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Martin

BMW 750d

This will be particularly interesting if the next generation M550d xdrive comes to the UK as expected.

It's a quad turbo unit producing 394hp and 760nm (560lbft), which has been limits because the gearbox can't take any more torque. It gets the 750d to 62mph in 4.5 seconds and is supposed to be 5% more economical than the old tri-turbo engine.
Bob Sacamano

There's no way a quad turbo unit will be as good as a quintuple turbo unit so I'll wait for that.
Twelfth Monkey

I wonder how far they'll take the numbers whilst using a 3l engine.  Would make more sense to number them on output.
Frank Bullitt

It's all a bit Spinal Tap, isn't it...
Big Blue

Lots of froth in the Alpina community about the new block and what Buchloe will do with it.
Racing Teatray

Still sips from the devil's pump though.
Big Blue

Yes. UK Alpina owners tend to be D3 owners, hence my foray to Germany for the Gorilla.
Blarno

I can only imagine the packaging being a massive ballache with 4 turbos.
Alf McQueef

4 spinning bits of metal only a certain mileage (or a manufacturing issue) away from throwing themselves through your entire engine from front to back  destroying everything in their path
Nice Guy Eddie

I'm sure its all very impressive but I'd rather my 750 came with a 5L V12.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
I'm sure its all very impressive but I'd rather my 750 came with a 5L V12.

Me too - the M760iL we saw at Geneva was a far more enticing prospect.
PG

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
I'm sure its all very impressive but I'd rather my 750 came with a 5L V12.

Me too - the M760iL we saw at Geneva was a far more enticing prospect.


That's the ting isn't it. Were it not for the tax incentives to use diesel - which have now been shown to be "killing" everyone with NOX - we would be seeing way more 5L v12, or at least 4L V8 5 and 7 series than we do. All the development money being spent on diesels is, ultimately, wasted. It would be better spent elsewhere. But the market demands it.....
PhilD

PG wrote:
Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
I'm sure its all very impressive but I'd rather my 750 came with a 5L V12.

Me too - the M760iL we saw at Geneva was a far more enticing prospect.


That's the ting isn't it. Were it not for the tax incentives to use diesel - which have now been shown to be "killing" everyone with NOX - we would be seeing way more 5L v12, or at least 4L V8 5 and 7 series than we do. All the development money being spent on diesels is, ultimately, wasted. It would be better spent elsewhere. But the market demands it.....


You're right, the world would be in a much better place if we'd stuck with 10mpg V12s  

Racing Teatray

But perhaps if the money hadn't been spent on diseasel, we would now have 40mpg V12s....
Big Blue

Racing Teatray wrote:
But perhaps if the money hadn't been spent on diseasel, we would now have 40mpg V12s....


This. Cylinder redundancy, start stop even in-wheel electric motors for urban use would be hugely more common. Engines would be sipping fuel at such a low rate it would make the already super efficient petrol turbos look like gas guzzlers.
PhilD

Big Blue wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
But perhaps if the money hadn't been spent on diseasel, we would now have 40mpg V12s....


This. Cylinder redundancy, start stop even in-wheel electric motors for urban use would be hugely more common. Engines would be sipping fuel at such a low rate it would make the already super efficient petrol turbos look like gas guzzlers.


If what? Diesel was banned/taxed out of existence?
Nice Guy Eddie

PhilD wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
But perhaps if the money hadn't been spent on diseasel, we would now have 40mpg V12s....


This. Cylinder redundancy, start stop even in-wheel electric motors for urban use would be hugely more common. Engines would be sipping fuel at such a low rate it would make the already super efficient petrol turbos look like gas guzzlers.


If what? Diesel was banned/taxed out of existence?


Amen brother.
Sav

I would be surprised if this is coming to the UK. There surely aren’t enough RHD markets for a super-fast diesel like this to make converting and selling it viable? I appreciate the mighty torque and pace of the thing, but I struggle to see the point. So it has mighty torque…and you’ll want to use it…your MPG drops…exactly like a big petrol. Only with a big petrol like an M5 with the Competition Pack, you have something wonderful to listen to.

With how much the M550D would likely cost in sterling, I would want to spend that kind of money on a big naughty petrol. The M5 also has Merino leather as standard, whereas the M550D would presumably not, instant saving!
Big Blue

PhilD wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
But perhaps if the money hadn't been spent on diseasel, we would now have 40mpg V12s....


This. Cylinder redundancy, start stop even in-wheel electric motors for urban use would be hugely more common. Engines would be sipping fuel at such a low rate it would make the already super efficient petrol turbos look like gas guzzlers.


If what? Diesel was banned/taxed out of existence?


If the push to convert the mass fleet market to a filthy polluting boat fuel based on one emissions scale had never happened.
Frank Bullitt

Big Blue wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
But perhaps if the money hadn't been spent on diseasel, we would now have 40mpg V12s....


