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Racing Teatray

Don & Hilly

After conducting midnight mothageddon last night, it was so late that the inaugural Donald & Hillary Show was kicking off on TV, so given we were wide-awake and probably giddy with cleaning product fumes, we watched the debate…

Anyone else catch it?
cbeaks1

Nope. If I want to watch pensioners squabble I can visit my parents.
Twelfth Monkey

I'm just hoping that trumper is as crass as seems his natural way - all the way to election time.  He's (and I hope you won't mind me cutting to the chase here) a cunt.
Scouse

I'd say they were as bad as each other. A massive bomb under the stage at the next 'debate' would be the best result for the whole world.
Frank Bullitt

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
I'm just hoping that trumper is as crass as seems his natural way - all the way to election time.  He's (and I hope you won't mind me cutting to the chase here) a cunt.


I said something comparable about a 'colleague' here until another colleague brought to my attention that this can't be the case, as there is no use for said individual. Still feels better saying it.

Didn't watch it but recorded it - I've said it before and I'll say it again, I suspect America will vote Trump: I'm probably 70-30 on he likelihood.
Michael

It'll be HRC but she's not that much better.
Giant

As ever with Presedential elections, they drag on for ever. When is the actual day of reckoning?
Blarno

I'd rather watch my life force slowly ebbing away than give that Shredded Wheat headed sausage in a suit the oxygen of more publicity.
Racing Teatray

It was actually quite compulsive viewing. But she really needs to find a way to speak in words of one syllable and to do so in a way that sounds accessible and not patronising. If she could do that, she'd ace it.

As it stands, she doesn't unfortunately. Although she did better than I feared she would. She managed to get a good proportion of the audience to laugh at Trump at one point.
Bob Sacamano

Two awful candidates and I think Trump is going to win it. Never thought I'd say that 6 months ago but Hillary has fought a truly terrible campaign.
Big Blue

Trump will win because Americans are voting.
Nice Guy Eddie

Given how large a gap Trump has clawed back in the last few months it would be foolish to bet against him.

Still at least I have no say in the matter, the choice of Trump or Clinton from an electorate the size of the US is a rather poor show.

Anyway, compared to today, can it get much worse for the US on the world scene with either of these two?
Grampa

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
I'm just hoping that trumper is as crass as seems his natural way - all the way to election time.  He's (and I hope you won't mind me cutting to the chase here) a cunt.



Big Blue wrote:
Trump will win because Americans are voting.


I think these two statements are inextricably linked  
Frank Bullitt

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
Anyway, compared to today, can it get much worse for the US on the world scene with either of these two?


From one perspective the USA would likely become less 'involved' on the international stage (Trump) but I don't think that will be a strength for them ultimately. On the other hand, as much as we may dislike the US intervention and the impact, sometimes it could prove useful - I suspect WW2 would have been less likely to take place, for example, if the US has been more international-looking at the time.

The cynic in me suggests that between Trump and Putin they will partition the axis (poor choice of word in the context of my last para) world East and West and do what they like in their sphere of influence. Which sounds lovely.
Bryan M

We watched it, as it was on most channels in Canada. It was compulsive viewing with Trump just repeating himself a lot
Racing Teatray

Looks like the whole crazy FBI thing is putting us all at risk of Trumpaggedon again.

2016 could be shaping up to be a really bad year in history.
Nice Guy Eddie

Gotta blame the democrats for putting Up Hillary who you might not be able to call a criminal but certainly dodgy and if the republicans had anyone but Trump it'd be a landslide victory.

It's all just a bad joke
Racing Teatray

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
Gotta blame the democrats for putting Up Hillary who you might not be able to call a criminal but certainly dodgy and if the republicans had anyone but Trump it'd be a landslide victory.

It's all just a bad joke


I really don't find her dodgy. Uninspiring certainly. Dodgy? Hard to see why.
DetmoldDick

Racing Teatray wrote:

I really don't find her dodgy. Uninspiring certainly. Dodgy? Hard to see why.


Take your pick out of any of these:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/ne...ry-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

There are also a huge number of mysterious deaths around the Clintons.

She is a really nasty piece of work.
Bob Sacamano

Racing Teatray wrote:
Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
Gotta blame the democrats for putting Up Hillary who you might not be able to call a criminal but certainly dodgy and if the republicans had anyone but Trump it'd be a landslide victory.

It's all just a bad joke


I really don't find her dodgy. Uninspiring certainly. Dodgy? Hard to see why.


She really is limping towards the finishing line due to the amount of baggage she's dragging behind her - whether it's the email or Benghazi scandals, the general fog of patronage/revenge she's cultivated among her staff, or just the general feeling the Democratic party is in some way being forced to repay a debt they owe her from Bill's time in the office and the support she gave him at his most troubled time. The Republicans could have put up anybody other than Trump and they'd have walked it. As it is the choice is between two terrible candidates and perhaps Trump is worse, but not by much.
I have the feeling that Clinton will scrape a win but she'll be a dead President walking, unable to accomplish anything and will spend her single term mired in controversy and legal challenges.
Tim

Racing Teatray wrote:

I really don't find her dodgy. Uninspiring certainly. Dodgy? Hard to see why.


