| Archive for The Motor Forum talking cars since 2006 |
| DradusContact |
Electric car finally in sight? Maybehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8315947.stmI remain to be convinced by any electric car until i see them on the road. All the manufacturers claim they will have one out soon, but they never materialise. |
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| Scouse |
Did you see the size of that charging cable? 
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| DradusContact |
But apparently that can charge it in about an hour.
It reminded me of the cable they attach to the drilling platform in 'The Abyss' |
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| TimR |
There's a number of major problems with electric cars but from an environmental problem the biggest one is - How do you produce the electric required to charge and run the cars?
In this country I would suggest that most of the electricity would come from oil, coal and gas burning power stations. So the electric car is a dead end unless we go 100% 'renewable'. |
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| Grampa |
...let alone the cost in both environmental and financial terms of building an infrastructure that can cope - can you imagine what would happen to the existing set up if we all started to recharge our cars - it can barely cope with everyone making a cup of tea at half time in a World Cup final. I think looking at electric cars in the form they are now is a very blinkered view. |
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| DradusContact |
Generating electricy in a power plant is much more efficient than doing it in a car though, even if it is coal. | ||||
| Twelfth Monkey |
'Build Your Dreams'?
I laugh a bitter laugh. |
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| woof woof |
I'll believe it when I see it.
I suppose that this sort of technology raises practical as well as the usual dubious environmental ones. How do you charge the thing? Where do you plug it in and lay the cable? Who is liable if someone trips over it? How do you stop no win no fee lawyers from suing you when someone falls over the cable in the dark? How do you stop the cable being accidentally or maliciously damaged or stolen? What do you do if you haven't got a drive never mind a garage? How do you recharge the thing when away from home? Even 10 minutes at a charging point will create havoc and long queues if we all buy these cars. I can't see electric cars as anything but fantasy outside of trials in big cities with no expense spared. It'll never work practically in real life in places like Middlesbrough or any real life village, town or regional city without truly massive effort, and we just wont put that money and effort into it will we? |
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| Grampa |
Maybe - but does that account for the massive infrastructure that would have to be built for us all to be able to run electric cars? - surely it'd take years to get it up to the required capacity - and do we have enough coal? |
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| TimR |
Plus we'd have to build more power plants and last time I looked they were mainly made from concrete, a material not known for its environmental friendliness. |
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| Grampa |
Yes - that's what I meant about the environmental cost in my earlier post + plus all the transport, energy etc to get them built.
Bit like getting an 'environmentally friendly' car from Japan - surely a lot of it is negated not only by building it in the first place but also by the environmental cost of getting it to the UK. |
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| TimR |
Yeah, I've been boring everyone with that for a couple of years now. I said in another post that it's all very well Crazy Dave turning up at his party conference in a Lexus LS600h but he'd be more environmentally friendly turning up in a Jag (or even better, on his bike) AND he could show some support for local industry. |
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| DradusContact |
More than one way to generate electricity though. | ||||
| TimR |
Not disputing that but it seems that the most widespread current methods are fairly polluting.
What do you suggest - on a realistic level? |
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| DradusContact |
For homes its simple. Put a solar panel on the roof of each house. Doesnt need any maintenance, doesnt take up any space and would be fairly unobtrusive. This would offset a large portion of the average homes needs.
For the rest its more complicated, there is no one magic solution. Nuclear is not the answer, fission anyway. If they can crack fusion we might stand a chance, otherswise fission is too messy, dangerous and doesnt provide the amount of power needed. People forget there is only a limited amount of nuclear materials in the ground. |
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| woof woof |
We can either genetically enhance hamsters and build a series of giant electricity generating hamster wheels or maybe something can be done utilising chavs and the morbidly obese? | ||||
| DradusContact |
Now your thinking outside the box. 
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| Dr. Hfuhruhurr |
Indeed - you could use giant fat-chav wheels. Or put them on a treadmill with a burger hanging just out of reach. |
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| GonnaBreakABuggy |
Not forgetting the energy and materials required to put a battery pack in the cars.
And motors packed with rare earth metals... |
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| TimR |
Solar is a good start for homes but remember that if everyone suddenly rushes out to get the panels you'll create a huge demand that will lead to new factories (made with large helpings of concrete) and lots of pollution from transportation.
I saw a programme on TV recently about building skyscrapers and the intention to put fairly large wind turbines on the top of some. It occurred to me that it must be extremely simple to put a few thousand small waterwheels in the soil pipes (obviously from sinks, not toilets  ) to help provide electricity that way?
I imagine you could have one every, say, metre of vertical drop. Imagine that in a 100 storey tower block? |
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| DradusContact |
That might have some potential, but i doubt the pipe drops straight down all the way, it would have some mega force if it did by the time it got to the bottom. | ||||
| BeN |
I still think hydrogen fuel cells are the way to go. From what I believe the biggest obstacle to that now is cost, but if someone decides to make an investment now that will surely drop to acceptable levels.