This. Cylinder redundancy, start stop even in-wheel electric motors for urban use would be hugely more common. Engines would be sipping fuel at such a low rate it would make the already super efficient petrol turbos look like gas guzzlers.


740e is 49g of carbon and has a petrol engine (3.0 I think), the 750i (it's a V8 4.4 though) is 186 carbons, the 740i has 154 carbons (blown 3.0 6-pot).

I assume the technical tour-de-force is in the Phantom V12, that must have minimal carbons as a result...
Martin

The 740e has a 2.0 litre 4 pot.  The emissions on the 750i are pretty impressive.
PhilD

Big Blue wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
Racing Teatray wrote:
But perhaps if the money hadn't been spent on diseasel, we would now have 40mpg V12s....


This. Cylinder redundancy, start stop even in-wheel electric motors for urban use would be hugely more common. Engines would be sipping fuel at such a low rate it would make the already super efficient petrol turbos look like gas guzzlers.


If what? Diesel was banned/taxed out of existence?


If the push to convert the mass fleet market to a filthy polluting boat fuel based on one emissions scale had never happened.


But what would have forced the hand of the manufacturers?
JohnC

Martin wrote:
 The emissions on the 750i are pretty impressive.


So impressive that with 186 carbons (which was the norm for a 1.4/1.6 petrol a few years ago) the Government have just moved the company car benefit in kind goalposts and you will still be paying tax on 34% of the list price this year and 37% very shortly thereafter.

With that kind of disincentive I can't see a big engine resurgence in new car sales.
Martin

You're right.  At least the big increases make the opting out man maths easier.
Blarno

Until the tests are clamped down on massively and every engine, no matter what fuel, will be penalised to death
Big Blue

By quoting the Carbon Monoxide emissions, the measure of the idiots in charge, you are simply exacerbating the problem. Diesel throws out far more horrors than petrol when combusted but this measure is not enforced across the national fleets via taxation in the same way CO is.

As petrolheads let me ask a simple question of you all:

When you dreamed of cars you wanted to own when you were small boys, how many were diesels?

I rest my case.
Frank Bullitt

Big Blue wrote:
By quoting the Carbon Monoxide emissions


Carbon Dioxide, Carbon Monoxide is quite different

Big Blue wrote:
As petrolheads let me ask a simple question of you all:

When you dreamed of cars you wanted to own when you were small boys, how many were diesels?

I rest my case.


True, but the reality of a 55bhp 4-speed Astra or Escort with plastic headrests and a non-FM stereo compared to a Countach or 512BB shows much hasn't changed in that respect.

I don't think there are many diesel super cars yet so you can still dream about big power and petrol even if the reality is a car with 1/6 of the power, I guess the main difference is things like Range Rovers not having big petrol but big diesel but having driven a current model I wouldn't bemoan this at all.
Big Blue

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
By quoting the Carbon Monoxide emissions


Carbon Dioxide, Carbon Monoxide is quite different



Sorry; stupid error by non-chemist
PhilD

Big Blue wrote:


When you dreamed of cars you wanted to own when you were small boys, how many were diesels?

I rest my case.


I was too busy dreaming about cylinder redundancy, start stop and in-wheel electric motors.

Case dismissed.
Martin

I bet you didn't dream of a big grey estate car either, I certainly didn't!

Of course I didn't dream of a diesel I still don't (they are a very different proposition now) but I've always loved the idea of effortless performance and there are always compromises to be made in life.  Obviously you can get the same effortless performance with a big petrol engine, but they have their compromises too.

It does help when you have something you did dream of in the garage.
TreVoR

I wouldn't want to run a big petrol engine as a daily drive again.  Both the Subaru and the Mercedes were heavy on fuel.  Even at today's prices, I would be spending a small fortune.

At one point in 2013, I was spending about £700 per month in petrol alone.   My fuel spend now is typically about £100 or so per month.

A V8 Defender appealed hugely, but appalling fuel economy and even worse range from a tiny tank would make using it as a daily car harder work than the 300Tdi.
JohnC

I did Glasgow to Blairgowrie and back on Wednesday, passed everything in front with ease and got 44.6mpg. It is a head over heart decision I agree but if I had bought a big petrol and only got about half the mpg my heart wouldn't be feeling quite so happy and my head would be nipping.

I live comfortably with my decision, the car goes seriously well and it even makes a nice growl under acceleration.
Big Blue

I guess if I did double the 6k miles per annum I currently eke out I'd be concerned. As to dream machines, I have a vehicle with 177bhp per litre and around 900bhp per tonne that does 36+mpg which I use every day of the week that fits the bill.