+1

I think the email thing has been sorted - the latest one is unrelated (at least it's not directly related to her, rather a former aide) and I fail to see why the Benghazi 'scandal' is entirely her fault unless she actually forced people to be somewhere against their will?

Trump is hardly a good opponent and from some of what I've read he appears to have quite a few issues that haven't been widely reported, not least his apparent love of Putin!
Big Blue

Sorry but I've seen the fringes of this campaign and if I were a Mexican or Syrian refugee I'd be running back home. I haven't seen one word of policy from either camp beyond a wall being built across the Mexican border and it seems to be a campaign of personality failures as opposed to political suitability.

Basically the USA appears to the outside world as fucked up large style and ripe for colonisation of various areas by people with some idea of leadership and structure, be they liberal do-gooders or nut-job dictatorships.
Racing Teatray

DetmoldDick wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:

I really don't find her dodgy. Uninspiring certainly. Dodgy? Hard to see why.


Take your pick out of any of these:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/ne...ry-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

There are also a huge number of mysterious deaths around the Clintons.

She is a really nasty piece of work.


If you consider the quite extraordinarily huge amount of time, effort and money (tens of millions of dollars) expended by people who are at least as powerful and influential as the Clintons in trying to find even one smoking gun, it's actually quite striking how very, very little has turned up. And frankly her husband's philandering is hardly her scandal.

It's possible that no other candidate ever has been quite so scrutinised and raked over with quite such vitriol.
Big Blue

I don't think the Clintons are powerful and influential. The people paying their way for 30 years are. That's why many Americans are anti- and why Trump has any kind of share of the vote, let alone a chance of the majority.

As Bob said if the GOP had put up some preppie lawyer with a shiney-straight toothed set of children and a fawning wife the GOP would be 80-20 in the lead. However the people of the GOP didn't want the party to offer them a candidate; they wanted to select one that wasn't GOP-moulded. Last time the GOP members selected a candidate of their own we got Reagan. This time they've gone a step further to full-nut-job as opposed to smiling actor.

If the demmycrats had chosen any other candidate against Trump they too would be 80-20 ahead. You need to understand that many Americans are NOT prepared to go from a black president to a woman president with no WASP male in between. Clinton is there because party funders say she is so they can retain control. Americans don't like that idea as I said above.
Racing Teatray

Oh I am sure that bigotry has lots to do with it.
Tim

Big Blue wrote:
.........beyond a wall being built across the Mexican border.......


I heard the end of something on Radio 4 on Saturday that said a growing number of Canadians are asking for a wall to be built on their southern border to repel the hordes of Americans wanting to escape a Trump presidency.
I presume it was a light hearted comment but it would be a good riposte to the insane wig wearer.
Grampa

The whole situation is becoming ridiculous - Americans I know personally are just embarrassed by the whole charade.

If nothing else, the interviews you see with some of the US general public make you realise just how stupid some of them are - mind you I discovered that a few years ago by going on a holiday where the majority of guests were Americans - there were times when it was hard to keep a straight face.
Frank Bullitt

Racing Teatray wrote:
DetmoldDick wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:

I really don't find her dodgy. Uninspiring certainly. Dodgy? Hard to see why.


Take your pick out of any of these:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/ne...ry-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

There are also a huge number of mysterious deaths around the Clintons.

She is a really nasty piece of work.


If you consider the quite extraordinarily huge amount of time, effort and money (tens of millions of dollars) expended by people who are at least as powerful and influential as the Clintons in trying to find even one smoking gun, it's actually quite striking how very, very little has turned up. And frankly her husband's philandering is hardly her scandal.

It's possible that no other candidate ever has been quite so scrutinised and raked over with quite such vitriol.


I watched the Michael Moore programme on C4 the other night (Trumpsville or something like that) and, as always he was 80% erudite and 20% embarrassing but his whole ensamble on Hilary was fascinating - of course she comes with baggage, which is easy to spot, but she also comes with plenty of 'good stuff' too. Worth a watch for anyone with an open mind
Tim

Grampa wrote:
The whole situation is becoming ridiculous - Americans I know personally are just embarrassed by the whole charade.


Radio 4 interviewed a card carrying Republican who had been a senior part of George W Bush's team who said he was going to be voting for Clinton and was embarrassed by the current goings on.

Everything that's been reported as coming out of Trump's mouth has IMO been divisive, from the building of the wall to Mexico to his refusal to accept the result and the allegations of widespread electoral fraud (which, lets face it, works both ways).

As far as I can see from across here he's doing his utmost to discredit the whole system.

I find it laughable that an arrogant multi-billionaire can credulously claim to be speaking for 'the common man' - if he was then he'd be poor like the rest of us.
PG

Trump is like a US Berlusconi. Rich, sleazebag "tendencies", borderline insane. Clinton is like a US Gordon Brown. A huge sense of entitlement to govern that dominates everything.  

