DarthBalls
|
Bit of a handful in the wet?...We had a lot of rain up here yesterday and the back end of our MX5 let go coming off a roundabout yesterday. I managed to correct it at the same time as the DSC kicked in which made for a weird sensation through the wheel and seat.
The thing is, despite what many people have said about MX5s (personally or in mags), this is the first time I've had unintentional oversteer in just under 2 years with this car! Plenty of times intentionally, though. Autocar's review went on about the MX5 power oversteering in the wet when joining motorways. My own experience has been that you'd have to be either trying to do that intentionally or have no mechanical sympathy at all when driving.
I don't get why people go on about cars like the MX5, S2000, etc being a real handful in the wet - maybe they just don't alter how they drive in different conditions?
I've found FWD cars that plough straight on at corners in the wet much scarier to drive and also encounter them coming the other way frighteningly often.
|
Jasper
|
Re: Bit of a handful in the wet?... | DarthBalls wrote: |
I don't get why people go on about cars like the MX5, S2000, etc being a real handful in the wet - maybe they just don't alter how they drive in different conditions?
I've found FWD cars that plough straight on at corners in the wet much scarier to drive and also encounter them coming the other way frighteningly often. |
I guess the difference is at the point that traction is lost and you jump off the throttle, a FWD would, probably, tuck in and a RWD car would start spinning harder.
I know that the majority of the time I'd rather be in a FWD car as I don't have the concentration/reactions/finesse/skill to always be able to control a RWD car.
|
SpecB
|
The point being to progressively back off the throttle in an oversteer situation and not "jump" off it.
I never found my dad's XJ-S anything but totally predictable in the wet. Yes, it was a heavy car but it had about 350 bhp or so with no traction control.
What I don't like about FWD is that if you back off the throttle in an understeer situation you can get snap oversteer which is incredibly difficult to correct as Blarno's girly parking damage attests to (his words).
|
Big TC
|
I've only ever had unintentional oversteer in a fwd car once - a P-reg Mazda 626, on a wet roundabout, when the drop-link in the rear suspension that was under load gave way..... before I could even say the 'shhhh' of shhhiiit', I was facing the other way. Luckily, there were no other vehicles within sight of my misdemeanor.
On the other hand, I've had unintentional oversteer in rwd cars on about 4 or 5 times, which is not a lot considering the first several tens of thousands of miles in my motoring experience were spent in dodgy old rwd munters...
Which is nowhere near as often as I had intentional oversteer in my old mk2 Cortina, for instance, which had well-knackered rear springs. Honed my skills for banger racing on a dirt track, I can tell you!
|
GonnaBreakABuggy
|
Had this in my mothers when the rear toe-in wasn't set properly - she'd whacked a kerb and knocked the adjusters out slightly and never noticed, then it got a little twitchy in the wet until I found the problem!
|
JohnC
|
I agree Darth, the two MX5's my wife had were never a problem in the wet unless you were daft. Even when the back did step out it was very progressive and easy to correct.
|
DradusContact
|
I took a corner too fast once in my Ka. I turned the wheel but not alot happened, and in my inexperience just hit the brake. It didnt have ABS. Just kept going straight and left the road. There was amazingly little damage though, a 50p sized chunk had gone from the alloy, and the tracking was a little out, but that was it. I got out thinking i had bent the axle or soemthing but it was fine.
|
Jasper
|
| SpecB wrote: | The point being to progressively back off the throttle in an oversteer situation and not "jump" off it.
|
Sorry. I meant Joe public, not handy wheelsmen like us (you lot). Obviously we'd give it a 'dab of oppo' and be away up the road at a healthy rate.
My Puma liked to bring the rear into play quite a lot but was so progressive that it was never a problem.
Does make me think however.
