guess.
Humphrey The Pug

Rosberg proving once again that he can't overtake properly.
JohnC

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
Rosberg proving once again that he can't overtake properly.


and also that he only has one defensive manoeuvre.
Nice Guy Eddie

Given he's proclaiming his innocence and can't get the penalty, it proves he doesn't understand the difference between picking up the racing line and barging someone off the track.
Humphrey The Pug

JohnC wrote:
Humphrey The Pug wrote:
Rosberg proving once again that he can't overtake properly.


and also that he only has one defensive manoeuvre.


I wonder if it is desperation as I'm sure in the past he hasn't been as bad as he has been; must be a shitter though going from being 43 odd points ahead to being 19 behind.

Just proves; as much as it is hard to like him, what a fantastic driver Hamilton is.
PhilD

JohnC wrote:
It's like back to school.


Indeed, there is always one special child.
Humphrey The Pug

http://sniffpetrol.com/2016/08/01...teristic-identified/#.V58SmMtTGM-
Martin

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
Given he's proclaiming his innocence and can't get the penalty, it proves he doesn't understand the difference between picking up the racing line and barging someone off the track.


Agreed.  He either doesn't understand or is just a liar.  He didn't start turning the wheel until he was right at the edge of the track, miles away from leaving a cars width.

I was delighted he didn't get on the podium.  I used to really like Rosberg, but he's gradually gone further and further down in my estimation.
simonp

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
...and barging someone off the track.


It's the German Way, as taught by the Schumacher School Of Racing.
simonp

PhilD wrote:
JohnC wrote:
It's like back to school.


Indeed, there is always one special child.


Or three in this case.
PhilD

simonp wrote:
PhilD wrote:
JohnC wrote:
It's like back to school.


Indeed, there is always one special child.


Or three in this case.


You still haven't got it have you?
Chris M Wanted a V-10

http://sniffpetrol.com/2016/07/04...ass-rosberg-edition/#.V5-cd9dWjcw
Sav

I don’t think Rosberg did much wrong. I never thought Rosberg had a chance of throwing it up the inside, evidently neither did Verstappen with how late he moved over. It takes two to tango, and Verstappen’s late swerve forced Rosberg to take such an acute angle into the corner, had he applied more lock, he risked either locking the fronts or the rears, consequently he would have hit Verstappen. Since 2014 these cars are more susceptible to rear locking with the harvesting of energy on the rear axle, it may have looked like Rosberg could have applied more lock, but in combination with the brake-by-wire system, it doesn’t take much for that control to be lost.

Indeed, Rosberg’s move was committed and ruthless – and when you can surprise Verstappen under braking – you’re doing something right. It is usually Verstappen hauling it up the inside with super-late braking, and edging someone off the track. Verstappen was apparently “forced off the track” - interesting term. I don’t think he was forced off the track. Verstappen expected Rosberg to go straight on, illustrated by him trying to tuck back underneath to cross back over for the exit. The only problem is that a silver Merc was parked at the apex. At this point Verstappen voluntarily decided to drive onto the run-off area, he got a great exit off the hairpin and almost gained the position back. Verstappen could have yielded at the hairpin, indeed had that been grass or gravel, he wouldn’t have had a choice in the matter. Even without the fear of locking up, Rosberg commanded the right to dictate where he turned in, and Verstappen was only “forced” onto the run-off because he was hoping to tuck back underneath Rosberg.

The Porsche Supercup race also had the ridiculous situation where Swen Muller took to the the run-off to pass Matteo Cairoli at turn 1 for the lead. Muller deliberately used the run-off as an extension of the track to get a straighter run, but Muller was rightly penalised. Muller was not forced there; he made a calculating decision to hang it out on the outside to pass Cairoli. The inconsistency is again a glaring issue even with the same stewards on the same day.

It would be easy to compare the incident at Hockenheim with the last lap at Austria. I don’t think they are comparable, and not just because the positions were reversed – overtaking as opposed to defending. At Austria Rosberg wasn’t pinched to the inside, Hamilton simply came down the outside and Rosberg dirtily blocked Hamilton’s attempt to turn-in. It was overdone by Rosberg when he only needed to slow up the middle of the apex, forcing Hamilton to get a poor exit. Rosberg had every opportunity to turn-in normally but deliberately did not. Plus if you’re going to drive dirtily, at least pull it off successfully, rather than ending up with the stricken car.