Two useless candidates who will be in their 70's as President. I am sure that a great many Americans would like to tick "none of the above".

As already said, any normal candidate would have walked it.  But the trouble is that the current primary system seems to eliminate normal candidates.
gonnabuildabuggy

PG wrote:
But the trouble is that the current primary system seems to eliminate normal candidates.


This.  Plus too many "normal" candidates mean they share votes whilst the extremes stand alone for votes.
Tim

I listened to Rich Hall's US election comedy show on Radio 4 last night and got the impression that none of the original candidates was actually any good. There was a particular comment about Ted Cruz that was quite funny.


On reflection though I'm starting to think that Trump wouldn't be such a bad President (relatively speaking).
I think he would probably go along with most of what the Republicans want to do in Congress/Senate and I really don't think he's particularly interested in a lot of subjects unless they directly relate to Donald J Trump.
In fact I reckon his main aim as President would be to ensure that his wealth goes from $2B (as estimated by independent observers) to $3B.
If he achieved that I think he'd consider it to be a successful presidency.
Big Blue

It seems a likely outcome is that the Senate becomes massively a Republican majority with Hilary as president. This would leave her as a seriously ineffectual one-termer and just means USA becoming even more undesirable a place.
Racing Teatray

Not sure the Republicans are going to have a Senate landslide.
Frank Bullitt

Tim wrote:
I find it laughable that an arrogant multi-billionaire can credulously claim to be speaking for 'the common man' - if he was then he'd be poor like the rest of us.


Don't - that ex banker and devout capitalist managed to persuade lots of the U.K. population that he was just a decent beer-drinking man doing his bit for working people up and down the country. Undoubtably a significant proportion of the 52% bought into that (all (...and I mean all...) the people in my team who voted Brexit see Farage as a decent, honest, working man who is a 'bit like them'). Trump has learned from this; be divisive, be anti-establishment and blame an easy enemy for all your ills.

Adolf Hitler had some success in the 1930's with exactly the same approach
Bob Sacamano

Frank Bullitt wrote:


Adolf Hitler had some success in the 1930's with exactly the same approach


Godwin's Law really is quite incontrovertible.  
Frank Bullitt

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:


Adolf Hitler had some success in the 1930's with exactly the same approach


Godwin's Law really is quite incontrovertible.  


Didn't need too many posts to get there though, especially as we are referring to a leader who is talking his country up by virtue of removing undesirable from the population who 'take' all the good stuff.

Goodwin's law is more relevant if we start by talking about the shade of grey on a BMW's kidney grills
PhilD

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:


Adolf Hitler had some success in the 1930's with exactly the same approach


Godwin's Law really is quite incontrovertible.  


Apart from when Niwdog's Law applies.
Tim

Frank Bullitt wrote:
[....that ex banker and devout capitalist managed to persuade lots of the U.K. population that he was just a decent beer-drinking man doing his bit for working people up and down the country. Undoubtably a significant proportion of the 52% bought into that (all (...and I mean all...) the people in my team who voted Brexit see Farage as a decent, honest, working man who is a 'bit like them'). Trump has learned from this; be divisive, be anti-establishment and blame an easy enemy for all your ills.


It can't be a coincidence that Farage is on the Trump team (remember that Farage told Barack Obama to stop messing in UK politics during the Brexit run up!).
PG

Tim wrote:
I find it laughable that an arrogant multi-billionaire can credulously claim to be speaking for 'the common man' - if he was then he'd be poor like the rest of us.


Nearly as laughable really as Hilary Clinton, supported by a multi-milion charitable foundation, claiming to stand up for the common man. Or our MP's having two houses funded for them whilst "understanding" the housing shortage. Or MEP's able to bank a lot of savings in one 5 year term if they are careful.

Let's face it, there are no poor politicians. Even if they start out poor and well intentioned, they seem to get rich and system-corrupted. Those that start out rich, like Trump, can just jump straight to being system-corrupted.
Tim

I agree.

What's the solution though?
Big Blue

Join the trough
gonnabuildabuggy

Frank Bullitt wrote:
(all (...and I mean all...) the people in my team who voted Brexit


What's their view now, do they see it as the unmitgated success the Daily Express does?
Twelfth Monkey

PhilD wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:


Adolf Hitler had some success in the 1930's with exactly the same approach


Godwin's Law really is quite incontrovertible.  


Apart from when Niwdog's Law applies.


Is that one you've just coined for when the Hitleresque is aimed at the subject of the thread, rather than a participant?
Frank Bullitt

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:
(all (...and I mean all...) the people in my team who voted Brexit


What's their view now, do they see it as the unmitgated success the Daily Express does?


4 in an office of 14. 2 are still delighted that we are going to get the best deal in the world on all fronts and all those foreigners are quaking in their boots at the vision of Britannia on the waves again, Junkers is literally shitting his load as I type.