Never get anywhere near the level of ability of the machine, though

ETA: the actual power to weight was 1BHP/kg dry. With me on it that is reduced DRASTICALLY as I am 100kgs but relatively devastating all the same.
Blarno

When I can get a 2.0 petrol that has 250 lb/ft of torque and will do 40 mpg no matter how you drive it, and I can get it for less than a grand, I'll go back to petrol for a daily driver.
Alf McQueef

Martin wrote:


Of course I didn't dream of a diesel I still don't (they are a very different proposition now) but I've always loved the idea of effortless performance and there are always compromises to be made in life.  Obviously you can get the same effortless performance with a big petrol engine, but they have their compromises too.



I struggle to disagree with this, despite myself - you have to really WANT the really big petrol engine's noise and characteristics in a big heavy car compared to a large 6+ pot diesel. It costs a shit load more in fuel, through the actual overall emissions are better for the environment, arguably. Most of the time I feel like I'm really going quite quickly I'm only using half throttle and about 4k revs and a good diesel would feel much the same. I'm happy paying the extra but millions would not!

In true supercars, and in sporty cars with small engines, especially soft tops, hot hatches, and so on the petrol makes a stronger case. Why anyone would want a soft top sports car, or something like a (non-SUV) Maserati or Porsche with a diesel engine is entirely beyond me... and there has been very little love for the diesel "hot" hatches in Evo long term tests, I note... But in an SUV or really big heavy car, why not a diesel? Just not a bloody 4-pot like they mostly seem to be in E class/5 series cars these days! And do still make some V8 petrols for the nutjobs like me!
Martin

And I struggle to disagree with you!

I often think about something like an M5, but I don't use all the performance I have now all the time and I already spend over £300 a month on private fuel, another £250+ is a lot more and that's before you get to range which I know would drive me mad.  It wouldn't sound as good as the Boxster either.  I think I'd rather spend the extra money on a 740d (or similar)
PhilD

Big Blue wrote:
I am 100kgs but relatively devastating all the same.


I'm still laughing this  
Tim

We're using the M5 and 370 for our daily commute now, at 21 and 28 mpg respectively.
It's only 13 miles each way though and there are plenty of places to use the performance, even for a few seconds, which makes it all worthwhile.

When Mrs Tim drops me off I get to hear the car driven away up a city street with high buildings on either side.
The little burble the 370 does during the 1st to 2nd gearchange makes me smile every time  
PG

Petrol v diesel. Yes, it can be rationalised and people have done a great job of that above - in both directions. And we all agree on that.

I would have said it is a head v heart thing really. I've driven a few XF diesel 3.0S's. They are quick, efficient, comfy and so on. And in most situations in the real world, quite fast enough. They are very efficient and damn good machines. A head decision - tax, range, benefit in kind etc etc. But compared to the XFR they lack "soul", that indefinable but real "feeling".
Frank Bullitt

PG wrote:
I would have said it is a head v heart thing really. I've driven a few XF diesel 3.0S's. They are quick, efficient, comfy and so on. And in most situations in the real world, quite fast enough. They are very efficient and damn good machines. A head decision - tax, range, benefit in kind etc etc. But compared to the XFR they lack "soul", that indefinable but real "feeling".


I wouldn't say it is necessarily head v heart - given the running costs are typically a defined figure (which you can man maths to a degree) the option may well be a BMW 320i v a BMW 525d, you may want the larger car, space etc so on the budget that is the car that tugs at you most. I can appreciate man-maths come into it but an XF-R v a 3.0S is not quite a direct comparison apart from the badge on he centre of the wheel - I doubt many people who are treating themselves to a 3.0S will be in a position to buy an XF-R but they may have discounted an XE 2.0i on the way!

I would have got a DS4 200THP Sport if there were any on the market when I was looking - I hadn't really put too much thought into PCP's ending 6 months later on 61 plate cars and that there would shortly be a decent supply. However, in head v heart keeping the Picasso or buying a DS4 meant the latter won easily...even though it's a diesel!
Martin

Good points.  You can't generalise and say petrol vs diesel is head vs heart, well you can but I don't think it's that simple.  I've driven a lot of good and bad cars with both Petrol and Diesel engines.

