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Tim

Americans & Guns

I really wonder if they're from the same planet as us.

After several dreadful shootings in, well, lots of years they still want everyone to be able to buy guns easily.

Donald Trump wanted an immediate ban on muslims entering the country last week, despite the Orlando shooter being a born & bred American.

How does he account for the young white guy that murdered 12 or 13 people at a Batman screening a while back or the young white guy that shot a load of people at a church last year?

Perhaps he should call for a ban on white immigrant stock (although he'd have to deport himself to the Isle of Lewis I think and I'm not sure they'd want him).

Anyway after their vote earlier in the week the US Senate decided - on party lines - that it's fine to sell a gun to somebody on a terrorist watchlist  

They're stupid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36563337
gooner

Or the young white British guy from Dorking who tried to shoot him yesterday!
Big Blue

They are indeed not like us. They have no understanding of the concept that the reason our general everyday police officers go about unarmed because our general everyday criminals have fairly limited access to firearms.

Their problem is in having a rigid constitution which was laid out over 2 centuries ago when defending yourself and family against marauding bandits meant you might reasonably involve bearing arms. To move any aspect of this constitution into the 21st century takes generations so maybe they're just hoping the masses all have shot each other before their oil runs out.
Michael

Big Blue wrote:
They are indeed not like us. They have no understanding of the concept that the reason our general everyday police officers go about unarmed because our general everyday criminals have fairly limited access to firearms.


Police here do tend to wear stab proof vests as we have a major problem with knife crime.
Big Blue

Michael wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
They are indeed not like us. They have no understanding of the concept that the reason our general everyday police officers go about unarmed because our general everyday criminals have fairly limited access to firearms.


Police here do tend to wear stab proof vests as we have a major problem with knife crime.


We clearly need to have laws on pre-cut food and a ban on all knife sales.
Michael

It's the only way. Soup not hate.
Twelfth Monkey

Re the OP.  It reminds me of how angry I felt the first time I watched Bowling for Columbine, and how, with every subsequent schoolyard shooting and other gun-related idiocy, I've become less angry and more saddened and disillusioned by the American political system.  Only an idiot would not favour controlling weapons of small-scale mass destruction.  Or a house full of them.
Grampa

Re: Americans & Guns

Tim wrote:
I really wonder if they're from the same planet as us.

After several dreadful shootings in, well, lots of years they still want everyone to be able to buy guns easily.

Donald Trump wanted an immediate ban on muslims entering the country last week, despite the Orlando shooter being a born & bred American.

How does he account for the young white guy that murdered 12 or 13 people at a Batman screening a while back or the young white guy that shot a load of people at a church last year?

Perhaps he should call for a ban on white immigrant stock (although he'd have to deport himself to the Isle of Lewis I think and I'm not sure they'd want him).

Anyway after their vote earlier in the week the US Senate decided - on party lines - that it's fine to sell a gun to somebody on a terrorist watchlist  

They're stupid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36563337


I accept the argument that as far as guns are concerned, in the US the genie is out of the bottle and it's far to late to put him back in and get them to get rid of all their guns - yet one of their favourite arguments is, "The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a  gun is a good guy with a gun" - so surely it then follows that you should take steps to ensure that only 'good guys' can get the guns?

I'm afraid logic + guns + Americans are never going to sit well together - add a bigoted idiot like Trump into the mix and you're never even going to get a sensible thought on the subject let alone sensible action.
Grampa

Re: Americans & Guns

Tim wrote:
I really wonder if they're from the same planet as us.

After several dreadful shootings in, well, lots of years they still want everyone to be able to buy guns easily.

Donald Trump wanted an immediate ban on muslims entering the country last week, despite the Orlando shooter being a born & bred American.

How does he account for the young white guy that murdered 12 or 13 people at a Batman screening a while back or the young white guy that shot a load of people at a church last year?

Perhaps he should call for a ban on white immigrant stock (although he'd have to deport himself to the Isle of Lewis I think and I'm not sure they'd want him).

Anyway after their vote earlier in the week the US Senate decided - on party lines - that it's fine to sell a gun to somebody on a terrorist watchlist  

They're stupid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36563337


I accept the argument that as far as guns are concerned, in the US the genie is out of the bottle and it's far to late to put him back in and get them to get rid of all their guns - yet one of their favourite arguments is, "The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a  gun is a good guy with a gun" - so surely it then follows that you should take steps to ensure that only 'good guys' can get the guns?