The other 2 both voted out on the basis that a) 'out' would not be successful and they wanted to give a bloody eye to the establishment and b) they generally swallowed much of the 'out' hyperbole - they both think it won't be as bad as the Bremoaners claim but they also both acknowledge they would vote 'Remain' if the referendum was held again.

I haven't found anyone who voted 'remain' who wishes they'd voted 'out'

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:


Adolf Hitler had some success in the 1930's with exactly the same approach


Godwin's Law really is quite incontrovertible.  


Apart from when Niwdog's Law applies.


Is that one you've just coined for when the Hitleresque is aimed at the subject of the thread, rather than a participant?


To paraphrase, Niwdig's law is when somebody with a lacklustre argument uses Godwin's law as a way of 'closing' the argument - it's the Internet equivalent of when somebody says 'You always have to have the last word' not realising they use exactly the same line all the time to ensure the always have the last word.
Bob Sacamano

^ is that you ensuring the last word?

Or is it me?

This could go on a while..

"If you suggest that someone is following Niwdog’s Law, that suggestion itself is prima facie evidence that you should be Niwdoged. The Catch-22 of all Catch 22s."
Frank Bullitt

Bob Sacamano wrote:
^ is that you ensuring the last word?

Or is it me?

This could go on a while..

"If you suggest that someone is following Niwdog’s Law, that suggestion itself is prima facie evidence that you should be Niwdoged. The Catch-22 of all Catch 22s."


Indeed 😉
Big Blue

Word
Roadsterstu

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Don't - that ex banker and devout capitalist managed to persuade lots of the U.K. population that he was just a decent beer-drinking man doing his bit for working people up and down the country. Undoubtably a significant proportion of the 52% bought into that (all (...and I mean all...)


I can quite categorically state that, as a "leave" voter, I didn't buy into that. I can see that plenty did but the bitterness and anger is wearing a bit thin now, to be honest.
gooner

He only gone and bloody done it! Following the Brexit vote I'm slightly less surprised, but I'm still somewhat shocked.

Probably a good time for Bernard Matthews to finally give his Turkeys the chance to vote for Christmas.
JohnC

My wife came out the bathroom this morning singing Nellie the Elephant. Which direction for the world now?
Roadsterstu

I don't know but it could be interesting to say the least.
Bob Sacamano

I said previously that Hillary was limping towards the finish line with all her baggage - turns out she's done a Devon Lock! Whoever in the Democrats thought it was a good idea to put the most hated politician in America up for President needs shooting.
JohnC

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Whoever in the Democrats thought it was a good idea to put the most hated politician in America up for President needs shooting.


That sounds very Donald like!
Bob Sacamano

JohnC wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Whoever in the Democrats thought it was a good idea to put the most hated politician in America up for President needs shooting.


That sounds very Donald like!


Let's make The Motor Forum great again!
JohnC

Much as it frightens me, this might just be the tonic the world needs to break out of the mire we all seem to be stuck in. I expect the USA to become even more patriotic which is fine provided that is channelled in the right direction and not into aggression.

The "establishment" whoever they are could probably do with a big kick up the arse because the inequality gap is widening and I see Trump as someone who might help reward business, investment and hard work. As long as he can do that without stirring up racial and national tensions we might be OK.

I am sure that there are influential people in the background who will do their best to keep him grounded but I do fear that there are megalomaniac tendencies which will have to be kept in check.

Meanwhile I will watch the value of my pension and ISA's fall until some semblance of normality is resumed!
Bob Sacamano

I do think there's a common thread running through the rise of the SNP - Brexit - a Trump Presidency, in that people are looking at a political elite that appears distant and corrupt and want to somehow take back control in the only way they know how through the ballot box. In a way we've been in this phoney war since the financial crisis, waiting for the next shock with a feeling that nothing has changed, it could all happen again and no-one has really learned or are unwilling to take on any lessons. We live in interesting times.
Frank Bullitt

Frank Bullitt wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I suspect America will vote Trump: I'm probably 70-30 on he likelihood.


Ta da!

Agree with John, there are swathes of people whom are disenfranchised from the rush to centrist politics, this and Brexit are a kick up the arse (even if it's no more than you reap what you sow)
gonnabuildabuggy

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Frank Bullitt wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I suspect America will vote Trump: I'm probably 70-30 on he likelihood.


Ta da!

Agree with John, there are swathes of people whom are disenfranchised from the rush to centrist politics, this and Brexit are a kick up the arse (even if it's no more than you reap what you sow)


I'm still stunned but the vote itself seems incredibly close compared to the "college" wins.

It will be a kick up the ass and hopefully his speech shows a large degree of moderation compared to his campaign.

We are in for an interesting 4 yrs, if nothing else Trumps protectionism vs Republican free trade bias.

It's as if Farage had won the election.

Fingers crossed we get the good and not the bad that can happen.

Right now Marine Le Pen must be dancing around the room, she looked the most likely to win an election before all this kicked off.

Will be interesting to see if Brexit negotiations take a turn.
Frank Bullitt

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:


It will be a kick up the ass and hopefully his speech shows a large degree of moderation compared to his campaign.


