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Michael

BMW 5 series Touring

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news...uring-unveiled-ahead-geneva-debut

Twelfth Monkey

I'm sure it'll be class-leading, but I struggle to tell one rung of the ladder from the next.  Maybe this is why people buy SUVs?
Michael

In fairness it's easy to tell this isn't a 7 series - but only because they don't do a 7 estate.
It's a lot like that Lexus, in many ways. Nice profile but let down by some terrible details. Those bumpers are horribly over styled and I'm no fan of the wonky exhausts.
PhilD

Don't like the door handles.
Twelfth Monkey

Now that I see it, I can't stop noticing what I presume is a sensor between the two halves of the grille.  It's like a spot, although in this case at least it's not disfiguring a beauty queen.
boc70

PhilD wrote:
Don't like the door handles.


It's ok, they're just fakes. The real ones are hidden in the lower front bumper.
Martin

A couple of details aside (agree with Michael, especially the exhausts), that looks pretty good and nicer than the saloon again.  The interior is fantastic.
PhilD

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Now that I see it, I can't stop noticing what I presume is a sensor between the two halves of the grille.  


It's the fast lane laser, which I thought they would have hidden a bit better.
Martin

That's an option I'd consider.

The lower grille might be different without voodoo cruise, but it won't be as obvious at a normal viewing angle.
Bob Sacamano

3 series Touring isn't it? Virtually identical inside and out.
Twelfth Monkey

PhilD wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Now that I see it, I can't stop noticing what I presume is a sensor between the two halves of the grille.  


It's the fast lane laser, which I thought they would have hidden a bit better.


For incinerating the plebs?
DetmoldDick

That "key" looks just like my PC mouse x1.25
PhilD

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Now that I see it, I can't stop noticing what I presume is a sensor between the two halves of the grille.  


It's the fast lane laser, which I thought they would have hidden a bit better.


For incinerating the plebs?


That or it overrides the ECU and moves them out of the way.
simonp

Why does it have LED fairy lights in the bumper and in the headlights?
Martin

They are LED fog lights
simonp

LEDs don't work in fog. And before you say "yes they do", I was driving to work the other night in fog and a 5 series with LED headlights went the other way. The beam from its lights was being randomly scattered by the wet fog and blinded me for a few seconds. I was not overly impressed. Unless they've radically changed the colour spectrum of those foglights (ie made them a lot yellower) I can't see them being any good at all...
Martin

Yes they do!  

I'm not sure how you can come to such a definitive answer by observing a car driving in the opposite direction.  And before you say the Leon had them, we've already established they are LED Lites and are crap.  

Seriously.....I've driven in quite a bit of fog and not had any problems.   If you put the fog lights on, the headlight beam goes lower and wider, which made quite a difference and would reduce the chance of blinding other road users. There was some glare, but you get that with Xenons.

Are you sure the 5 Series had LED headlights, didn't realise you were a spotter!
Big Blue

Not a fan of the overly-wide grille nor the fatter rear lights. I think the B5 variant is also due at Geneva.

The current penchant for "floating" touchscreen is simply vile: there must be some more elegant solution - the Tesla manages it.
Martin

Having one car with a screen in the centre console and driven a couple, a higher screen is definitely better (especially if you don't have HUD), but I agree that the tablet stuck on the dash look is not a good solution aesthetically.
PG

Michael wrote:
It's a lot like that Lexus, in many ways. Nice profile but let down by some terrible details. Those bumpers are horribly over styled and I'm no fan of the wonky exhausts.


Quite agree re the front bumper. Overstyled front and rear bumpers seems to be a BMW speciality at the moment. so a nice shape, with too much detailing.

And the world as we know it has ended - BMW have officially gone with wanky exhausts. I had hoped the 7 series was a plutocrat special one off, but no, the 5 series touring has them now as well. That's it. It's all over. Civilisation is finished.

I can only hope that if I stand in one spot and wait patiently, design will go full circle back to me  and we'll come back to a far more classical less is more approach.
Martin

You can still get proper (round) exhausts, the SE gets one either side, F10/F11 535 style.  So a 520d SE will have better exhausts than a 540i M Sport....


