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JohnC

Cheap BMW 330e Hybrid Saloon

For those seeking low Benefit in Kind:

http://www.clvr.org.uk/business-lease-cars/bmw/3-series-saloon

Again I reckon that the leasing costs will be less than the depreciation by quite a bit.
Bob Sacamano

I saw that. Looks very tempting.
Racing Teatray

It's a four pot these days isn't it?
Martin

Yes, 2.0 turbo with about 180hp or 250hp with the electric motor.  

That is a very good price, but the SE needs leather and sports seats adding as a minimum.
Bryan M

I really wish they would make a touring...

Currently looking at outlander phev and trying to find out about Passat gte estate.

Aside from a forum ban what is life coming too, considering an electric Mitsubishi!
Michael

A touring would be interesting. I find this hybrid stuff fascinating myself. I know Toyota has done it for years but it's getting a bit more interesting now.
Giant

Bryan M wrote:
I really wish they would make a touring...

Currently looking at outlander phev and trying to find out about Passat gte estate.

Aside from a forum ban what is life coming too, considering an electric Mitsubishi!


Since we're heading into what car territory, The Outlander PHEV was the vehicle with the most inaccurate fuel consumption figures compared to real world according to what car, I can't find the table, the claimed figure was something like 140% above the real world figure.
Roadrunner

Giant wrote:
Bryan M wrote:
I really wish they would make a touring...

Currently looking at outlander phev and trying to find out about Passat gte estate.

Aside from a forum ban what is life coming too, considering an electric Mitsubishi!


Since we're heading into what car territory, The Outlander PHEV was the vehicle with the most inaccurate fuel consumption figures compared to real world according to what car, I can't find the table, the claimed figure was something like 140% above the real world figure.


Mitsubishi"s are breathtakingly crap and best avoided from my experience. How about a C-Class hybrid?
cbeaks1

I have a Hybrid Mondeo coming in March. Sub 100g/km. Chisen largely for tax reasons but also as it is an auto with Titanium spec and with the X pack has Led headlights, heated leather etc.

I borrowed one for a couple of weeks over Christmas. 50mpg easy even if mostly around town, power train stuff is seem less and entertaining to try to stay electric.

The only drawback is it is a saloon.

The PassatGte just won What Car electric car of the year so there should be plenty of info on there.
Giant

I saw an Audi A3 e-tron today, I didn't realise these were on sale now, I imagine it's the same as the Golf GTE?
JohnC

Bryan M wrote:
I really wish they would make a touring...

Currently looking at outlander phev and trying to find out about Passat gte estate.

Aside from a forum ban what is life coming too, considering an electric Mitsubishi!


A girl who works for me has one (or at least her husband does). I have only been in it once but it seemed fairly well put together and in the 15 mile trip we did, it stayed in electric mode the whole way.

However it is a big bus and I don't think the engine will get much more than 30mpg when it kicks in, even if driven sensibly. However if most of your journeys are less than 20 miles it makes a lot of sense. However I would rather have the BMW, Audi, Merc or Ford. I suppose the problem is no-one does an estate!
cbeaks1

The Passat is an estate. I didn't realise it was £40k though! I suppose the bik is cheap but does your car scheme thing allow for £40k cars?
Roadrunner

JohnC wrote:
Bryan M wrote:
I really wish they would make a touring...

Currently looking at outlander phev and trying to find out about Passat gte estate.

Aside from a forum ban what is life coming too, considering an electric Mitsubishi!


A girl who works for me has one (or at least her husband does). I have only been in it once but it seemed fairly well put together and in the 15 mile trip we did, it stayed in electric mode the whole way.

However it is a big bus and I don't think the engine will get much more than 30mpg when it kicks in, even if driven sensibly. However if most of your journeys are less than 20 miles it makes a lot of sense. However I would rather have the BMW, Audi, Merc or Ford. I suppose the problem is no-one does an estate!


Mercedes do a C Class hybrid estate


Bryan M

The Benz is an attractive option financially
Andy C

^ not to mention an attractive design (especially the estate)
JohnC

Roadrunner wrote:
Mercedes do a C Class hybrid estate




Just shows how quickly these things change. Last time I looked the options were all estateless!
Bryan M

John was the outlander fast enough, I worry 70-80mph outside lane acceleration will be pants, merc should be ok.
JohnC

Bryan M wrote:
John was the outlander fast enough, I worry 70-80mph outside lane acceleration will be pants, merc should be ok.


I would say it was perfectly acceptable up to 50/60mph but after that I can't really tell you since 60 was about as fast as we went. However you get a gut feel about how it might go and I think you would have to be prepared to floor it to get it to move at 70/80. I'll ask when Lorna gets in.
JohnC

OK, I asked her and I am wrong.