I'm afraid logic + guns + Americans are never going to sit well together - add a bigoted idiot like Trump into the mix and you're never even going to get a sensible thought on the subject let alone sensible action.
Michael

The thing doing the rounds on social media recently of the mother who caught her daughter stood on the toilet seat really moved me probably because I could relate to it although our lock down drill in Minneapolis was due to tornados.
Humphrey The Pug

Jim Jeffries and gun control:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0
Roadsterstu

Michael wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
They are indeed not like us. They have no understanding of the concept that the reason our general everyday police officers go about unarmed because our general everyday criminals have fairly limited access to firearms.


Police here do tend to wear stab proof vests as we have a major problem with knife crime.


Untrue. We have them for our protection, naturally, from knives and firearms (to a degree) but I would disagree it's because we have "a major problem with knife crime" and more for general officer protection. I suppose you have to define what is a major problem, but I'd argue knife carrying here is barely different to the US or many other countries. It's a problem in certain areas and social groups, naturally, but to say "major problem" is a little alarmist. Maybe. Perhaps it depends on your viewpoint.

As for Americans and guns, you simply need to search YouTube for Jim Jeffries and gun control. Hits the nail right on the head. It's NSFW by the way!

It is frankly startling that the response to a shooting in a school is not one of limiting access to firearms but to arm teachers with guns.
Roadsterstu

Michael wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
They are indeed not like us. They have no understanding of the concept that the reason our general everyday police officers go about unarmed because our general everyday criminals have fairly limited access to firearms.


Police here do tend to wear stab proof vests as we have a major problem with knife crime.


Oh and most US cops wear stab/bullet proof vests too. Only difference is they can fire back.
Giant

From the outside, It's utterly baffling, depressing and downright upsetting how rigidly they cling to their right to bear firearms. You'd think moves to at least restrict rapid fire, large magazine weapons would seem reasonable even to the most ardent NRA member.

https://youtu.be/0rR9IaXH1M0 'It's called an AMENDMENT you idiots!'
Roadsterstu

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
Jim Jeffries and gun control:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0


That's the one. I missed your post. Trying to multitask.
Humphrey The Pug

Can you imagine how many more people would have died in the LBGT club shooting from a few weeks ago if all of the revellers were armed; shooting in the dark and who do they shoot at; oh yeahh the guy with a gun, errr each other then.
Roadsterstu

Giant wrote:
From the outside, It's utterly baffling, depressing and downright upsetting how rigidly they cling to their right to bear firearms. You'd think moves to at least restrict rapid fire, large magazine weapons would seem reasonable even to the most ardent NRA member.

https://youtu.be/0rR9IaXH1M0


Maybe get rid of the big guns...?  
Giant

Humphrey The Pug wrote:
Jim Jeffries and gun control:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0


Sorry, missed your post with the same link!

...And stus! Great minds!
Alf McQueef

The yanks are bonkers on guns - well a majority of them are anyway, there are a lot of very sensible ones out there too, but they get dwarfed by the rednecks.

I was a very keen shooter when I was young - shot for my school, captained my university shooting club, held the firearms certificate with over 50 guns on it, and so on, on top of my military shooting, where I always ran my unit's shooting team. I felt the post-Dunblane laws in the UK were OTT, some of the suggestions around keeping guns in clubs not at home seemed very sensible to me, and the laws effectively prevented whole categories of Olympic shooting taking place in the UK.

And that's what I find bizarre - many Western countries have gone super-careful on guns, and the US remains firmly on a totally different trajectory. I get that people want to shoot and hunt, but they should not be able to buy high-capacity military style weapons for that. If they were using bolt action  single shot rifles for hunting, not AR-15's, they would be more effective for that role, and while shootings may still take place the numbers killed would be far less. And of course they absolutely need far more controls on guns, and controls on buying second hand (at the moment you can sell to anyone as a private gun owner).

20,000 people die every year in the US by gun. A lot is suicides, but that number dwarfs the big shootings we hear about here. 20,000 - that's a massive number, equivalent to 5 times the total of allied deaths on D-Day. If they can't collectively see the need to reduce access to weapons, especially military-grade ones, they are collectively insane.
Michael

Roadsterstu wrote:
Michael wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
They are indeed not like us. They have no understanding of the concept that the reason our general everyday police officers go about unarmed because our general everyday criminals have fairly limited access to firearms.


Police here do tend to wear stab proof vests as we have a major problem with knife crime.