Tim

If you toned down the front bumper slightly, narrowed the grilles slightly and sprayed it black then it'd be identical to the 3 year old 3 series I've got.

What do their styling dept do exactly?
PhilD

Martin wrote:
You can still get proper (round) exhausts, the SE gets one either side, F10/F11 535 style.  So a 520d SE will have better exhausts than a 540i M Sport....




Looks like a...
Big Blue

How about the screen where it is now and the top section of the dash flowing into one - possibly making the auxiliary heating controls part of a lower touch screen?

I realise there is a likelihood that in some poverty spec cars there will be no huge screen so designing the entire dash to house one was probably considered overkill. I used to like the A8 one that vanished into the dash so at night you could have nothing there.
Martin

On the subject of over styling, Mercedes have said they're going for cleaner surfaces and less ornamentation in future designs.  Sounds good to me.

http://www.evo.co.uk/mercedes/187...e=newsletter&tpid=78156148866
Chip Butty

Lovely interior, not sure about the exterior

At Geneva, Jag will be launching the XF sportbrake - which will be the exact opposite of the above.
PhilD

Big Blue wrote:
there must be some more elegant solution - the Tesla manages it.


Big Blue

PhilD wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
there must be some more elegant solution - the Tesla manages it.




To not stick a fake iPad on the dash, I meant, not that theirs is particularly elegant.
PhilD

Big Blue wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
there must be some more elegant solution - the Tesla manages it.




To not stick a fake iPad on the dash, I meant, not that theirs is particularly elegant.


You're right, Tesla's efforts looks nothing like an Ipad stuck on the dash.  
PG

PhilD wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
there must be some more elegant solution - the Tesla manages it.




To not stick a fake iPad on the dash, I meant, not that theirs is particularly elegant.


You're right, Tesla's efforts looks nothing like an Ipad stuck on the dash.  


Agreed. It looks more like they replaced the centre stack with a 27 inch iMac screen turned through 90 degrees.
PG

Chip Butty wrote:
At Geneva, Jag will be launching the XF sportbrake - which will be the exact opposite of the above.


I am looking forward to seeing the XF Sportbrake.
Alf McQueef

This new 5 is fine, but it follows the trend for making all the models in a range look exactly the same, just slightly different sizes. It's a Russian doll styling strategy...

I'll be interested to see the XF sportbrake (and the XE version - if there is one coming - presumably the XF minus about 5% in size). I'm still drawn to estates over saloons in some ways - despite not really missing the practicality - though I think for me the hated "4 door coupe" is the ideal shape as I can lose the estate practicality, but I quite often do have rear seat passengers. The more sporty looking saloons like the Giulia Quadrifoglio are fine but I don't love the look of typical generic saloons. The new XF, for example, looks worse than the old one to my eyes.

Personally I have not found having a bigger car a problem, at all - I did not consider the last 5 series last time around for being too big, I would not worry about that now. Is this one much bigger?
PhilD

PG wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
PhilD wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
there must be some more elegant solution - the Tesla manages it.




To not stick a fake iPad on the dash, I meant, not that theirs is particularly elegant.


You're right, Tesla's efforts looks nothing like an Ipad stuck on the dash.  


Agreed. It looks more like they replaced the centre stack with a 27 inch iMac screen turned through 90 degrees.


True in the S and X, they've turned it back around in the 3.


Martin

That looks rediculous.

I should be interested to see the new XF Estate, as it should solve the biggest problem with the design of the saloon (rear end), but having sat in the saloon, they need to start again with the interior.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
I struggle to tell one rung of the ladder from the next.

From photos I've seen, the 5's interior is almost absurdly nicer than the 3, especially as you can get decent leather with the former. It does leave you wondering what more the 7 offers, though.
TreVoR

Slightly fussy outside details aside, I think that looks great. Interior does look like a step up.
Andy C

Looking forward to seeing this , and the Jag at Geneva

I also agree that interior looks fab .  Are they bringing out a 535d ?
Martin

The sales manager called me about the launch night next week and we had a chat about future engines.   He said the 540d is coming, probably around the same time as the estate and an M550d is likely but unconfirmed.
Martin

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
I struggle to tell one rung of the ladder from the next.