I think a worrying precedent was set last Sunday; it was a little gamesmanship and tactics being deployed by two great drivers. Just like in wider life, there often has to be a whining “victim” who really wasn’t a victim by any means – someone came out on top. This same driver drove Raikkonen off the track several times in Austin last year with no penalty. Now, I’m saying that Verstappen should have been penalised, it was racing, but this cherry-picked approach to incidents is getting wearisome.
Chris M Wanted a V-10

Sav wrote:
Verstappen was apparently “forced off the track” - interesting term. I don’t think he was forced off the track. Verstappen expected Rosberg to go straight on,.....


From what I have heard of the stewards' decision, it seems to be largely based on the basis that Rosberg took a totally different line to the one he usually took at this corner.  That is hardly surprising, as he was defending (blocking?) an attemted overtake.  Whether or not it was a fair thing to do is another matter.  However the stewards appear to think that Verstappen was entitled to take a wider line around the corner whilst remaining on the track, and therefore that Rosberg should have given him space, by adopting the line he had previously taken around this corner.
PhilD

Sav wrote:


I think a worrying precedent was set last Sunday; it was a little gamesmanship and tactics being deployed by two great drivers. Just like in wider life, there often has to be a whining “victim” who really wasn’t a victim by any means – someone came out on top. This same driver drove Raikkonen off the track several times in Austin last year with no penalty. Now, I’m saying that Verstappen should have been penalised, it was racing, but this cherry-picked approach to incidents is getting wearisome.


Agree, they need to save the penalties for the serious incidents and serial offenders (warn drivers to calm down like a yellow card). Feels like every attempted overtake ends with a penalty and soon they'll stop trying.
Nice Guy Eddie

I think your all sorts of wrong on that one Sav.

My memory's vague of the incident now but at the time I called it and it seems all in the know called it too.

Open and closed wheel racing you shouldn't compare otherwise they'll be pushing to pass and multiple line changes that just isn't safe for open wheelers.
Humphrey The Pug

Rosbergs passing attempt was amateur hour, it was awful and all sorts of wrong.
Martin

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
Rosbergs passing attempt was amateur hour, it was awful and all sorts of wrong.


It was and then he lied about it rather than just take the punishment.  Not the first time.
Scouse

Martin wrote:
Humphrey The Pug wrote:
Rosbergs passing attempt was amateur hour, it was awful and all sorts of wrong.


It was and then he lied about it rather than just take the punishment.  Not the first time.


It was just shit. He made no attempt to make the apex and didn't give Max any racing room, just like he did against Hamilton (where at least he had the excuse of dodgy brakes)
Sav

Chris M Wanted a V-10 wrote:
Sav wrote:
Verstappen was apparently “forced off the track” - interesting term. I don’t think he was forced off the track. Verstappen expected Rosberg to go straight on,.....


From what I have heard of the stewards' decision, it seems to be largely based on the basis that Rosberg took a totally different line to the one he usually took at this corner.  That is hardly surprising, as he was defending (blocking?) an attemted overtake.  Whether or not it was a fair thing to do is another matter.  However the stewards appear to think that Verstappen was entitled to take a wider line around the corner whilst remaining on the track, and therefore that Rosberg should have given him space, by adopting the line he had previously taken around this corner.


Rosberg had no option to take a totally different line into the corner, exacerbated by the fact that Verstappen swerved at a very late stage, meaning Rosberg was forced to go even further to the inside. I don’t doubt there was an element of malicious intent to block Verstappen turning in, but at the same time, he was forced to turn at such an acute angle, he was perilously close to locking up and consequently running into Verstappen.

Verstappen just got out-smarted with this one; he would have blocked the inside if he thought Rosberg might come through. Verstappen could have backed off once he realised Rosberg wasn’t going to turn-in in a conventional manner, but he decided to use the run-off to get a rather decent exit.

Ed, I broadly agree with your point about the pitfalls of open and closed wheel being compared. However last Sunday in Porsche Supercup and F1, it was the same story with the driver behind using the run-off to get a straighter exit. This is also relevant to track limit policing in the future, because the scenario at Hockenheim may allow the pursuing driver in future to use run-off because he was “forced off”. The throttle works both ways, if there was grass or gravel on these tarmac run-off areas, would anybody dare take to the run off?

