Dr. Hfuhruhurr
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BMW 523i SE Touring automaticNeeded a replacement car for the weekend while mine is in the menders. I'd hoped for a new E Class but Sixt didn't have any, but offered me this or an A6. Having not driven the latest E60 I thought it was worth a try, and even more pleased to discover it was a petrol six not a diesel four. It was black with black/alu interior, which is probably what I'd choose on a Five. Being an SE it had 16" wheels, but surprisingly they didn't look undersized, perhaps because the SE doesn't have the bigger skirts and spoiler of the M Sport.
First impressions were very good. Black is obviously a good colour, and the interior is way better quality than early E60s. The new iDrive with a few "master" controls grouped around the rotary knob is an excellent way to provide lots of functionality with minimum clutter - indeed the minimalist centre console with its alu trim looked rather like high-end hi-fi gear. I quite like the new automatic gearstick too - preferable to a column stalk IMHO. And it had a real handbrake, not that I used it, being either in relatively flat Berlin-Brandenburg or even flatter Ostfriesland.
The first job was to drive the 300 miles from Berlin to Wilhelmshafen, and not surprisingly it proved a superb autobahn car. It was incredibly quiet and refined, but the six had a nice growl on acceleration. What a superb drivetrain - that lovely engine, which never seemed underpowered despite a quite heavy car to haul around, and an auto 'box that in sport mode always seemed to be in the right gear, neither "hunting" nor holding gears too long.
Obviously it didn't handle like my usual wheels, but it was perfectly linear in the way all the best BMWs are. The non sport suspension and 16" wheels meant a smooth cosseting ride without any real sacrifice in body control, even when I rounded a forest bend at some speed to find a section of old sagged cobbles (I allowed myself a brief shudder at the thought of hitting them in the Porsche).
Anything I didn't like? I'd be struggling to find anything without nit-picking, to be honest. The front seats were comfy, the back seats roomy, the boot vast. It's funny how the arrival of the new E Class and XF mean motoring journalists feel the need to slag off the 5 series, but on the basis of this, it's still a formidably capable, and more importantly, likeable car. Martin, if you're worried about its imminent replacement, I'd just say don't be - I can't believe anything else on your list would come close to matching it. And I'd take the SE over the M Sport too - I find the subtle full-width lower grille so much nicer than the M's gawping maw - and I notice Alpina base their model on the SE as well.
How quick? An indicated 235 kmh on one clear Autobahn section, in company with a spiritedly driven XJ.
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Guitar Zero
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| Quote: | | It's funny how the arrival of the new E Class and XF mean motoring journalists feel the need to slag off the 5 series |
Do you think the clue as to why this is so might lie within the following comment ?
| Quote: | | The non sport suspension and 16" wheels meant a smooth cosseting ride without any real sacrifice in body control |
All UK SEs have come with 17 inch wheels shod with runflats for a good few years now - BMW never fitted 16 inch run flat tyres to the E60 and the E60 was originally tuned to run on standard fit 16 inch standard tyres. My dad had an E60 on standard 16s and it was lovely to drive - I even thought it looked good enough (although I suspect the every inch counts big wheel bullies will disagree).
Where as this
Was a hard riding, rattly, crashy bag of shite - and it still manages to look curiousy underwheeled at the back despite the staggered 18s.
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Dr. Hfuhruhurr
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I'm sure that's true, although my point was more about journalists' short attention spans, i.e. when a new car comes along they wet their pants over it, then proceed to slag off an older car that they were raving about only a couple a months before.
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Martin
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Very interesting!
I am undecided between the SE and M Sport. The M Sport on 19s was perfectly fine in terms of ride, but I really do need to try it on 18" RFTs. It would be interesting to compare that to the SE as well.
However, I was never bothered by the 130 on 18" RFTs and never understood what all the fuss was about, so what do I know? 
In my opinion, the M Sport looks a lot better than the SE and it's not all to do with the bigger wheels!! I also think the SE will look dated more quickly, that's certainly what happened to the E46 as an example. Then there is the Sport seats and while the SE seats in the 5 are vastly better than the SE seats in a 3 (so not essential as they would be in a 3 series), I do like/prefer the sports seats.
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gonnabuildabuggy
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| Martin wrote: | Very interesting!
I am undecided between the SE and M Sport. The M Sport on 19s was perfectly fine in terms of ride, but I really do need to try it on 18" RFTs. It would be interesting to compare that to the SE as well.
However, I was never bothered by the 130 on 18" RFTs and never understood what all the fuss was about, so what do I know?
In my opinion, the M Sport looks a lot better than the SE and it's not all to do with the bigger wheels!! I also think the SE will look dated more quickly, that's certainly what happened to the E46 as an example. Then there is the Sport seats and while the SE seats in the 5 are vastly better than the SE seats in a 3 (so not essential as they would be in a 3 series), I do like/prefer the sports seats. |
You might be surprised but I agree with you.