Apparently it goes pretty well at motorway speeds and if you have electric charge left it goes very well for a short burst. (he came from a Saab 2.3T so was used to decent performance) The amount of recharge is set by a lever at the side of the steering wheel which determines how severe you want the lift off slow down/max recharge balance. It recharges pretty rapidly if it is on max and you have to slow down from highish speeds or if you lift off going downhill.

The default is to use electric power wherever possible so it will always use what charge it has in preference to petrol.

Once over about 60mph the engine will cut in because the electric power just isn't sufficient to keep the car going at that speed for any time at all. Also on cold mornings the engine will start if you have the blowers going, rear window, heated seats etc.

He has a 20 mile daily commute and in summer he uses virtually no fuel at all. Winter uses a bit but not much. The car is doing about 10,000 miles a year and they fill up less than once a month!
Roadrunner

I cannot understand why anyone would choose a Mitushiti over a Mercedes.
Bryan M

Especially when the Mercedes is cheaper, faster and nicer that the Mitsubishi!

The C class boot is smaller and rear seat access is quite low down and restricted plus it is RWD which means it will go nowhere in bad weather. The PHEV is bigger boot/more practical and 4x4 - will have to try and drive both to see I guess

It is a shame I have to make the choice for the next 4 years in March as there are many more interesting options arriving monthly
Roadrunner

Indeed. If a hybrid F Pace were available it would be job jobbed.
JohnC

I think Mitsubishi hit a sweet spot though with the pricing, the practicality, 4WD and low CO2 emissions. As a company car, when it came out, it only cost 5% as a benefit in kind.

As a basic rate tax payer it would only have cost  the equivalent of two large tanks of fuel to have full use of a car and all expenses paid for a year - it was a bit of a no brainer.

Benefits in kind are now higher at 9% and the choice is now wider, so the trick is to get in before the Have Money Raping Committee decide to increase the percentages too severely.
Bryan M

Have I missed a year in my calculations? I thought it was 16/17 7%, 9% 17/18, 11% 18/19, 16% in 19/20

The Merc with the premium pack adds c 3/4% tax per year as it falls into the next bracket 53g/CO2...I can live without Comand, memory seats etc for that loading.
By comparison my Evoque at 149g/CO2 would be taxed at 33-36% tax in 19/20  
JohnC

It depends on the CO2 emissions.

For 2015/16 it is 5% for up to 50g/km CO2
For 2015/16 it is 9% between 51 and 75g/km

For 2016/17 and 2017/18 these percentages increase by 2% each year.

In 2018/19 the up to 50g/km increases to 13% and then 16% in 2019/20

The 51-75 band increases to 16% in 2018/19 and then 19% in 2019/20
Racing Teatray

I've been in a PHEV Outlander belonging to one of my wife's relatives. It was horrid. Woeful design inside and out. No-one cried when it got totalled in a smash recently. Oddly enough she now has a C-class wagon instead...
JohnC

The best company car I have been in recently was actually a van. A Discovery TDV6 Commercial.

As long as you only need 2 seats it is a very nice place to sit and gets along at a fair lick when empty. It also has a benefit in kind of £3,090.
PG

If you have the Merc on 17 inch wheels it gets under the 50 gm CO2 limit (according to Merc's website).

I didn't realise the Merc was a plug in (although I'm not sure what the the battery only range is?).
Bryan M

The battery only range is about 25miles, PG you are correct a Sport C350e falls under the 50gCO2 limit but the weight of the premium pack dictates 18 wheels and the next band up

Could be a Sport version is on the cards
cbeaks1

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-revi...16-bmw-225xe-active-tourer-review

The more of these I see in M Sport form the more I like it. Would this be a decent company car choice? 3 cylinders,AWD, 25 electric miles, sub 50g/km co2.
gooner

cbeaks1 wrote:
The Passat is an estate. I didn't realise it was £40k though! I suppose the bik is cheap but does your car scheme thing allow for £40k cars?


The trouble is the BIK may be based on a lower percentage of value, but when that value is 15k more than the regular diesel versions, there's not so much of a difference.
JohnC

In terms of having something you like and minimising the tax you pay on it, then yes. The only downside is the basic list price of c£33K. With a few extras it could easily be £35K.

The benefit in kind for under 50g/km of CO2 is

2015/16 - 5%    You would pay tax on £1,750 = £350/£700 at 20%/40%
2016/17 - 7%    You would pay tax on £2,450 = £490/£980
2017/18 - 9%    You would pay tax on £3,150 = £630/£1,260
2018/19 - 13%  You would pay tax on £4,550 = £910/£1,820

I think in anyone's book that really isn't very much to pay to have free use of such a car. That doesn't include the benefit if you get private fuel provided but for 2015/16 the benefit is £22,100 which at 5% would mean you would pay tax on £1,105 (£221/£442) to have all your petrol paid for a year. Just a pity we are nearly at the end of 2015/16.