If track limits are relaxed to a greater degree in the future, and this seems to be the future direction, the run-off becomes diminished because in certain turns drivers will use the run-off as the default line. That reduces the margin for error, and Hockenheim illustrated the pitfalls of allowing cars to run beyond the white line – cars get launched due to the uneven surfaces. I would like the run-off areas themselves to have genuine punishment for drivers, consequently this whole rather wearisome subject of track limits would fix itself.
JohnC

Had Rosberg locked up on the entry to the corner, I think he would have got away with it but he seems quite in control and doesn't make even the slightest attempt to turn - this just mimics what he did to Hamilton and I think he was right to be punished.

Rosberg doesn't really handle the pressure of being behind as well as he should and I get the sense that desperation takes over a bit when he is on the back foot.
Humphrey The Pug

JohnC wrote:
Had Rosberg locked up on the entry to the corner, I think he would have got away with it but he seems quite in control and doesn't make even the slightest attempt to turn - this just mimics what he did to Hamilton and I think he was right to be punished.

Rosberg doesn't really handle the pressure of being behind as well as he should and I get the sense that desperation takes over a bit when he is on the back foot.


Yep, it looked as though Rosberg just ploughed on intentionally, Hamilton is very good at overtakes; late braking, taking the inside line, still hitting the apex and then taking a wider line out, forcing his opponent wide; the proper way to do it, fair and in control.
PhilD

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
I think your all sorts of wrong on that one Sav.

My memory's vague of the incident now but at the time I called it and it seems all in the know called it too.

.


http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/...mits-and-f1s-capacity-to-surprise

Looks like our Sav is in good company!

oh and Antony Davidson who thinks "like many others" that the penalty is quite harsh

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/...n-gp-penalty-for-verstappen-clash
Nice Guy Eddie

With all respect, WTF do they know!
Big Blue

I thought it was harsh watching it live and if it had been Verstappen making that same move with Nico making the late defence it would have been "so refreshing to see this Young Turk making these kind of overtakes despite the late defence by Rosberg".

Nico can't win: drives calmly to 2nd: he's shit. Gets all aggressive: he's a turd. I've met him and of all the conceited little twats on the grid he's one of the few that you'd invite to a barbecue and he'd just muck in and cook the sausages, talk general bollocks and avoid any F1-I-am shit with the guests.
Sav

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
JohnC wrote:
Had Rosberg locked up on the entry to the corner, I think he would have got away with it but he seems quite in control and doesn't make even the slightest attempt to turn - this just mimics what he did to Hamilton and I think he was right to be punished.

Rosberg doesn't really handle the pressure of being behind as well as he should and I get the sense that desperation takes over a bit when he is on the back foot.


Yep, it looked as though Rosberg just ploughed on intentionally, Hamilton is very good at overtakes; late braking, taking the inside line, still hitting the apex and then taking a wider line out, forcing his opponent wide; the proper way to do it, fair and in control.


You make a very good point. Two years ago at Hockenheim Hamilton went three-wide with Raikkonen and Ricciardo, and he managed to pass both of them at the same hairpin. He made slight contact with Raikkonen at the point of turn-in, but it was very minor. Critically, the pass didn’t get the attention of the stewards and it wasn’t overdone. Hamilton is the racer’s racer; I believe with time he wouldn’t look out of place in some US motorsport series where it’s racier than F1.

Hamilton also defends so brilliantly at times. The 2014 Bahrain GP and the opening laps of the 2007 Malaysian GP are case studies in defending.

Big Blue wrote:
I thought it was harsh watching it live and if it had been Verstappen making that same move with Nico making the late defence it would have been "so refreshing to see this Young Turk making these kind of overtakes despite the late defence by Rosberg".



Indeed. If it was Verstappen who had passed Rosberg, people would have lauded Verstappen for catching Rosberg napping under braking. Good old Rosberg, he’s weak again.

I’m not a particular fan of Rosberg, but I thought he was treated harshly in Hockenheim for something even five years ago would have been a non-issue. Almost anything now results in a stewards investigation, and rather than the cars harming the sport, the needless over-stewarding is in danger of killing tactics and gamesmanship used by racing drivers. If you whine enough, the other guy will probably get a penalty.

I recall the absurdity of the run-off area in Russia at turn 2. Drivers in practice got reprimands because they didn’t adhere to the correct way of driving past the bollard. In practice. There wouldn’t a need for a bollard if the run-off area punished drivers going beyond beyond the white line. I was watching the IndyCar race at Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course last Sunday and it had grass and gravel in all run off areas. Miraculously, nobody dared to use the run-off; they lifted off pretty quickly as the gap diminished.
Tim

Sav I think your final point is a good one, the replacement of grass and gravel with tarmac has had a huge negative effect on the racing.