In terms of day to day then I'm sure the SE would probably be the best option but the looks and seats of the MSport would sway me, plus it won't date as much (all Sport models 5 series (E34, E39) still look the dogs to me.)
There will be a difference to the 130 though as the weights of the cars are vastly different so spring rates/settings will be radically different I'd guess.
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Dr. Hfuhruhurr
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The sport seats would certainly be a factor, but I cannot get on with the M Sport front bumper. I find the SE one far more tasteful, and since it's been facelifted, possibly less likely to look dated.
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Martin
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I am surprised 
My point about the 130 was more to do with it being slated for its ride quality, but I found it perfectly acceptable. I'm expecting the 5 to ride better with more weight and a longer wheelbase? It certainly rode better on 19" wheels with standard tyres.
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Martin
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| Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote: | | The sport seats would certainly be a factor, but I cannot get on with the M Sport front bumper. I find the SE one far more tasteful, and since it's been facelifted, possibly less likely to look dated. |
It does look better post face lift, but then so did the previous 5 and the Sport still looks a lot less dated now.
Apologies for hijacking your post, but it's sort of on topic 
My favourite colour and spec options for the SE and M Sport. The ony differences is that I would have Cream Beige/Black which means everything from the armrests down is black and even though I don't like wood trim, I prefer the Anthracite Bamboo to the black plastic and aluminium doesn't look right with cream beige. The bottom picture is a manual with Anthracite Bamboo, I can't find one with the right interior trim as it's only just become an option. Looks good on the configurator through.
SE (Deep Sea Blue with upgraded alloys)
M Sport (Le Mans Blue)
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Dr. Hfuhruhurr
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| Martin wrote: | | Apologies for hijacking your post, but it's sort of on topic. |
No problem - one of the reasons for doing this write up is because you're considering a Five.
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Martin
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| Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote: | | Martin wrote: | | Apologies for hijacking your post, but it's sort of on topic. |
No problem - one of the reasons for doing this write up is because you're considering a Five. |
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Martin
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The problem is that I'm quickly going off the idea of putting my own money into a company car, as it just seems wrong even though it's somewhere I'll be spending a lot of my time over the next 3 years.
The SE makes sense from that point of view, as it's on the normal list even in Business Edition trim. However, if you add Sports seats & wheel and the nicer 17" alloys, then you're up around the £600 mark. So 'only' another £400 for the M Sport 
But then I know I would be pissed off whenever I saw an M Sport. So I could have a part leather, non bluetooth equipped M Sport and get a car kit fitted (which are ugly). But then I'd wish I had the full leather.....
Sorry, I'll leave it there!!
What about a Passat CC, they are lovely?
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Guitar Zero
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| Quote: | | I'm sure that's true, although my point was more about journalists' short attention spans, i.e. when a new car comes along they wet their pants over it, then proceed to slag off an older car that they were raving about only a couple a months before. |
I haven't read anyone slagging off the E60 recently - granted their have been criticisms regarding it's well known weaknesses that are now highlighted by the quality of the two brand new cars offered by Mercedes and Jaguar, but it was the just replaced E-class that got the biggest kicking - that went from class champ to barely better than A6 in a very short space of time. It's only natural that the E60's star would fade now that it's nearly 7 years old and up against two brand new designs
If anything, the E60 seems to be enjoying some fantastic write ups in it's twilight years - see the XF 3.0 S vs 535d twin test in Autocar. Maybe the E60 would still be top of the tree if BMW GB took a leaf out of BMW Deutschland's book and put the silly wheels and silly tyres on the options list. Merc weren't daft giving Autocar an E250cdi on the weeniest rims
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Racing
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| Guitar Zero wrote: | | Merc weren't daft giving Autocar an E250cdi on the weeniest rims |
No, because weeny rims are hardly going to spoil the car's great looks!!
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Dr. Hfuhruhurr
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| Guitar Zero wrote: | | If anything, the E60 seems to be enjoying some fantastic write ups in it's twilight years - see the XF 3.0 S vs 535d twin test in Autocar. Maybe the E60 would still be top of the tree if BMW GB took a leaf out of BMW Deutschland's book and put the silly wheels and silly tyres on the options list. Merc weren't daft giving Autocar an E250cdi on the weeniest rims |
There was a comparison test in Car (I know, I know) a while back where they gave the 530i a serious slagging off.
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gonnabuildabuggy
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Solution.
Opt out - take the cash and buy a 2yr old Mondeo for £6K - used the saved money to buy an X5 for Mrs. Martin.
I'm sure she'll sign up to that plan
Audi Sportback, Audi Sportback, Audi Sportback......