With lower fuel prices and an increasing BIK % you would need to give the fuel benefit a bit of thought based on the number of private miles you do.

Maybe Martin should get one of these as a company car and buy a 911 for the weekends/wife!

EDIT: For completeness following Gooner's post above the diesel has Co2 emissions of 114 I think. That would give benefit in kind percentages of:

2015/16 - 20%    incl 3% diesel surcharge
2016/17 - 22%    
2017/18 - 24%    
2018/19 - 26%
Tim

I drove an Outlander PHEV about 18 months ago and was pleasantly surprised by the performance.
It ran on electric until the battery was down to about 5%.
I think they stay on electric up to 70mph unless you floor it.
On a full throttle pull away from a junction it was electric only until approx. the point where you'd be going into 2nd gear then the engine cut in briefly but it was almost seamless.
I can't remember much about the interior but I think it was reasonably ok, although clearly that would depend what you were coming to it from.
Martin

Sub 50co2 does make it really cheap, but how cheap.  I don't want to go back to a company car unless I could have something like a Panamera Hybrid with as many options as I want. Which isn't going to happen.
gonnabuildabuggy

Martin wrote:
Sub 50co2 does make it really cheap, but how cheap.  I don't want to go back to a company car unless I could have something like a Panamera Hybrid with as many options as I want. Which isn't going to happen.


I'm disappointed. I'd assumed you would have negotiated this as a key factor in taking the new role.  
Martin

You can only push so far.  My new boss has an X3 20d M Sport, which gives you an idea of how strong my bargaining position would be!  It might be his own actually, but whatever, he has good taste as its Space Grey  

Seriously...the chances of getting anything extra in terms of benefits in a company that size ($15bn +) are tiny.
PG

Martin wrote:
...  My new boss ....


Did I miss that you have actually taken the new job? I thought it was still under final discussions?
JohnC

PG wrote:
Martin wrote:
...  My new boss ....


Did I miss that you have actually taken the new job? I thought it was still under final discussions?


Yes, I missed that too.
Bryan M

Do tell.....

And yes the 225XE is under active consideration - I could go mad with the options and still have it under my monthly allowance - the P11D would be £40k though!!

The best solution and cheapest all round is the 3 series saloon - being bought up on a diet of hatchbacks - what is it like living with a saloon especially when we are thinking of having a family?

The Merc estate has gone up by £200pcm so would require a contribution to get now - not the end of the world

Or it is the outlander phev - in budget and ticks all the boxes or passat GTE estate - lower petrol rate but lots of desirable and lots of kit on advance version but £43k!!

Either way this is going to be a head purchase not a heart one and needs to tick a lot of boxes ie save me cash for the extension, last for all life throws at us over a 4 year lease etc

Or I could keep the same level of expenditure I have at the moment and get an A7 SE Exec, A4 3.0 tdi estate, another Evoque, but the savings are significant for PHEV

Evoque - £37k and 125co2 = Tax £333 a month 17/18 rising to £394/month 19/20 (current tax is £216/month but requires a much bigger contribution to get than new scheme)

A7 would be £47k and 118co2 = £313 a month 17/18 rising to £390 a month in 19/20

Ford Mustang V8 - £34k and 299CO2 = £320 a month tax flat as it is at 37%

Electric

BMW 330e M sport - £36k, 49 co2 = £108 a month rising to £192 in 19/20 (plus I get upto £100pcm back as under allowance)

the 225xe is similar


Outlander - c£38k 42co2 - £114 tax rising to £202 - it is around my monthly allowance

Merc C class c£41k 49CO2 - £83 tax rising to £178 - requires a £100/month contribution to top up my allowance but this helps tax

The electric options could give me back c£2-300pcm!!!

Now can I live with a saloon with hopefully a new family?
Martin

You can live with a saloon, yes.  I had a Bora when my first was born until he was just over 12 months, when I got a Passat saloon (moved jobs).   Getting a Passat estate did make life easier with 2, but I didn't like going above the load cover....

Some people carry an awful lot of crap around, it really isn't necessary imo.

A 330e with split/fold seats would be my choice based on your criteria, using the £100 to add some nice options.  The 2 series Tourer is an interesting option if you can live with the looks, it's a mini i8 spec wise with a 3 pot turbo and electric motor each driving an axle.
Bryan M

It's the looks of the 225xe which are holding me back - trying with colours and wheels to make it acceptable - luxury version seems to be the one to go for

the 1.5 engine is a bonus ( I get 12ppm fuel for above 1400cc engine instead of 9ppm for a 1.4 petrol like the Golf/Passat GTE)
JohnC

My wife had a 328i saloon when our daughter was born and we found the boot too small when going out with the pram - pram choice needs to be made by taking the car for "a fitting" when you get a saloon. However they do everything else well and give security for tucking things out of site. They also tend to be quieter because the noise from the rear is insulated.