*Jumps to a new thread*
|
DaveGibson
|
| DradusContact wrote: | | I took a corner too fast once in my Ka. I turned the wheel but not alot happened, and in my inexperience just hit the brake. It didnt have ABS. .......... |
ABS would have had no effect in those circumstances. It's there to prevent you from locking the wheels when you brake. You weren't braking when you lost traction.
|
DradusContact
|
| DaveGibson wrote: | | ABS would have had no effect in those circumstances. It's there to prevent you from locking the wheels when you brake. You weren't braking when you lost traction. |
Well, when i hit the brake the wheels just locked, so they were providing minimal braking. Wouldnt of ABS helped me a bit? So stupid when i look back!
|
Apex clipper
|
What is 'Understeer'? 
|
DaveGibson
|
DC, in your earlier post you implied that you lost control going round a bend before you braked, so your front wheels must have been sliding at that time. If you had not already been sliding, but were at the limit of grip, braking could have made the situation worse and caused a skid, because you would then have been demanding even more from the tyres, which were already at the limit. ABS, being designed to stop the wheels from locking, should leave the tyres with some grip which the driver can then use to steer but if you are already skidding there's no reserve of grip left.
|
DradusContact
|
I was basically going too fast, as i turned the wheel nothing happened, so then i braked.
|
GonnaBreakABuggy
|
| Apex clipper wrote: | | What is 'Understeer'? |
Something you get when you buy a Ford instead of a decent french hatch 
|
Dr. Hfuhruhurr
|
| GonnaBreakABuggy wrote: | | ... a decent french hatch ... |
Does not compute ...
|
GonnaBreakABuggy
|
Bastard
Where's my glove and duelling pistols gone?
|
"him"
|
He is only jealous as they put the engine in the wrong place in his car... 
|
Dr. Hfuhruhurr
|
| "him" wrote: | | He is only jealous as they put the engine in the wrong place in his car... |
Are you saying it should have been front-wheel drive as well?
|
"him"
|
Now that would be interesting in the wet!
|
Matt
|
Does that mean they'd have built it for 40 years looking like this?
|
GonnaBreakABuggy
|
Actually, that would be better aerodynamically...
|
Apex clipper
|
| Dr. Hfuhruhurr wrote: | | GonnaBreakABuggy wrote: | | ... a decent french hatch ... |
Does not compute ... |
Simon has logged on at 22.30 02/09/09.
|
SpecB
|
| Jasper wrote: | | SpecB wrote: | The point being to progressively back off the throttle in an oversteer situation and not "jump" off it.
|
Sorry. I meant Joe public, not handy wheelsmen like us (you lot). Obviously we'd give it a 'dab of oppo' and be away up the road at a healthy rate.
My Puma liked to bring the rear into play quite a lot but was so progressive that it was never a problem.
Does make me think however.
*Jumps to a new thread* |
I've only ever had the Legacy in an oversteer situation once but the last thing on my mind was to jump off the throttle. In fact progressive backing off seemed to settle it although some people seem to think burying the throttle helps in this regard.
It may seem pretentious but if a car communicates to its driver on what to do then it follows that that is the best thing to do. I appreciate not all people are aware of this.
|
GonnaBreakABuggy
|
Burying the throttle car be worse if it spins the inside wheel up - progressive application as you did is often more successful if you got some power.
The fact that the car communicates that to you and that you noticed it instinctively is what - in my opinion - handling is all about, consistant chassis feedback even beyond the limits.
|
SpecB
|
| GonnaBreakABuggy wrote: | Burying the throttle car be worse if it spins the inside wheel up - progressive application as you did is often more successful if you got some power.
The fact that the car communicates that to you and that you noticed it instinctively is what - in my opinion - handling is all about, consistant chassis feedback even beyond the limits. |
In my mind, burying the throttle would have been bad as it would have thrown power to the rear and the front and resulted in four wheel drift which would have been fun on a track would not have been that much fun with traffic approaching.
|
ALF
|
Our Focus and Puma are probably the only cars I've driven much in the last 10 years where I have not had the odd bout of unintentional oversteer. But when I say "unintentional", I mean I know I was pushing hard (usually on corner entry, carrying too much trail braking) and was ready. It used to put the wind up me until I'd had my first full year's track experience - since then I am comfortable with it, though the odd patch of ice or diesel still has me reaching for the andrex on occasion (not often on ice, as I drive like a girl on it following an interest "exit hedge left" incident when 17).