If my head ruled my heart, then I would have got another 520d, probably a lightly used one to save even more money.  I could run a 2-3 year old M5 for a similar amount per month, just with more risk of a bill, but I wouldn't.   Might be different if we had another second car, but it would still be a compromise as its still a big heavy saloon car after all

We weren't that excited by the XF S either, nice car but not exciting in any way.
Alf McQueef

I know that, for me, I like all the stuff (a lot of which is probably strongly disliked by many!) like the aero bits, sports seats with logos on, overly loud exhausts, and so on that comes with the top of the range sports model, I also like just having the top of the range model. The GTA and XFR are of all my cars the ones I have "felt it" for the most... It's not that I care what others think either, they just feed my inner child... When Mrs ALF drove off in the XFR the other day I was standing behind it, and the noise..... its worth a lot to me!
Twelfth Monkey

Have to agree with that, assisted by the fact that I do relatively few miles, so the fuel cost is far from punitive.  Every journey, no matter how slow or brief, is dominated by the mechanical heart (and soul, sorry) of the car in a way that I'd be crushed to lose.
Martin

I've been on the other side today.  We went out for a bit of a drive and a nice lunch in the Boxster...sunshine, roof down, sports exhaust, nice roads...perfect.  It still gives me goosebumps.
Giant

Martin wrote:
I've been on the other side today.  We went out for a bit of a drive and a nice lunch in the Boxster...sunshine, roof down, sports exhaust, nice roads...perfect.  It still gives me goosebumps.


McDonald's drive through?  
Andy C

Giant wrote:
Martin wrote:
I've been on the other side today.  We went out for a bit of a drive and a nice lunch in the Boxster...sunshine, roof down, sports exhaust, nice roads...perfect.  It still gives me goosebumps.


McDonald's drive through?  


That was my first thought too, what with those black wheels and upgraded exhaust
Martin

No idea what you're talking about.  Is it a tarted up hatchback thing?  
PhilD

Martin wrote:
No idea what you're talking about.  Is it a tarted up hatchback thing?  


My guess is you drove around for ages looking for a trendy pizza restaurant with seating out the front and a parking space right outside  
Big Blue

Boxter with black wheels = currywurst and sauerkraut with a bottle of Bitburger I reckon.

Chris M Wanted a V-10

Martin wrote:
..... and a nice lunch in the Boxster....  It still gives me goosebumps.


Drive-through curry house, maybe ???
Martin

A bit surprised by the fascination about my lunch...just a nice pub in the Cambridgeshire countryside.
Frank Bullitt

Hope you enjoyed my Manor!
Big Blue

Martin wrote:
A bit surprised by the fascination about my lunch...just a nice pub in the Cambridgeshire countryside.


Just a bit a forum arsery
Giant

Big Blue wrote:
Martin wrote:
A bit surprised by the fascination about my lunch...just a nice pub in the Cambridgeshire countryside.


Just a bit a forum arsery


Indeed  

It was the wording of your post that read as though you ate in the boxster that triggered it!
Martin

Giant wrote:
It was the wording of your post that read as though you ate in the boxster that triggered it!


You should know me better, eating in the car would never happen    

Frank Bullitt wrote:
Hope you enjoyed my Manor!


We did!  We like Cambridge in particular, but there are plenty of nice places.  Lindsay was showing me the roads she loves driving on when she goes to her head office.  Pretty much all B roads, passing just south of Grafham and then onto Tempsford.  They are decent roads and pass through some nice countryside.
PhilD

Martin wrote:
Giant wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
Martin wrote:
A bit surprised by the fascination about my lunch...just a nice pub in the Cambridgeshire countryside.


Just a bit a forum arsery


Indeed  

It was the wording of your post that read as though you ate in the boxster that triggered it!


You should know me better, eating in the car would never happen    


I've had to break my 'no food in the car' rule a few times recently with mini D.. Brings me out in a rash every time..
Martin

The kids have never been allowed to do it, only water is allowed!  My Dad was exactly the same.
PhilD

Rules were a bit different growing up, 8 kids in the back of a campervan different!
Frank Bullitt

Martin wrote:
Pretty much all B roads, passing just south of Grafham and then onto Tempsford.  They are decent roads and pass through some nice countryside.


You were within pissing distance - did you come via the B645? It's a decent road with some nice straights and nice bends, where it crosses the A1 is about 500 yards from our pad.

Tempsford is a strange old place, mind.
Martin

Yes, the B645 all the way from Higham to the A1.  We use some of that road a fair bit as we've friends in Kimbolton and like to cycle/walk around Grafham Water, as its only 20mins from home.  I thought we must have been pretty close to your place, didn't realise it was that close!  

Didn't go into Tempsford itself, just a quick look at the offices (Tempsford Hall).
Frank Bullitt

She works for Kier then? If she is in your local office she'll probably know Gary Barnes...6 degrees of separation and all that!

If you joined the A1 South, the roundabout as you leave the Estate is 50 yards from FB Junior's school and we live just over the back.

Instead of going on to the A1, carry on down Great North road and turn right at the next roundabout on to Duloe road (if you turn left I live down there), from there you can use a variety of country roads to get to Black Cat roundabout, all of them lovely just follow signs to Chawston - this is the route I use on a morning to avoid the A1 to Black Cat
Martin

That's right she heads up their indirect procurement team.  What team is Gary in?

I'll give that route a go at some point.

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