From photos I've seen, the 5's interior is almost absurdly nicer than the 3, especially as you can get decent leather with the former. It does leave you wondering what more the 7 offers, though.


You can get Merino leather in the 3 series, including the dashboard, so leather quality isn't an issue, but I agree that the gap is significant and it looks very close to the 7 series which is fantastic inside.

The 7 series has tech that's not available on the 5, such as laser lights and camera based adaptive drive and thanks to a decent discount and 0% finance, the monthly cost on a PCP of a very well equipped 740d, is less than a lower spec 530d x drive.  For now.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Martin wrote:
You can get Merino leather in the 3 series, including the dashboard, so leather quality isn't an issue ...

That's new, right? Apart from the M3/4, it used to be Elephant Arse ... sorry, Dakota only.
Big Blue

I know they all look similar but a 5-er is a proper step up from a 3-er when you get in.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Chip Butty wrote:
At Geneva, Jag will be launching the XF sportbrake ...

Really? I'd thought the F Pace was doing the "estate" thing for Jaguar. Good news, though.
Giant

Martin wrote:
The sales manager called me about the launch night next week and we had a chat about future engines.   He said the 540d is coming, probably around the same time as the estate and an M550d is likely but unconfirmed.


Will you be buying?
Andy C

Martin wrote:
and an M550d is likely but unconfirmed.


I cant wait for the M550d v Panamera 4S review, although I imagine the BMW will be quite a bit cheaper
Nelson

Is that most probably the most perfect car for the real world? Very desirable. There's nothing I don't like about that
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Nelson wrote:
Is that most probably the most perfect car for the real world? Very desirable. There's nothing I don't like about that

Apart from the probable lack of an M5
Martin

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Martin wrote:
You can get Merino leather in the 3 series, including the dashboard, so leather quality isn't an issue ...

That's new, right? Apart from the M3/4, it used to be Elephant Arse ... sorry, Dakota only.


It's been an option for a couple of years and makes a big difference.

Giant wrote:
Martin wrote:
The sales manager called me about the launch night next week and we had a chat about future engines.   He said the 540d is coming, probably around the same time as the estate and an M550d is likely but unconfirmed.


Will you be buying?


I don't know, an M550d could be very tempting, but I might do something different next time.
BeN

I quite like that actually.
Chris M Wanted a V-10

^ So do I.... BTW Happy Birthday BeN !
Twelfth Monkey

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Twelfth Monkey wrote:
I struggle to tell one rung of the ladder from the next.

From photos I've seen, the 5's interior is almost absurdly nicer than the 3, especially as you can get decent leather with the former. It does leave you wondering what more the 7 offers, though.


I was only talking about the outside - have no interest in what it might look like inside!
Andy C

Down at Castle Combe yesterday for Dan G's big event (I'll do a separate thread for that), but after the event had finished, we headed for lunch and to look at some showrooms in Bristol.  At BMW , they had a new G30 outside , still with some camo on. It was locked at first , but they opened it up as we were leaving .  The interior is fantastic . Wood wouldn't  be my choice, but the layout looks great and is superbly built



Blarno

I'm still not keen on the 1990's PC joystick/sex toy gear lever. Other than that, it's just another posh car interior to me - lots of shiny tree and cow.
Giant

Am I being over cynical thinking the (unnecessary) camouflage is on it to make people look, so they realise it's a new model? Without it, many people may not even give it a second glance.
Blarno

The camo on the steering wheel badge is amusing. Anyone with half a brain cell will know it's a BMW.
Martin

Giant wrote:
Am I being over cynical thinking the (unnecessary) camouflage is on it to make people look, so they realise it's a new model? Without it, many people may not even give it a second glance.


Yes, marketing gimmick, my local dealer has one the same.  The std auto selector isn't good, but choosing the Sport Auto solves that.

