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Eff One

Bottas vs Massa

Thoughts?

I'm firmly with Felipe on this one.
Humphrey The Pug

I was surprised he was asked to move over; there were only two laps to go and it's very early days in the championship, I don't really see the logic.

I'm glad Massa ignored the order however I can imagine there may be a heated discussion later on.
Big Blue

I thought it was hilarious. I also assume Bottas brings more cash with him than Massa.....
gooner

I think the way his engineer said it was a bit insensitive. I'm not surprised Massa didn't yeald and if I were him would have had strong words with the boss afterwards.
Chris M Wanted a V-10

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
I was surprised he was asked to move over; there were only two laps to go and it's very early days in the championship, I don't really see the logic.

I'm glad Massa ignored the order however I can imagine there may be a heated discussion later on.

+1
DetmoldDick

I have never been a fan of team orders. Ok, the team should be able to point out to the leading driver not to block an overtake from a faster team-mate, risking a collision.
Bottas, however, made no attempt to overtake. What was Massa supposed to do, pull over and wait for Bottas to catch up?
Martin

Re: Bottas vs Massa

Eff One wrote:
Thoughts?

I'm firmly with Felipe on this one.


So am I.

Bottas didn't trouble Massa much, so it's unlikely he would gave been able to get past Button.  All Massa would gave done is lost a place for nothing.

SKY were likening it to 'Multi 21', but it's completely different.
BeN

Same sentiments as the rest here. Bottas didn't look like he had a much faster pace than Massa, to the point where chasing Button was a viable strategy.

Massa did the right thing IMO
Nice Guy Eddie

Interesting, clearly he never had a problem with Fernando is faster then you I've no idea why he's grown a set of bollocks now but about time. Very odd by Williams to do such a thing so early in the season.
PhilD

Oh dear seems like Massa is everyone's bitch. Where's Rob Smedley gone?
Martin

PhilD wrote:
Where's Rob Smedley gone?


He's Head of Vehicle Performance at Williams.  I gather he's the key link between the factory and the garage over race weekends.
Big Blue

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
Interesting, clearly he never had a problem with Fernando is faster then you


Simple: Fernando was mostly faster than him so he had no problem with that. Plus that huge Santander across the front if all the team shirts reminded him how much "faster" Alonso is every time he looked up. Bottas is in the same position with regard to sponsorship.
Twelfth Monkey

Chris M Wants a V-10 wrote:
Humphrey The Pug wrote:
I was surprised he was asked to move over; there were only two laps to go and it's very early days in the championship, I don't really see the logic.

I'm glad Massa ignored the order however I can imagine there may be a heated discussion later on.

+1


Team orders in race two?  Sheesh.  Whilst not a big fan of team orders, I can see the point when one driver is in a better championship position than the other, but not this early in the season.  A poor choice from Willliams, I think...

Is it just me, or is the actual racing not up to much at the moment?  DRS doesn't seem that effective either.
PhilD

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Chris M Wants a V-10 wrote:
Humphrey The Pug wrote:
I was surprised he was asked to move over; there were only two laps to go and it's very early days in the championship, I don't really see the logic.

I'm glad Massa ignored the order however I can imagine there may be a heated discussion later on.

+1


Team orders in race two?  Sheesh.  Whilst not a big fan of team orders, I can see the point when one driver is in a better championship position than the other, but not this early in the season.  A poor choice from Willliams, I think...


Depends that you think team orders are all about. If the team is a genuine team, and the ultimate goal is to get the best result for the team, then telling a slower driver to move over for a faster one if you think they stand a better change of securing more points is normal. Take football, you might be the team’s star player in the highest wages and with sponsorship deals coming out of your ears but if the manager wants to hoik you off because you are having a stinker that’s his prerogative.
Tim

I only saw the last 6 laps.
Did I miss any excitement?
Twelfth Monkey

Phil, I think I'd define team orders as being told to do what suits the team, at your expense as a driver.  Football might not be the best choice of comparator as it is a team sport and nothing else.  F1 is both team and individual, often with conflicting interests.  I suspect most F1 drivers would happily opt for the drivers' title even if it meant the team lost out on the constructors'.
Big Blue

No, not just you 12th. I saw no racing to speak of. Dullathon springs to mind. Good to see Ricciardo is filling Mark's boots in a full and proper manner, what with being disqualified in one race and having a wheel nearly fall off in another.
PhilD

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
 Football might not be the best choice of comparator as it is a team sport and nothing else.


It's not, the comparison was to a certain view of team and success. If your view is that the team comes first then where the race is in the calendar is largely irrelevant.
Frank Bullitt

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Phil, I think I'd define team orders as being told to do what suits the team, at your expense as a driver.  Football might not be the best choice of comparator as it is a team sport and nothing else.  F1 is both team and individual, often with conflicting interests.  I suspect most F1 drivers would happily opt for the drivers' title even if it meant the team lost out on the constructors'.