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Guitar Zero
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Erm - wouldn't the annual tax bill on a 520d be less than the cost to buy and run an old Mondeo over 35k miles for two years ?
A company car is taxed every year, serviced or repaired when required and kept in fresh booties - all you do is wang diesel in it and get 45 to 50 mpg in return. Can you even get a 2 year old diesel Mondo for £6k ? - I think you would be in a 2.0 petrol which over 35k miles per annum is another 300 gallons of fuel (assuming 35 mpg) per year.
This time, the bangernomic maffs don't add up
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TimR
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| gonnabuildabuggy wrote: | | Audi Sportback, Audi Sportback, Audi Sportback...... |
Baaaaaaa, baaaaaaa.
Mind you if he got a 2.0TDi he could then drive like he had a Nissan GT-R.
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Martin
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| Guitar Zero wrote: | Erm - wouldn't the annual tax bill on a 520d be less than the cost to buy and run an old Mondeo over 35k miles for two years ?
A company car is taxed every year, serviced or repaired when required and kept in fresh booties - all you do is wang diesel in it and get 45 to 50 mpg in return. Can you even get a 2 year old diesel Mondo for £6k ? - I think you would be in a 2.0 petrol which over 35k miles per annum is another 300 gallons of fuel (assuming 35 mpg) per year.
This time, the bangernomic maffs don't add up |
GZ is right, the maths don’t add up. The cash alternative works out at £350 net a month and that even takes into account not getting free fuel, which you can’t have when you opt out. The free fuel alone means it doesn’t help add up, because I’d be spending £90 a week on fuel even if I keep my weekend mileage down. That’s all my allowance gone!
The saving in tax (based on the 520) would be £290 a month (car and fuel) so I’d have about £300/month all in to spend on my own car. Take off tax/insurance/servicing, which must be a minimum of £1000 pa and I would have circa £2600 a year to fund a car with. That’s not going to compare that favourably with a brand new £30k+ something.
Now I’m not an accountant (so it might not be 100% accurate!), but I can’t get that to work!!
Now if I lived closer to work then it might work out, but for the miles I do and where I live, it just doesn’t make sense.
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Martin
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If the A5 sportback has the same driving position as the A4, then that alone would rule it out.
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gonnabuildabuggy
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| Guitar Zero wrote: | Erm - wouldn't the annual tax bill on a 520d be less than the cost to buy and run an old Mondeo over 35k miles for two years ?
A company car is taxed every year, serviced or repaired when required and kept in fresh booties - all you do is wang diesel in it and get 45 to 50 mpg in return. Can you even get a 2 year old diesel Mondo for £6k ? - I think you would be in a 2.0 petrol which over 35k miles per annum is another 300 gallons of fuel (assuming 35 mpg) per year.
This time, the bangernomic maffs don't add up |
Yep, but your company also gives you £700+ per month for not bothering their fleet department? That said what's the annual tax cost on a 520d?
also depends on the petrol rate - it used to be good at HRG when I was there so all the big mileage guys opted out to get themselves something tastier and make some money into the bargain.
EDIT - is £350 net all you'd get? I think my gross allowance was £600 per month and my best entitlement car was a Volvo S60 D5 SE.
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Martin
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Calculations already done, 2 posts up!
Fuel is 11p a mile if you opt out and get a 2.0 litre diesel.
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Martin
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| gonnabuildabuggy wrote: | | is £350 net all you'd get? I think my gross allowance was £600 per month and my best entitlement car was a Volvo S60 D5 SE. |
Yes. On the grade I think you would have been at to get an S60, the opt out amount is £3768/year or £316.50 a month. That's the band that now gets you up to a 320d SE/123d M Sport/Accord 2.2 EX GT/A4 Avant Exec SE etc. That jumps up to £7107, so circa £355 a month net including you giving up the option of free fuel!
The lists and allowances have changes a lot since I've been here.
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gonnabuildabuggy
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and for the better by the look of it
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DaveGibson
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It doesn't apply to private miles (that includes travelling between home and work) but owning your own car you can claim the difference between your company's mileage rate and that allowed by the taxman for business miles. It used to be 40p/mile for the first 10k miles and a lesser rate thereafter.
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Guitar Zero
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I think the cost of the Mondeo goes through the roof when you consider how you would fund the £6k to buy it.
It wouldn't be financially sound to forgoe a deposit free company car only to blow £6k savings on a Mondeo - you would use your allowance to pay off a £6k loan. Assuming your £6k Mondeo is 2 years old with 30k miles on it, it would probably be sensible to get rid off it at 100k miles (i.e, run it for 2 years). £6k loan over 2 years would be approx £275 a month and the value of the car at 4 years and 100k miles would be circa £1800 trade.
Or if you use cash outright - bank on £4.2k depreciation every 2 years plus the interest lost on not having your £6k in an ISA or shares or summat. Call it £200 a month all in.