It's just a matter of time, and who. |
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| TimR |
I'm sure it doesn't but even if there's a 90 degree bend every couple of floors the water still has to get down from every storey. You could have them fitted to houses as well. I'm talking something the size of a turbo so it wouldn't take up much extra space at all - you have them installed where the pipe goes through the gap between floors for instance. |
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| DradusContact |
Im sure that, or something similar could work. Its ideas like that that made this country what it is. They just dont seem to come out any more.
I always wonder why steam engines eject the steam out the funnel, surely they could re-route it in a loop, only needing the to fuel keep the boiler hot. |
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| Mike Amos |
What size condensor would you need to fit and where would it go? | ||||
| PG |
I'd really like to believe BYD's claims, but I can't help thinking that a 250 mile range and 10 minute charge cycle is all a magnificent publicity stunt for the company. Which is a shame as Warren Buffet is not known for investing in lemons is he? So they must be working on some interesting stuff and just wanted some publicity.
I love the bit in the video where they show the car being charged and then unplugged. There appeared to be no on/off switch on the plug or the box (making me think it was just a box with some wire coming out of it. Similarly the fantastic shot where they show the two wind turbines on the roof of the recharge station as if implying that they are charging the car is pure Hollywood. Those two mini-turbines would take a few days to recharge the car I suspect. And no shots of the battery, motor or anything else? Why not? Reminds me of the Lightning car at the Geneva show. Despite us asking very politely they would not lift the bonnet or open the doors...... |
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| GonnaBreakABuggy |
Cost, and infrastructure, and a big chunk of weight to add to vehicles, and the reduced range, needing a bigger tank, which compromises interior space and adds more weight. The only way to get the energy density anywhere near normal fuel is to run it at immense compression, or liquify it, but then you need stronger or actively cooled, tanks and you lose massive amounts of energy compressing the damn stuff to start with. Oh, and Hydrogen, being such a small molecule, can leak through the tank. How pissed off would you be if you filled the car up and a week later half if it has gone even though you've been a good boy and cycled to work? |
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| DaveGibson |
I read recently that if you left a hydrogen fuelled car in the airport car park for two weeks, all of it would have leaked away by the time you got back from holiday. According to the report on the Honda FCX Clarity, in last week's Autocar, apart from infrastructure issues, the biggest problem is the huge cost of the fuel tank, which must stand 5000psi. In the Clarity, it holds 171 litres of fuel which would otherwise occupy 60,000 litres at normal pressure. At least that amount of hydrogen only weighs 3.5Kg, if it were petrol, it would be almost 140Kg. |
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| GonnaBreakABuggy |
Just a pity the energy per litre in that 171 litres is about 1.2MJ/L.
Whereas 1 litre of petrol holds 32.4MJ/L |
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| PG |
It would have to be the open plan long stay as well. You can't leave hydrogen powered vehicles in multi-storeys or confined car parks due to the fire risk of the leaking hydrogen. So not a very practical city car proposition at the moment. Until somebody finds a way to store hydrogen at a molecular level in some kind of chemical grid (and I think there is research going on into this), hydrogen isn't really viable as a storable energy source. |
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| DradusContact |
Regardless of what you think though, something has to change as oil is a finite resource. You can mock these cars till your blue in the face but eventually something will have to replace oil. | ||||
| GonnaBreakABuggy |
Yes, but not hydrogen. | ||||
| "him" |
I think rubber bands are an under developed power-source... | ||||
| Dr. Hfuhruhurr |
Under-developed is about right! | ||||
| GonnaBreakABuggy |
No, no, surely it's about light? | ||||
| "him" |
Admittedly, range is an issue -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYCu4i1daPI And I am not entirely happy with the styling... |
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| GonnaBreakABuggy |
Or the suspension.
Or the construction. Or the acceleration. I'm really not keen on the steering and brakes either. |
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| "him" |
You always were hard to please...
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| GonnaBreakABuggy |
Me? Picky?
Nah.
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| DaveGibson |
It's already feasible by using metallic hydrides or by using something like ethanol and reforming it. As usual, the problem then is the amount of enegy needed to free the hydrogen so it can be used as a fuel. |
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| Blarno |
Bio-Ethanol or methanol.
Simples! |
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| Matt |
Exxon (are they ESSO?) are advertising that they're researching the use of algae for their biofuel, which seems as good an idea as any. | ||||
| Blarno |
It will be a sad day when the internal combustion engine breathes it's last.
Can you imagine an all-electric trackday? Duller than a wet weekend in Grimsby. With Gordon Brown. |
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| Giant |
It isn't steam ejected from the funnel but sooty, carbon heavy, carcinergenic smoke... |