I can't really agree with that although I used to. F1 is, first and foremost, a team sport where they employ the two best drivers they can afford that will deliver their goals, if there is a benefit to be had by one driver winning the drivers championship then so be it, but the team is there for the benefit of the owners and investors, not the drivers, the best comparison is something like tennis - this is clearly focused around a single individual who, even with investors and sponsors, is essentially the 'owner' and on their sole performance on the day comes success or failure - F1 (nay, Motorsport) is not the same - yes the squidy bit requires investment but the car requires more and when squidy bits get less capable/ more annoying/ want better success at another team they are replaced.

In the case of Massa v Bottas though, I can't see the point so early on the season unless they've already decided Bottas is part of the teams long term future and Massa is there to give him the benefit of his knowledge.
Twelfth Monkey

I get the impression I'm adopting Massa's perspective, and that possibly you two are seeing the team's?  I'll happily accept that neither is 'right', but I understand Massa's unwillingness to be viewed as No2, this early in the season and in principle after his years at Ferrari.  I suspect 'is there a No1 and No2?' would have been one of the first questions he asked during negotiations.
Tim

Was Bottas on fresher tyres and perhaps in with a chance of having a go at Button?
That would be the only reason I could see for it.
PhilD

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
I get the impression I'm adopting Massa's perspective, and that possibly you two are seeing the team's?  I'll happily accept that neither is 'right', but I understand Massa's unwillingness to be viewed as No2, this early in the season and in principle after his years at Ferrari.  I suspect 'is there a No1 and No2?' would have been one of the first questions he asked during negotiations.


I'm just presenting another angle, not adopting anything!
Frank Bullitt

Definitely, Massa has every reason to be upset so early in the season being expected to yield for no obvious team benefit, which is why I find it so curious as the team appear to be keen to support the personal ambitions of one driver over the other.

I guess my point was, it's the team that calls the shots, not the driver!
Tim

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Definitely, Massa has every reason to be upset so early in the season being expected to yield for no obvious team benefit, which is why I find it so curious as the team appear to be keen to support the personal ambitions of one driver over the other.

I guess my point was, it's the team that calls the shots, not the driver!


I think the issue is that the viewing public are perceived to be far more aware of which individual won the championship and what they were driving follows from that, rather than being aware of who the team was that won.
If you watch the news after a Grand Prix you'll see that, for example, Lewis Hamilton won in a Mercedes, not that a Mercedes won and it was driven by Hamilton, thus the teams (probably grudgingly) go all out for the drivers title.
Eff One

Tim wrote:
Was Bottas on fresher tyres and perhaps in with a chance of having a go at Button?
That would be the only reason I could see for it.


That was the reason given by the team. I can see their point of view, but think they were wrong to ask Massa to move over. There are situations when this sort of team order is reasonable - when the car in front is seriously compromised, or there's a championship at stake - but this wasn't one of them.

It's by no means a given that Bottas would have overtaken Button. If he was that much faster than Massa, then he should have been able to pass without the help of team orders.

Quote:
I find it so curious as the team appear to be keen to support the personal ambitions of one driver over the other.

They reckoned that they could nab a few more constructor's points by overtaking Button. Massa wasn't quick enough. Bottas had newer tyres. Simple as that.
Twelfth Monkey

PhilD wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
I get the impression I'm adopting Massa's perspective, and that possibly you two are seeing the team's?  I'll happily accept that neither is 'right', but I understand Massa's unwillingness to be viewed as No2, this early in the season and in principle after his years at Ferrari.  I suspect 'is there a No1 and No2?' would have been one of the first questions he asked during negotiations.


I'm just presenting another angle, not adopting anything!


One child enough then, eh?!

Frank Bullitt

Tim wrote:
I think the issue is that the viewing public are perceived to be far more aware of which individual won the championship and what they were driving follows from that, rather than being aware of who the team was that won.
If you watch the news after a Grand Prix you'll see that, for example, Lewis Hamilton won in a Mercedes, not that a Mercedes won and it was driven by Hamilton, thus the teams (probably grudgingly) go all out for the drivers title.


Of course, but once you get over the way the press report it, Mercedes Benz are in it to either make money or as a glorious bit of genitalia waving (or both) not to further the career of a specific individual for their own benefit.  I would imagine when sitting down doing a business deal on the back of F1 success, the spreadsheet showing P&L and the revenue opportunities to the team is more important to those you are doing business with than a piccie of Hamilton flicking a smile.

Like footie, the bloke paying at the turnstyles or watching in the pub wearing the shirt is not to be dismissed entirely, but there a bigger fish to fry.
Twelfth Monkey

Williams apologises:

http://www.pitpass.com/51246/Williams-apologises-for-team-orders
Mark

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Williams apologises:

http://www.pitpass.com/51246/Williams-apologises-for-team-orders


Massive respect to her. The team made a mistake and she has taken the courage to admit it rather than come out with some half-baked PR nonsense.

It's also refreshing.
PhilD

Mark wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Williams apologises:

http://www.pitpass.com/51246/Williams-apologises-for-team-orders


Massive respect to her. The team made a mistake and she has taken the courage to admit it rather than come out with some half-baked PR nonsense.

It's also refreshing.


although there's a lot of PR nonsense in there!

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