I would say that any modern car on legal tyres will be able to stay entirely stable in most wet conditions if driven sensibly. Standing water can be another story, if not immediately obvious, I have to say I really did not enjoy a drive yesterday in hideous rain, what with the amount of standing water about the place.
Basically, your initial assumption is correct - if people gave wet conditions sufficient respect, and knew the basics of car control, they would not get into trouble, even in something notorious and lacking ESP like an S2000. However, a lot of people drive like apes regardless of conditions, and I suspect very few really know how to keep things smooth and safe by, for example, not applying power except when winding off lock - especially with RWD.
|
woof woof
|
Front wheel drive cars can be incredibly scary, IMHO. Coming from RWD I find that they do tend to understeer and it's difficult for me
to take the same line as I would in RWD car and stay in lane. Other people may be caught out by RWD, you pays your money and you
makes your choice.
The answer is, I suppose, to play to the strengths of each format and the handling characteristics but I suppose also that so much is
down to tyres and set up.
The handling of my current MX5 is slightly worse in the wet than it was on it's last tyres but vastly better on snow and ice. As the location
of the engine, the weight distribution, suspension and driven wheels are all the same then tyres are it. The performance of my Boxster
was equally transformed by tyres and I assume that if I'd kept my Elise it's handling, atrocious in the wet, and not helped by the brakes
being completely ineffective when wet, would have been equally transformed by new tyres.
|
Matt
|
I attempted to get the Astra's back-end mobile earlier, but used the brake mid-corner before it got out of hand. It feels very light back there, probably because for a coupe, it has a rather large boot.
I also went over a deceptive hump-back that had the car go to the end of its travel and come down quite sharply, but the car seemed to handle that better than it does potholes!
I just hope I'm not getting overly brave like I was once before, as I've steered clear of acting a twat since my crash.
|
TimR
|
I had a scary trip last Saturday in the Fiat due to a combination of it's generally shit front tyres and a fully loaded car.
Since all the extra weight was towards the rear it made the poor grip even worse to the extent that small areas of standing water were enough to induce wheelspin and a move off line at 50 in 5th.
The bit of A9 down into Inverness was particularly bad - like a river and downhill.
Sometimes the car seemed to be floating.
Strangely it was much better coming home yesterday despite it actually appearing wetter but new tyres are on the agenda for sometime within the next couple of weeks.
|
Matt
|
Ah the scenery along the A9 from Inverness to Dornoch makes me want to go back so much. I might be going to Inverness in the middle of November to visit my mate in Thurso, but I'm going to have to get the bus again.
What's the name of the town with the murals on the edges of the buildings? It escapes me. Does it begin with an 'M'?
|
TimR
|
| Matt wrote: | | Ah the scenery along the A9 from Inverness to Dornoch makes me want to go back so much. I might be going to Inverness in the middle of November to visit my mate in Thurso, but I'm going to have to get the bus again. |
You should try to get across to the West coast above Ullapool for the best scenery.
| Matt wrote: |
What's the name of the town with the murals on the edges of the buildings? It escapes me. Does it begin with an 'M'? |
Belfast?
|
Big TC
|
Matt, don't forget to stop off in Glasgow and try to meet some of the 'Scottish contingent'.
|
Matt
|
Sadly it'll be a straight flight from Brizzle to Inverness, as it's all rather short notice and I'll be using the Tuesday and Wednesday of my week off to see Muse in Birmingham.
It's likely I'll tour Scotland next year when I'm 25 and can hire a car for the week without being ripped off with under-25 surcharges.
|
Frank Bullitt
|
My Pug 205 could be made to step the back out with a little effort; lift-off mid-corner and the back would start to move.
Still, gave it a Dab of Oppo, spanked the bitch and I was away...
It was incredibly easy to control, but that's probably because it was a 1.4GR rather than a 1.9GTI.
|
Blarno
|
The GTi would do lift-off oversteer, too. Only you'd be travelling a bit faster at the time. It's twitchy nature made it immense fun in the snow!
|