It's also made the tracks into bland featureless identikits.
Scouse

I agree with a lot of what Sav says. Doesn't change the fact that it was a shit overtake. Had he made the apex, then run Verstappen out of road on the way out it would have been good.
Sav

I don’t necessarily disagree with what you say, Scouse. Occasionally Rosberg’s attempts to overtake can end messily, whereas Hamilton can pull a few questionable tricks himself and even nudge Rosberg like at Austin last year, but he more often than not gets away with it. I always thought that Rosberg was a fantastic racer in junior formula and in his earlier years in F1 – he wasn’t calamitous. Perhaps the pressure of being in a championship-winning car alongside someone like Hamilton is making him overstep the mark in wheel-to-wheel combat. Incidents like Spa 2014, Austria 2015, Germany 2016 and his mistakes during the Hungarian and Italian GP’s of 2014 were not very Nico.

With track limits, I don’t want some nostalgic adoption of gravel and grass everywhere. Indeed, I wouldn’t want gravel and grass to return to Eau Rouge and Blanchimont at Spa, due to the sheer cornering speeds of modern racing cars and the risk of cars flipping in gravel traps at those corners. The FIA needs to look at more sustainable solutions than sensors in kerbs, killer run-off kerbs and stewards watching every minute incident. The FIA has been fantastic at increasing safety at race tracks over the decades, and that work must continue, but at the same time, the dangers of drivers using tarmac run-off areas as an extension of the track must also be considered, along with the never-ending arguments they are generating.

Grass and gravel should definitely be part of the future solution, but whatever happens, running-off beyond the white line needs to be a definitive disadvantage.
DetmoldDick

Perhaps some sort of soft barriers that would possibly damage an offending car but not cause an injury.
Nice Guy Eddie

DetmoldDick wrote:
Perhaps some sort of soft barriers that would possibly damage an offending car but not cause an injury.


Do remember that 'proper' tracks need to be used most of the year to be viable and therefore having barriers that damage cars might seem a little excessive for someone trying to run a fun cup or MX-5 in a starter series on 10k a year.

As someone who does a few trackdays in my own car I really do welcome barriers that are a fair distance away from the track and a load of tarmac instead of gravel that has a nasty habit of flipping cars onto their roofs.
Big Blue

The solution is easy. A sensor in the car covering the area inside the inside edge of the rear tyres. If one of the sensors sees a white bit, ok. If they both see a white bit the ignition is retarded.

In all honesty these drivers are supposed at the pinnacle of the sport: they should be told the white line is the track limit, drive within it or we'll add 1s for each transgression and disallow any quali lap where you demonstrate an inability to drive on the track. This attitude needs to start in karting as these drivers have been taking the piss since day one on the track.

How do you fancy passing your driving test having mounted the pavement several times and driven at oncoming vehicles across the centre line? Leaving the track limits amounts to the same thing.
Humphrey The Pug

I hate the way that in some areas of a track it is deemed fine to exceed the track limits whereas on others it isn't; for clarification and ease it should be a blanket "do not exceed the track limits anywhere".
BeN

Big Blue wrote:
The solution is easy. A sensor in the car covering the area inside the inside edge of the rear tyres. If one of the sensors sees a white bit, ok. If they both see a white bit the ignition is retarded.

In all honesty these drivers are supposed at the pinnacle of the sport: they should be told the white line is the track limit, drive within it or we'll add 1s for each transgression and disallow any quali lap where you demonstrate an inability to drive on the track. This attitude needs to start in karting as these drivers have been taking the piss since day one on the track.

How do you fancy passing your driving test having mounted the pavement several times and driven at oncoming vehicles across the centre line? Leaving the track limits amounts to the same thing.


Enforcement is key. If the law is laid down and all such transgressions are punished very soon these drivers will know what can or cannot be done and where the line (pun not intended) is. As it is it seems very selective.

It's a bit like football, in the sense that it's all well and good saying that foul language will result in punishment but referees often turn a blind eye to the constant swearing. If they started handing out red cards to the likes of Rooney for spewing expletives eventually they will get the message. Of course it will result in chaos at the start but you still have to drive home the point.

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