I am confused, mind, as he didn't mention putting Hilary in jail, which he had said quite a few times in his campaign. Wonder if anything else will change.
Big Blue

I'm in no way surprised. I am mildly curious about a republican president that's not liked by the republican political elite with both houses also republican. An interesting 4 years ahead.

Odds on a second term?
Nice Guy Eddie

So if we take the positives,
Hopefully a better relationship between Russia and the West and hopefully some strategy around Syria and ISIS.
The strengthening of the pound if everyone bails out of the dollar
A president that actually likes and admires the UK
A shake up of the political class.
I'm struggling, oh, you get to look at Melania Trump for the next 4 years rather than Bill Clinton as a first lady/man
Roadsterstu

I just cannot get over the name Trump without a childish snigger.
Twelfth Monkey

The world's gone mad.  America had a head start, I suppose...
Big Blue

Anyone else amused that today's date is 9/11?

Also, think what you want but this is the most sensible thing I've seen written thus far:



People vote for what they want, not what is best for the nation, the world or their neighbour. In the same way that Brexit voters felt disenfranchised by Westminster and Brussels the Trumpers felt so by DC and the political system.

He'll probably be a great President just to fuck everyone off.
gonnabuildabuggy

This email I just received summed up the truth as far as I see it:

The US elections have highlighted that we live in a crazy world right now. The result is in but the division in the world is still very real.

I believe that Trump, Brexit and many of the other strange occurrences are symptoms of a deeper problem.

Many people feel that their social contract has been breached. They were told that if they went to school, got a good job, worked hard and paid their taxes they would keep making progress in life and ultimately retire with dignity and a few of life’s luxuries as well.

This has turned out to be a lie. Good people who work hard and do right by others don't seem to be getting ahead anymore. They struggle to pay off a home, to put kids through good schools or to save money for later in life.

The media loves to focus on three scapegoats for all of life's troubles – Migrants, Muslims and Millionaires – rather than addressing the real issues. I don't buy into this and think the real problems stem from demographics and technology.

Here are some of the real issues we're facing right now:

1. The UK and the USA have ageing populations. The baby boom was from 1946-1964, so in 2016 a great wave of people started turning 70. Every day for the next 10 years will be a new world record for the most people turning 70. When populations age, productivity slows, incomes goes flat and governments don't collect much in taxes.

2. Millennials aren't settling down. People aged 20-35 are in a bind thanks to debt, low wages and expensive houses. They don't get married, they don't buy homes and they don't have kids until much later in life. They're also not interested in buying the big houses that the baby boomers want to sell at 15-20x the average wage.

3. Technology is replacing jobs. The USA is manufacturing twice as much as it did in the 80's with less than a third of the people in manufacturing – automation is taking jobs, not China. The teen at the Tesco check-out is gone, so is the manager who checks the inventory, so is the store accountant who reports the daily takings. To put it in comparison, Vodafone has over 100,000 employees and WhatsApp has less than 250. New technology doesn't create jobs, it obliterates them.

4. Governments have no clue how to tax global companies or the rich. In 2020 66% of the world will be online and the labour market will be truly globalised. In a globalised world, a geographically defined government can't keep up with the movement of cash bouncing around the world at the speed of light. This leaves it with very few options but to expand its borrowing to pay for the things we demand. In particular the baby boomers want healthcare at a time when governments are losing tax payers.

These four big issues are either your friend or your enemy. You either see the benefits of technology and demographics or you see them as a threat.
gonnabuildabuggy

Big Blue wrote:
I'm in no way surprised. I am mildly curious about a republican president that's not liked by the republican political elite with both houses also republican. An interesting 4 years ahead.

Odds on a second term?


Low. But if he gets it then he will have to have delivered a lot of positives.

My money is on him not seeing through 4 yrs, if he doesn't deliver on some promises then someone with a grudge and a gun might take action into their own hands
Big Blue

People said that about a black president.....
Bob Sacamano

Interestingly Noam Chomsky predicted the rise of Trump 6 years ago:


http://www.salon.com/2016/05/19/n...nald_trump_six_years_ago_partner/





Quote:

So we are faced with a political system largely devoted to the needs of organized wealth, which leaves working people anxious, worried about the future, and, as we have seen, very angry. In essence, political elites — on both sides — have created a vacuum into which a charismatic and loudmouthed demagogue can emerge.

As Chomsky noted in his interview with Hedges, “The United States is extremely lucky that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen. Every charismatic figure is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself, like McCarthy or Nixon or the evangelist preachers. If somebody comes along who is charismatic and honest this country is in real trouble because of the frustration, disillusionment, the justified anger and the absence of any coherent response.”

“What are people supposed to think if someone says ‘I have got an answer, we have an enemy’?” Chomsky asked. In Germany, he added, “it was the Jews. Here it will be the illegal immigrants and the blacks. We will be told that white males are a persecuted minority.”

Sound familiar?