Looks great inside, I'll have a proper look at the local launch on Tuesday.
Roadsterstu

I think that's the same car I followed a week or so ago. I see the ads are on TV now.
Chris M Wanted a V-10

Blarno wrote:
The camo on the steering wheel badge is amusing. Anyone with half a brain cell will know it's a BMW.

You could almost add that the camo on the outside is wasted as most people, on seeing it, wouldn't be able to tell the difference from its predecessor
Giant

Chris M Wanted a V-10 wrote:
Blarno wrote:
The camo on the steering wheel badge is amusing. Anyone with half a brain cell will know it's a BMW.

You could almost add that the camo on the outside is wasted as most people, on seeing it, wouldn't be able to tell the difference from its predecessor


That's exactly why it's there!!!
Big Blue

If I'd known this when I was younger I'd have gone out with camouflage on my face every other Friday night so all the girls that rejected me previously came flooding over....
boc70

Big Blue wrote:
If I'd known this when I was younger I'd have gone out with camouflage on my face every other Friday night so all the girls that rejected me previously came flooding over....


Isn't that what New Romantics did?
Sav

I preferred the rear of the F11, it looked sleeker. The F11 is the best-looking 5-Series Touring for me.

I question the point of making the M550d. With legislators beating up on diesel across the world, is there a market for it, because it was very niche in the first place? In a few years time where will you be able to drive it without some absurd charges, particularly in Europe's city centres?

In comparison, the M550i is very tempting. It sounds great.

Good to see BMW offering some decent blue's again which aren't expensive Individual colours. This started with the F10 later in its life. Cue to BMW, continue this please! Don't take a step backwards and just offer Estoril....
Martin

I popped into the launch event in my way home yesterday, it was like I was arriving at a 520d convention as the car park was full of them, plus one 530d and an A6 and XF estate.    Leaving aside the salesmans presentations (mix of facts and nonsense) and some of the attendees behaviour, which restricted things somewhat, it was interesting to see the car.

To cut to the chase, after good look around, I didn't leave thinking I wanted to change my car, which on balance I think is a good thing!

Slight caveat that I've not driven one yet, which could sway me I suppose..   Don't get me wrong, it's a very nice car indeed, but it doesn't feel like a significant step up from the F10/F11, nothing like there was moving from the E60.  I like the centre console which is more angled towards the driver and some of the details are really nice, but I don't like the screen and it feels smaller inside (it isn't), which I think was down to the way the dash slopes on the passenger side plus the very dark interiors.  A different interior colour and/or a sunroof would probably have made a big difference, as would comfort seats and nappa leather.   They had a 7 series in the showroom, which was a mistake unless they thought they might get someone to upgrade, as the differences inside are much greater than the pictures suggest.  

Some of the tech is pretty impressive, for example the voodoo cruise doesn't just work in stop/start traffic, it uses the camera based speed limit feature to adjust the speed (you can set a +/- variance).  It also uses the speed limit in addition to GPS data to control the gearbox.   The voodoo lights are exactly the same as they are on mine, no laser option like there is on the 7.

So, a really nice car and would probably get my money if I was swapping on a like for like basis, but I'd like to see one in a better spec and try one with the right chassis and engine options.
Big Blue

Your visit aligns with my thoughts on the pictures: it's not different enough to the F11. As you say, there was a big change (up) to the F10/11 and to be fair there was a big change from the E39 to the E60. Perhaps interiors have plateaued for the time being?

I remain less than keen on those front side air intakes, something which I felt wrecked the 1-series M-sport, and the gigantic kidney grille looks just shite. Far better to have a wide intake as covered by the grille area with smaller kidneys in the centre. Is that a bit retro?
Bob Sacamano

I tend to agree with your summation - there's nothing I've seen that would tempt me out of a current F10, or even persuade me to wait for a new model as opposed to a heavily discounted run out model.
Martin

I think the front bumper and grille look much better than they do in the pictures, possibly because of the angle you look at them vs (a lower) camera angle?

The technology is probably the biggest difference, but the majority is optional and I'm not interested enough to pay for it.  To get the spec that I'd want on a 530d,the list price would increase to £63-64k, so closer to £70k on a 540d Touring (535d was £60k) and that's excluding the self park/360 camera, voodoo cruise and a number of other tech options.   With the same deposit, the 530d I specced comes out at £200 a month more than I pay now.