With folding seats, saloons are very versatile although it would be hard to argue that an estate or MPV wouldn't be easier with a family.
cbeaks1

If you are trying to get pregnant get a Mustang.

Getting an impractical V8 will almost guarantee immediate success (and make you ultra virile), and if you do have a baby the chances are you wont have another chance for 20 years.

I appreciate you have a Porcshe and a Lotus as well, but who doesn't need a Mustang V8 to add to that. Also, £300 odd a month is half what it would cost to buy one, so super value.
Bryan M

Can't argue with any of that! 😊
gonnabuildabuggy

JohnC wrote:
My wife had a 328i saloon when our daughter was born and we found the boot too small when going out with the pram - pram choice needs to be made by taking the car for "a fitting" when you get a saloon. However they do everything else well and give security for tucking things out of site. They also tend to be quieter because the noise from the rear is insulated.

With folding seats, saloons are very versatile although it would be hard to argue that an estate or MPV wouldn't be easier with a family.


I had an E36 saloon when our first was born, same problem with the boot being too shallow to fit a pram in easily.  

I solved that by swapping into an E36 Estate. But after that I had bigger saloons (Passat and Volvo S60) which were much more practical.

EDIT - I'd ordered the E36 saloon before my wife was pregnant, a friend commented at the time that we obviously weren't considering starting a family

However....as a main family car the FRV won hands down, simply for ease of access of lifting kids into the rear and having space for camping trips etc.

My personal view is that it makes most sense for the partner doing most of the childcare to have the practical car, little point them struggling with an MX5 whilst the other person drives to work in an XC90.

So get a Mustang and a Picasso :)
Frank Bullitt

gonnabuildabuggy wrote:
My personal view is that it makes most sense for the partner doing most of the childcare to have the practical car, little point them struggling with an MX5 whilst the other person drives to work in an XC90.


I'd agree with this. Looking at the 330e or even the Golf GTE (which having had a look around has a superb interior) and factoring the cost of replacing the Captur with something else and deciding what works for the overall cost makes sense.

You do have to be careful with the boot shape/ size on saloons; when we replaced the smart I looked at the S40 and S60; the former wouldn't physically take our not overly large pram set-up (it wouldn't get through the opening) and whilst the latter would take it nothing else would fit in. If going for a 330e the split seat option would be essential to make it usable.

Given the numbers quoted above a 330e with a C4 Picasso/ kadjar/ C-Max (or whatever floats your boat) makes sense.
Bryan M

I agree to an extent but can't see the point in leaving the company car at home on a big trip and putting miles on a car we own & pay to service/depreciate etc

Saw the BMWs yesterday - impressed with the service and some features but both the 3 series and 2 series AT felt cramped inside and the boot on the AT was no bigger than a Golf. The best interior we sat in went to the Passat - it felt a much more cohesive design
cbeaks1

Do they do a Gran Tourer? (what a crappy name - saw one sign written with that in big letters. Not exactly aspirational)
Bryan M

They do but not with the electric gubbins

We also sat in the new 2016 Outlander with the leather interior which was much nicer than the other one we sat in - if it drives OK it could be a contender - I suspect it will have the Japanese bong problem the CRV had

Very odd making a heart purchase with the head!
JohnC

When the head has to over-rule the heart for tax reasons, you just know that the tax rates are too high.

Remember that you need to drive whatever you get and hopefully get some enjoyment from it. Passat Estate gets my vote as the best chance of a compromise although if you can get a smallish pram then 3 series takes it.
Bryan M

I really need a crystal ball - we may not even be able to have kids and I don't want to be lumbered with an MPV for four years if not, but have to plan that we are and we lose a salary etc.

The ideal car for me would be the e-tron TT 4 door/offroader that they have been showing as a concept for several years  - but that doesn't look as though it is on the horizon. (PHEV Tiguan/X1 etc all on their way but too late for when I need to order)

Grrr - still I will just have to get my automotive enjoyment out of the targa and Elan :)
cbeaks1

The Outlander would probably be a good choice if it is the cheapest PHEV.

You have more than enough choice for weekend fun.

Any decent dub 100g diesel 'executive' cars out there?
Frank Bullitt

In which case get the 330e with split seats and be prepared to get a roof box for anything longer than a trip to the shops!
gonnabuildabuggy

JohnC wrote:
When the head has to over-rule the heart for tax reasons, you just know that the tax rates are too high.


Or too low on some cars? The Tax costs on hybrids are very low right now, though obviously that is changing.

In the days of "Free" for electric cars there were a lot of business owners snapping up Tesla's.

Perhaps an A3 Sportback e-tron is a good half way car?

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