“We will be told we have to defend ourselves and the honor of the nation,” Chomsky continued. “Military force will be exalted. People will be beaten up. This could become an overwhelming force.”
JohnC

Re GBB's point 4, one consideration at the moment is an increase in sales taxes since it is the only way to target online shopping. With the global reductions in Corporate Tax this does appear to be a semi-workable, if not palatable, option. Such action would also require reductions in income tax but might be the start of the cashless economy.
JohnC

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Interestingly Noam Chomsky predicted the rise of Trump 6 years ago:


http://www.salon.com/2016/05/19/n...nald_trump_six_years_ago_partner/





Quote:

So we are faced with a political system largely devoted to the needs of organized wealth, which leaves working people anxious, worried about the future, and, as we have seen, very angry. In essence, political elites — on both sides — have created a vacuum into which a charismatic and loudmouthed demagogue can emerge.

As Chomsky noted in his interview with Hedges, “The United States is extremely lucky that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen. Every charismatic figure is such an obvious crook that he destroys himself, like McCarthy or Nixon or the evangelist preachers. If somebody comes along who is charismatic and honest this country is in real trouble because of the frustration, disillusionment, the justified anger and the absence of any coherent response.”

“What are people supposed to think if someone says ‘I have got an answer, we have an enemy’?” Chomsky asked. In Germany, he added, “it was the Jews. Here it will be the illegal immigrants and the blacks. We will be told that white males are a persecuted minority.”

Sound familiar?

“We will be told we have to defend ourselves and the honor of the nation,” Chomsky continued. “Military force will be exalted. People will be beaten up. This could become an overwhelming force.”


I sincerely hope that doesn't come true for everyone's sake. I am hoping that Donald is smarter than he appears and has just played the electoral game very cleverly whilst never intending to deliver on half his promises.

However he has obviously tapped in to a significant seam of unhappiness and discontent in many Americans so change might well be coming.
Chip Butty

On the subject of technology taking jobs - there were two very interesting articles published in a Swiss air in flight magazine.

One argued that over the next 20 years, technological advancement in combination with universal basic income would free humans from the drudgery of work and allow the pursuit of full time recreation and creativity (i.e - it's all going to be brilliant)

The other argued that over the next 20 years, technological advancement will take almost all jobs, make a few people fantastically rich and turn the rest of us into starving peasants (i.e - it's all going to be horrifically shit).
Twelfth Monkey

Trump's extremes won't reach fruition.  There are too many checks and balances, as observed by many commentators including one of Mrs 12th's old lecturers on the beeb yesterday, and good ol' Rich Hall.  Presidential will on its own doesn't go too far, witness Obama on gun control.
PG

A lot of very interesting comments and commentary on the result, here and in the press.

A lot like GBB's comment above, it is almost as if we have been in a period of phoney war since the 2008 fiscal crisis. The global elite - political and economic - crashed the system, and yet managed to come out of it pretty much unscathed.

Brexit and now Trump are the results of people finally getting a choice that they felt they could support. It might be the right or wrong choice, but it was still a choice. And the election of Corbyn and the campaign of Bernie Sanders to get the Democratic nomination are more of the same. The French and German elections in 2017 are the next litmus test.

We don't know yet if Trump will be as he was as a candidate, or as he was in his speech this morning.
Bob Sacamano

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Trump's extremes won't reach fruition.  There are too many checks and balances, as observed by many commentators including one of Mrs 12th's old lecturers on the beeb yesterday, and good ol' Rich Hall.  Presidential will on its own doesn't go too far, witness Obama on gun control.


The problem is the Republicans hold both the Senate and Congress and they are all now in awe/debt to Trump for turning the fortunes of a party that looked doomed to a long period of obscurity. He will hold the whip hand over them.
Twelfth Monkey

Flip side is that now they are in power proper, why jeopardise it by being silly (as many republicans know Trump's manifesto really is).  I think he's a twat, but suspect his impact will turn out to be rather less than many of us initially feared.
Roadsterstu

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
This email I just received summed up the truth as far as I see it:

The US elections have highlighted that we live in a crazy world right now. The result is in but the division in the world is still very real.

I believe that Trump, Brexit and many of the other strange occurrences are symptoms of a deeper problem.

Many people feel that their social contract has been breached. They were told that if they went to school, got a good job, worked hard and paid their taxes they would keep making progress in life and ultimately retire with dignity and a few of life’s luxuries as well.

This has turned out to be a lie. Good people who work hard and do right by others don't seem to be getting ahead anymore. They struggle to pay off a home, to put kids through good schools or to save money for later in life.

The media loves to focus on three scapegoats for all of life's troubles – Migrants, Muslims and Millionaires – rather than addressing the real issues. I don't buy into this and think the real problems stem from demographics and technology.

Here are some of the real issues we're facing right now:

1. The UK and the USA have ageing populations. The baby boom was from 1946-1964, so in 2016 a great wave of people started turning 70. Every day for the next 10 years will be a new world record for the most people turning 70. When populations age, productivity slows, incomes goes flat and governments don't collect much in taxes.