The service pack has been downgraded as well, it's been reduced from £475 to £399, but only covers you for 3 years / 36k miles (was 5/50k), so you're only getting one service rather than two.
Bob Sacamano

Does anyone use these self parking functions, other than in the first few days when you're showing off to friends? Are they practical in real life or just too slow when trying to quickly reverse back into a space in a busy highstreet?
Martin

I strongly suspect the latter, unless you've got a garage that will fit the car in but won't leave you enough room to open the door.   The new surround view is excellent, but it's bundled with the self parking, remote parking is £400 on top so the full parking/surround view option costs £1,500.

The Holden Commodore has self parking, both parallel and vertical. I used it once to see what it was like then didn't bother again as although it was very good, it did take too long.
gonnabuildabuggy

Bob Sacamano wrote:
I tend to agree with your summation - there's nothing I've seen that would tempt me out of a current F10, or even persuade me to wait for a new model as opposed to a heavily discounted run out model.


There's the thing. Sometime a model isn't a big enough step up to warrant a change.

when I bought the X5, the step up from the E53 to the E70 in terms of tech and "datedness" felt pretty massive. When I look at the newer model still then it didn't really feel that big a shift so not worth considering.

The F10/F11 will be worth seeking out in the right spec over the extra expense of the new model.
PhilD

Isn't the BMW way to do evolution, revolution, evolution, revolution, etc, etc.

Though they often stretch the meaning of revolution.
Twelfth Monkey

Surely BMW's only styling revolution was under Bangle?
Bob Sacamano

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Surely BMW's only styling revolution was under Bangle?


I don't think you Audi boys can be lobbing styling bricks in BMW's direction...

Twelfth Monkey

I didn't say they were any different!  It was just an observation, rather than a brick.  Seems to me that uglification is about all the prestige makes have done in the way of innovation in quite a while.
gonnabuildabuggy

Twelfth Monkey wrote:
Surely BMW's only styling revolution was under Bangle?


It did used to be Revolution (E23), Evolution (E30), Revolution (E36), Evolution (E46) but from then on it's gone a bit patchy.

No idea what E90 was supposed to be?

For 5 series Revolution (E12), Evolution (E28), Revolution (E34), Evolution (E39), Revolution (indeed!) E60, then same what was the F10? What is the G30?

Meanwhile Audi have just one design for A4/A6/A8 that comes in different sizes.

Perhaps in truth, Tech, not shape is the main evolution nowadays.
Big Blue

The Gorilla has the parking thing (in the car, not out). Tried it once. Never again: alloy-scrape-stress-levels are too high and then it ended up 2 kms from the kerb anyway!
Nice Guy Eddie

Sat in the new 5 series yesterday and although the leather dash and architecture looked good the switchgear quality was nothing other than appalling. My wife's 3 series is far superior. The bean counters seem to have got involved on this model.

~Martin have you sat in one? No way are all the controls as nice as the current model.
Martin

Nice Guy Eddie wrote:
Sat in the new 5 series yesterday and although the leather dash and architecture looked good the switchgear quality was nothing other than appalling. My wife's 3 series is far superior. The bean counters seem to have got involved on this model.

~Martin have you sat in one? No way are all the controls as nice as the current model.


Only briefly, I didn't have much time to check it out properly but it felt like a step backwards in a number of areas and the leather dash is vinyl.  Quite good in a way, as I feel no desire to change mine.
Chris M Wanted a V-10

^ especially as the VED/road fund tax willl be somewhat more expensive on a new 5 in your spec after the end of this month.

BTW do you have a water temperature gauge in the 5? The videos I have seen of the X3 show an mpg meter instead at the base of the speedo or tacho, but as it's a digital display maybe it can be altered? The other small gauge appears to be the fuel level which cannot be altered for something else
Martin

Chris M Wanted a V-10 wrote:
^ especially as the VED/road fund tax willl be somewhat more expensive on a new 5 in your spec after the end of this month.