You've just got to tax, insure, service, re-shoe, re-brake and repair it now.
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DaveGibson
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It obviously depends on how much the allowance from the company is and all the other costs. When I opted out of my company scheme in the late nineties, I made a gain of £11K over three years compared with the cost to me of having a company car. Admittedly, in that scheme my car wasn't 'free'. I was paying £250 a month for the car and paid for my own petrol, too.
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the other ct
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Is this now the third thread about Martin's new car?
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gonnabuildabuggy
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| DaveGibson wrote: | | It obviously depends on how much the allowance from the company is and all the other costs. When I opted out of my company scheme in the late nineties, I made a gain of £11K over three years compared with the cost to me of having a company car. Admittedly, in that scheme my car wasn't 'free'. I was paying £250 a month for the car and paid for my own petrol, too. |
My S60 "made" me £4000 over 2.5 yrs - that's all running costs, depreciation, interest, servicing, tax, etc. The Saab broke even but only because I sold it within 12 months. As you say it depends on:
1. Car allowance.
2. Private miles.
3. Mileage rate.
4. What you buy and how well.
5. Personal tax rate
6. what you choose to benchmark as the car you save on the tax charge on.
7. Lots more stuff.
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Martin
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| the other ct wrote: | | Is this now the third thread about Martin's new car? |
Sorry 
I'd forgotten about the mileage allowance, which would make a difference, but don't you have to wait until the second year to get an adjustment on your tax code?
I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that we're comparing the costs of running an old Mondeo with a brand new £30k car. Now I know most people don't find it that interesting an option (a 2.0 diesel saloon), but I know which I would choose!!
If I was going to opt out, it would be for something better than the company car option. I might even go for something 1 to 2 years old to get the maths to work
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DaveGibson
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| Martin wrote: | | .......... I might even go for something 1 to 2 years old to get the maths to work |
That's effectively what I did. I bought my existing company car when it was 14 months old for about half its new price (using money I already had so the finance cost was just the loss of interest).
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Mark
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I'm no company car fan - but if I was doing 35,000 business miles per year, there is no way I would even contemplate opting out of the company scheme.
If I was just tootling 10 miles to work and back though, I'd be out like a shot. A friend of mine was doing similar and now has around £500 per month in his pocket.
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gonnabuildabuggy
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| Martin wrote: | I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that we're comparing the costs of running an old Mondeo with a brand new £30k car. Now I know most people don't find it that interesting an option (a 2.0 diesel saloon), but I know which I would choose!!
If I was going to opt out, it would be for something better than the company car option. I might even go for something 1 to 2 years old to get the maths to work |
My original post was meant to be cause discussion - I can't see Martin in a 2yr old Mondeo somehow!
The best route I'd say is what you suggest - get something 1 to 2 yrs old but better than the car option (7 series diesel?), however your mileage might kill that option a bit.
The Mondeo makes sense if you use the saving to fund a better 2nd or 3rd car. As a day to day car an old shape Mondeo is still a nice car but then you need to remember that the you've something better at home.
On a serious note - are you planning to do that commute forever? I find losing 2 hrs a day in the car frustrating and 3 would be untenable.
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Martin
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Not for ever
It doesn't seem to take anywhere near as long as it used to and I do like driving! It's not like it's on public transport, that would be too awful to comtemplate!! I probably need to sync a move closer to work with my next car replacement date. Opt out then and get something more interesting. Maybe.
I do get some quality thinking time and I probably shouldn't admit it, but I probably spend an hour a day on the phone, so without the commute that would be done at home or I'd be in the office for an extra hour.
On a less serious note, wouldn't a 2 year old Mondeo be a current shape one? That's not so bad!! After all, I am driving around in a 2 week old Jetta
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Mark
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| Martin wrote: | | On a less serious note, wouldn't a 2 year old Mondeo be a current shape one? That's not so bad!! After all, I am driving around in a 2 week old Jetta |
I know you're joking - but you can't actually get into a current shape Mondeo without spending the thick end of £10k.
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Martin
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Exactly, his master plan is so full of holes!!!
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PG
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A lot of the car v cash debate hinges on why the company offers the choice. We decided to get rid of the car fleet. So the allowances were generous in being set at the same cash cost as the company used to have (car + unrecoverable VAT + insurance + class 1A NI, less NI on the payroll instead) plus free fuel was continued. So by the time people got the tax allowance back on business miles tax deductions and no BIK, cash wise they were no worse off. The company saved the hassle of running a car fleet and one part time member of staff that used to run the fleet.
People then decided what to do with the cash based on their miles and needs. To make sure that fuel bills did not go silly, the same engine size limits were maintained for each band of car allowance.
Sounds like Martin's firm don't really want you to opt out.
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