2. Millennials aren't settling down. People aged 20-35 are in a bind thanks to debt, low wages and expensive houses. They don't get married, they don't buy homes and they don't have kids until much later in life. They're also not interested in buying the big houses that the baby boomers want to sell at 15-20x the average wage.

3. Technology is replacing jobs. The USA is manufacturing twice as much as it did in the 80's with less than a third of the people in manufacturing – automation is taking jobs, not China. The teen at the Tesco check-out is gone, so is the manager who checks the inventory, so is the store accountant who reports the daily takings. To put it in comparison, Vodafone has over 100,000 employees and WhatsApp has less than 250. New technology doesn't create jobs, it obliterates them.

4. Governments have no clue how to tax global companies or the rich. In 2020 66% of the world will be online and the labour market will be truly globalised. In a globalised world, a geographically defined government can't keep up with the movement of cash bouncing around the world at the speed of light. This leaves it with very few options but to expand its borrowing to pay for the things we demand. In particular the baby boomers want healthcare at a time when governments are losing tax payers.

These four big issues are either your friend or your enemy. You either see the benefits of technology and demographics or you see them as a threat.


Interesting summary and one that seems to me to make sense. Where did it come from/who wrote it?
Bob Sacamano

Trying to take a positive note from all this...

When Reagan was elected we were all horrified and thought that the Fascists were getting back in power in the US. Then we all decided he was stupid and you had Spitting Image taking the piss and running sketches called "The President's Brain is Missing". We were convinced his strong position against Russia, cruise missiles in Europe and Star Wars defence policies would end in nuclear war and what happened? The Cold War was won and he turned out to be one of the most effective Presidents in recent years. You can never tell.*




* OK, you can, Trump's a twat and it'll be a disaster. I was just trying to convince myself.
Racing Teatray

I blame television and the media. They hold the smoking gun.

Clearly this is a horrifying development for all those who believe in a fair, tolerant and inclusive society. Not necessarily because of Trump himself, but because of that part of global society which will now feel emboldened to push its ugly evil creed.

Currently in Nairobi, where we are hosting a client drinks event this evening. It will be interesting to get a non-Western reaction.
PhilD

Bob Sacamano wrote:
Interestingly Noam Chomsky predicted the rise of Trump 6 years ago:

http://www.salon.com/2016/05/19/n...nald_trump_six_years_ago_partner/



Two problems here; 1 - Trump isn't honest, and 2 - Isn't this the point where you bring up Godwin's Law Bob?  

The similarities with Brexit are startling. Leftie party of the "working man" gets drunk on power and money leaving a bunch of people who feel no one speaks for them. That some are a little bit old, stupid and racist massively helps whoever comes in to fills the vacuum' "Lets go back to the good old days!" "It's not your fault your life is shit, it's those pesky rich/elitist/foreigners/lazyyoungpeoplewithnomanners!"  

Chomsky didn't just predict Trump he predicted the fate of the Western World.

All I can say is thank god for Test Match Special this morning for transporting me to a happier place*

*irony of solace found in an elitist sport played against old colonial nation not lost.
Bob Sacamano

PhilD wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
Interestingly Noam Chomsky predicted the rise of Trump 6 years ago:

http://www.salon.com/2016/05/19/n...nald_trump_six_years_ago_partner/



Two problems here; 1 - Trump isn't honest, and 2 - Isn't this the point where you bring up Godwin's Law Bob?  

The similarities with Brexit are startling. Leftie party of the "working man" gets drunk on power and money leaving a bunch of people who feel no one speaks for them. That some are a little bit old, stupid and racist massively helps whoever comes in to fills the vacuum' "Lets go back to the good old days!" "It's not your fault your life is shit, it's those pesky rich/elitist/foreigners/lazyyoungpeoplewithnomanners!"  

Chomsky didn't just predict Trump he predicted the fate of the Western World.

All I can say is thank god for Test Match Special this morning for transporting me to a happier place*

*irony of solace found in an elitist sport played against old colonial nation not lost.


Yeah, you need to read the whole article:

Quote:
Trump is, of course, not “honest” in any meaningful definition of the word, but his supporters believe that he “tells it like it is.” They view him as a no-nonsense straight-talker, a man not confined by the limits of political correctness.
PhilD

Bob Sacamano wrote:


Yeah, you need to read the whole article:

Quote:
Trump is, of course, not “honest” in any meaningful definition of the word, but his supporters believe that he “tells it like it is.” They view him as a no-nonsense straight-talker, a man not confined by the limits of political correctness.


I did. That wasn't the point being made about honesty; it wasn't about sincerity it was about self destruction. They changed it to make the story better!
gonnabuildabuggy

Roadsterstu wrote:
Interesting summary and one that seems to me to make sense. Where did it come from/who wrote it?


One of the regular business emails I receive from company/person trying to sell their services for business assistance.