Oh and most US cops wear stab/bullet proof vests too. Only difference is they can fire back.


2011 Home office vs FBI data you're 1.27x more likely to be stabbed in the UK than US. In some sectors of society a lot of people seem to think it's ok to carry a knife. Therefore we have a major problem with knife crime.
DetmoldDick

Canada has more guns per head than America but they do not have the same problem . Guns don't kill people, people do.
Giant

DetmoldDick wrote:
Canada has more guns per head than America but they do not have the same problem . Guns don't kill people, rappers do.


FYP for obscure novelty Welsh rap reference.
PG

DetmoldDick wrote:
Canada has more guns per head than America but they do not have the same problem . Guns don't kill people, people do.


Agreed. Switzerland has a huge gun level too and low murder rate. And in the UK, for example, before WW1 there were practically no restrictions of firearm ownership and no "gun problem". So my view for the US, is it as much cultural as guns themselves. The US has never really moved on from the wild west when a lot of people carried a gun.
Bob Sacamano

PG wrote:
DetmoldDick wrote:
Canada has more guns per head than America but they do not have the same problem . Guns don't kill people, people do.


Agreed. Switzerland has a huge gun level too and low murder rate. .


They own a lot of guns but since 2007 and some high profile gun murders, all ammunition must be stored in a central armoury.
Roadsterstu

Michael wrote:
Roadsterstu wrote:
Michael wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
They are indeed not like us. They have no understanding of the concept that the reason our general everyday police officers go about unarmed because our general everyday criminals have fairly limited access to firearms.


Police here do tend to wear stab proof vests as we have a major problem with knife crime.


Oh and most US cops wear stab/bullet proof vests too. Only difference is they can fire back.


2011 Home office vs FBI data you're 1.27x more likely to be stabbed in the UK than US. In some sectors of society a lot of people seem to think it's ok to carry a knife. Therefore we have a major problem with knife crime.


I think from such variable and perhaps not exactly like for like data, coupled with a general assertion that a lot of people feel it is OK to carry a knife, the issue is one of personal perception. However, I see your point and I don't disagree that some areas have an issue with knives and that some groups of people do feel the need to carry a knife.
JohnC

Changing the subject slightly to UK Policing, one of the reasons you can approach a Police Officer in the UK and maybe even have a bit of banter is because they are not armed. In countries where the Police are armed, they have to keep a certain distance from people for fear of someone trying to grab the gun. It is also the reason the likes of the French Police get stuck in and hit people with batons even when they are doing nothing but trying to get away from the trouble: that in itself does nothing to make people feel they can trust or even respect the Police.

As for the US, the complete refusal to consider sensible gun control demonstrates madness by some in positions of power. However like the abolition of slavery, the introduction of equal rights for women, the acceptance of LBGT and even the clamp down on drink driving I sincerely hope we are seeing the beginning of a movement which will eventually gain sufficient momentum that it won't be able to be ignored.
Twelfth Monkey

DetmoldDick wrote:
Canada has more guns per head than America but they do not have the same problem . Guns don't kill people, people do.


A similar argument to that about alcohol.  Take two people with similar degrees of access.  One may drink sensibly, the other be in a perpetual stupor.  You have to limit access (ideally remove it) in the case of the drunk.  

These are all points that Bowling for Columbine addresses, and I'd recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it.
PhilD

Michael wrote:
Roadsterstu wrote:
Michael wrote:
Big Blue wrote:
They are indeed not like us. They have no understanding of the concept that the reason our general everyday police officers go about unarmed because our general everyday criminals have fairly limited access to firearms.


Police here do tend to wear stab proof vests as we have a major problem with knife crime.


Oh and most US cops wear stab/bullet proof vests too. Only difference is they can fire back.


2011 Home office vs FBI data you're 1.27x more likely to be stabbed in the UK than US. In some sectors of society a lot of people seem to think it's ok to carry a knife. Therefore we have a major problem with knife crime.


Why "therefore"? Do we have a major problem? The comparison to US doesn't tell us we do (they are obviously too busy shooting each other...).
Twelfth Monkey

I don't know whether we do or don't.  I'd guess you'd need a comparison against other first world nations, rather than just the US of Arms.
PhilD

Why do Americans want guns so badly? Do they think The Walking Dead is a documentary?
Blarno

You never see fat zombies.
PhilD

Blarno wrote:
You never see fat zombies.



Blarno

Ah, but he was a newly rendered zombie. Within a day or so he'd be slim.

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