BTW do you have a water temperature gauge in the 5? The videos I have seen of the X3 show an mpg meter instead at the base of the speedo or tacho, but as it's a digital display maybe it can be altered? The other small gauge appears to be the fuel level which cannot be altered for something else


The road tax doesn't make a difference, it's a drop in the ocean compared to depreciation and fuel costs.

The current X3 has the partial black panel display from the pre-LCI 5 Series (similar to full black panel in the 1/2/3 Series.....) and it has an oil temperature gauge on far right hand side.  The fuel gauge is the same size, but on the far left.
Roadsterstu

Chris M Wanted a V-10 wrote:
^ especially as the VED/road fund tax willl be somewhat more expensive on a new 5 in your spec after the end of this month.

BTW do you have a water temperature gauge in the 5? The videos I have seen of the X3 show an mpg meter instead at the base of the speedo or tacho, but as it's a digital display maybe it can be altered? The other small gauge appears to be the fuel level which cannot be altered for something else


Water temp guages seem to have fallen out of favour. There isn't one in the V60. Most that do have them are simply a guage that sits at one point until it's too hot, at which point it pings up to the top. So you might as well just have a light. Plus, cars don't overheat like they used to.
Chris M Wanted a V-10

It's not overheating that worries me, it's knowing when the engine is up to temperature and ready for a decent caning if required.
Dr. Hfuhruhurr

Interesting comments about the interior, as that was the outstanding thing in the previous model. If only they'd done an M5 Touring ...
Big Blue

Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote:
Interesting comments about the interior, as that was the outstanding thing in the previous model. If only they'd done an M5 Touring ...


There is always the B5 BiTurbo Touring. I think I've seen one recently.....
Martin

Chris M Wanted a V-10 wrote:
It's not overheating that worries me, it's knowing when the engine is up to temperature and ready for a decent caning if required.


Isn't it more important that the oil is up to temperature before you 'cane' it?
Chris M Wanted a V-10

Martin wrote:

Isn't it more important that the oil is up to temperature before you 'cane' it?

I thought that engine oil heated up faster than water?

I have read on at least one occasion that an oil temperature gauge is only necessary if the engine designers got their sums wrong
Boxer6

Chris M Wanted a V-10 wrote:
Martin wrote:

Isn't it more important that the oil is up to temperature before you 'cane' it?

I thought that engine oil heated up faster than water?

I have read on at least one occasion that an oil temperature gauge is only necessary if the engine designers got their sums wrong


Any comparison I've ever seen shows oil heats up waaay slower than water; one I saw on a TT Legacy showed the water up to temp where the oil temp needle had barely moved! Scary.
Martin

Chris M Wanted a V-10 wrote:
Martin wrote:

Isn't it more important that the oil is up to temperature before you 'cane' it?

I thought that engine oil heated up faster than water?

I have read on at least one occasion that an oil temperature gauge is only necessary if the engine designers got their sums wrong


That's not my understanding at all, getting the oil up to the right temperature is much more important than the water, as it's not lubricating the engine properly unlike its warm.  Unless you're just concerned about the heater blowing warm air.
JohnC

Martin and Boxer6 are correct. The oil heats up much slower than the water and it is oil temperature which is important when considering damage to the engine.

Often ignored is the gearbox oil which heats up even more slowly than the engine oil.

Most cars will take at least 5 miles to get properly up to temperature for engine oil. Diesels also take longer than petrols to warm up because they are more thermally efficient and don't waste as much energy heating other things up.
Big Blue

Wow a car forum talking about oil.

Yes, the oil needs to be at the right temperature to achieve its stated viscosity and protect your engine properly. It's why M-cars have a rev range light system on the rev counter until the oil is warm enough. The colder the "water" (coolant) the better: it's there to keep the engine cool and the oil at the right temperature.
PhilD

Martin wrote:
 Unless you're just concerned about the heater blowing warm air.


*backs slowly away whistling to himself*
Tim

I reckon that the oil takes a minimum of 4 times as long to heat up - I've got oil temp gauges on the M5 and 370 and had one on the Alfa too.

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