It's nothing new, I've seen it before in many locations (including the Economist) and it's been my view for a while, indeed I posted similar re Brexit (on that occasion from one of the investment companies).

From my view the simplistic take is that the world is changing and fast, but there are now too many people for whom the level of change is too great (i.e. the are not able to adapt or change themselves) and this is now being seen at the polling booth.

On the upside, Trumps tone in his speech was a long way from his stump speeches so in theory it's looking up, as long as no-one annoys him.

When do they finish building the replica white house to put him in?
Big Blue

Racing Teatray wrote:

Currently in Nairobi, where we are hosting a client drinks event this evening. It will be interesting to get a non-Western reaction.


Hmmm. Some African leaders make Trump look like the messiah. Then conversely the amount spent on the presidental race by the candidates make African elections look fair and honest.
PG

Racing Teatray wrote:
Currently in Nairobi, where we are hosting a client drinks event this evening. It will be interesting to get a non-Western reaction.


Take the positive aspect - you won't have to talk about Brexit all night.  
PhilD

Big Blue wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:

Currently in Nairobi, where we are hosting a client drinks event this evening. It will be interesting to get a non-Western reaction.


Hmmm. Some African leaders make Trump look like the messiah. Then conversely the amount spent on the presidental race by the candidates make African elections look fair and honest.


One could argue that all leaders are the same under their masks. The fascinating thing about Trump is the lack of spin or pretence, like watching a politician speak with anti-bullshit subtitles.
BeN

Well, sigh.

What can we do but accept our fate. Let's see how all this pans out.
Michael

The shock of a Trump win is cancelled out by the relief it wasn't Hillary.
PG

Michael wrote:
The shock of a Trump win is cancelled out by the relief it wasn't Hillary.


simonp

Michael wrote:
The shock of a Trump win is cancelled out by the relief it wasn't Hillary.


This. The FBI will be happy, too, as they can carry on looking into the Clinton Foundation's alleged corruptness. Probably not as easy when the President is on the board...
Big Blue

Michael wrote:
The shock of a Trump win is cancelled out by the relief it wasn't Hillary.


That, in a nutshell, is why Trump will be the 45th president. She offered the same slithery-skinned, financed-by-others, career-politician that people associated with US strife in the face of an open world market. Whatever anyone thinks of Trump let me remind us all that George W Bush was the 43rd president. He couldn't actually put the words in a sentence in the correct order.
simonp

And there was Reagan some time before that...
gonnabuildabuggy

A Trump presidency on it's own isn't perhaps the problem. He had promised much and on a personal level it's likely he will deliver little as he's achieved what he wanted. To become the President.

However, the problem will be those who surround him and their views, and what might happen if those who voted for him don't see their lives improve.

Democracy has worked, let's hope it keeps working.
Chris M Wanted a V-10

I heard a good quote this morning on the radio, Trump's vistory being likened to a full-scale attack on American politics.

If he can only tone down some of his pre-election "threats", we could be in for a radical set of changes that make things fairer and better for the honest hard-working citizens (and not just Americans).  On the other hand......
DetmoldDick

simonp wrote:
And there was Reagan some time before that...


I think Raegan was probably the best POTUS in my lifetime.
PG

Rather than sniping at Trump for getting elected or his views, maybe European leaders would be better suited to considering this statistic - yes, I'm looking at you Angela Merkel -

"What we do know is that Europe is woefully ill-equipped to serve its own strategic needs. The only two countries in the EU that fulfill all their Nato defence spending obligations are the UK and Poland.  The US footed the bill for more 70 per cent of Nato's defence spending last year. "

I think France does as well at 2.1% of GDP. In 1988 Germany spent 2.5% of GDP on defence. Today that figures is 1.2%. NATO target is 2%. The US spends 3.9% (as its stance is that it has to have the capability to fight a two front war at the same time.)
DetmoldDick

And it was the EU that started it with their talk of a European Army.
Big Blue

DetmoldDick wrote:
simonp wrote:
And there was Reagan some time before that...


I think Raegan was probably the best POTUS in my lifetime.


+1. His only major error was not taxing gasoline. A 1c tax in '81 would have annihilated large amounts of future deficit. He bowed to republican pressure on that as I understand he did want to add a tax. He was also fortunate, as was Clinton, that social change moved apace during his 8 years. My folks lived in the US between 1981 and 89, effectively the Reagan years, and the change in lifestyles, quality of life was visible to me as I saw it each Summer and Christmas.

Clinton was lucky, as was Bliar, that the entire world shifted during his tenure making him look like he'd achieved stuff when in reality it would have happened anyway.
Bob Sacamano

DetmoldDick wrote:
simonp wrote:
And there was Reagan some time before that...


I think Raegan was probably the best POTUS in my lifetime.


+1. Although you'd never know it due to the left wing media bias.

I understand Lord Sugar is considering making a stand for leadership of the Tory party.
PhilD

Bob Sacamano wrote:


I understand Lord Sugar is considering making a stand for leadership of the Tory party.


Trump has killed satire. Part of me believes you!

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