DradusContact
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Afganistan - what are we doing there?After reading the paper today it seems large parts of the police force we are traning are now corrupt, the latest result being 5 soldiers killed while having their dinner.
If thats the case i cant see what were going to achieve.
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Mark
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Re: Afganistan - what are we doing there? | DradusContact wrote: | | i cant see what we were ever going to achieve. |
Fixed.
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DradusContact
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The whole thing seems self-defeating to me. The reason theyre attacking us is they want us out of the country. If we comply, then that would surely stop?
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Bob Sacramento
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| DradusContact wrote: | | The whole thing seems self-defeating to me. The reason theyre attacking us is they want us out of the country. If we comply, then that would surely stop? |
Didn't they attack us before we were in Afghanistan? Were not terrorists being trained there before 9/11?
There is a hardcore of Islamic fundamentalists who want to see their brand of Islam pushed west through Turkey and into Europe, across North Africa, east into Russia and further afield. The moderates seem powerless/unwilling to voice their opposition to this so what do we do?
Whilst I believe the invasion of Iraq was a mistake I am in two minds about Afghanistan. However, it does appear we haven't learned from history and trying to tackle the Taliban in an area the size of Hemland, with less than 2500 combat troops seems like a recipe for disaster.
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scamper
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I'm along the same lines as Bob.
Just hope the big offensive recently pays dividends, considering our losses.
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DetmoldDick
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I work in a military instalation and one of the guys killed (the RSM) was a good buddy of one of the military permanent staff here.
This attack has hit morale harder, it seems, than any previous attack. The thing is that our guys cannot trust anyone any more.
I hope that we can recover from this kidney punch and take the fight back to the Taliban. The problem is we are not allowed to (be seen to) fight dirty. We are not even allowed to stop captured suspect Taliban from having a comfortable nights kip FFS.
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TimR
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| DradusContact wrote: | | The whole thing seems self-defeating to me. The reason theyre attacking us is they want us out of the country. If we comply, then that would surely stop? |
A few of them want us out of their country but what about, for example, all the women who, under the Taliban, are refused an education?
I expect that plenty of the fighters will be non-Afghanistanees (?) who simply want to fight the West.
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Mark
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| TimR wrote: | | DradusContact wrote: | | The whole thing seems self-defeating to me. The reason theyre attacking us is they want us out of the country. If we comply, then that would surely stop? |
A few of them want us out of their country but what about, for example, all the women who, under the Taliban, are refused an education?
I expect that plenty of the fighters will be non-Afghanistanees (?) who simply want to fight the West. |
True - but it’s fanaticism. Kill one fanatic and another one will simply step into his/her place. Also, if the numbers get low, more can simply be (and are) imported. There are millions of them ready to fight for the ‘cause’.
I do wonder why we very rarely hear about any of our (or allied) everyday successes in Afghanistan, either?
I really do feel for our men & women serving out there but I do believe it is fruitless.
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DradusContact
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| Mark wrote: | | I really do feel for our men & women serving out there but I do believe it is fruitless. |
+1
I think the sad thing is theyre dying in vain.
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Bob Sacramento
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If Afghanistan falls to the Taliban, Pakistan will follow. A nuclear armed Taliban - that'll keep us all on our toes!
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scamper
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| Mark wrote: |
I really do feel for our men & women serving out there |
We had the Marines and Rifles (who have suffered heavy casulties this year) at Kingsholm on tuesday for Gloucester v Australia. Apparently the collection buckets raised an impressive £8000 for Help for Heroes. These troops looked very young. I thought first they were Cadets.
Tickets for Troops seems a good idea too.
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DradusContact
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Whats the answer then? I think we need to pull out, gradually if needed, and start thinking of ourselves as a small (though still powerful) island. We cant police the world, the empire and the navy that created it are both gone.
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Mark
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| Bob Sacramento wrote: | | If Afghanistan falls to the Taliban, Pakistan will follow. A nuclear armed Taliban - that'll keep us all on our toes! |
I can see your point - but, the taliban were in charge of Afghanistan and Pakistan was tooled up long before we got involved in 2001.
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Bob Sacramento
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| Mark wrote: | | Bob Sacramento wrote: | | If Afghanistan falls to the Taliban, Pakistan will follow. A nuclear armed Taliban - that'll keep us all on our toes! |
I can see your point - but, the taliban were in charge of Afghanistan and Pakistan was tooled up long before we got involved in 2001. |
Pakistan was indeed a nuclear power before 2001 but to pull all troops out of Afghanistan sends out a powerful message to the Taliban and their supporters in Pakistan i.e there is no power on Earth that can defeat them, they will have beaten the Soviets, the US, NATO and the British, Allah is with them and the Taliban in Pakistan will gain new strength from this knowledge. India will see growing instability in its neighbour and tensions may rise there leaving them to feel that if we can't sort it they may have to.
Much as we would like to think that this could never happen in Pakistan there are elements inside the Pakistani security services that are known to be sympathetic to the Fundamentalist cause.
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Grampa
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Re: Afganistan - what are we doing there? | DradusContact wrote: | | After reading the paper today it seems large parts of the police force we are traning are now corrupt, the latest result being 5 soldiers killed while having their dinner. |
One of them was a friend of my daughter's - not close any more, someone she had lost touch with, but closest Afganistan or Iraq has come to our family which highlights the pointlessness of it all.
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Mark
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| Bob Sacramento wrote: | | Mark wrote: | | Bob Sacramento wrote: | | If Afghanistan falls to the Taliban, Pakistan will follow. A nuclear armed Taliban - that'll keep us all on our toes! |
I can see your point - but, the taliban were in charge of Afghanistan and Pakistan was tooled up long before we got involved in 2001. |
Pakistan was indeed a nuclear power before 2001 but to pull all troops out of Afghanistan sends out a powerful message to the Taliban and their supporters in Pakistan i.e there is no power on Earth that can defeat them, they will have beaten the Soviets, the US, NATO and the British, Allah is with them and the Taliban in Pakistan will gain new strength from this knowledge. India will see growing instability in its neighbour and tensions may rise there leaving them to feel that if we can't sort it they may have to.
Much as we would like to think that this could never happen in Pakistan there are elements inside the Pakistani security services that are known to be sympathetic to the Fundamentalist cause. |
Agree. It's simply catch 22. The lunatics really are running the asylum.
There was an Afghan (living in the UK) on 5 Live yesterday morning trying to tell us that there was no proof that al qaeda had anything to do with 9/11/01.
I've got some work coming up in Pakistan - not looking forward to it.
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woof woof
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I think that a big part of the problem is that the extremists know that we are politically weak and that there is growing political opposition to our involvement. They know that there is a significant amount of anti American imperialism / we shouldn't be their poodle / it's nothing to do with us feeling. They also know that public opinion is wavering and will waver more as the body count continues. They know that they can't win a straight fight but they think (and possibly correctly) that if they can keep the body count rising we'll eventually cut and run.
The extremists are very clued up on western political feeling and public opinion. There was an interview on R5 a while ago with a journalist or politician, I forget which, who was in touch with various Taliban leaders and he was amazed that the Taliban were better clued up than he was. They knew everything. The fact that our guy was amazed amazes me and shows how naive we are. We don't seem to realise that they follow our media and political and public opinion. Our division and the frequent questioning of our involvement are noted and influences their tactics and as a result our troops are specifically targeted. It's a strategy which sadly is highly likely to succeed IMHO.
I think that it's all doomed to failure. We don't seem willing to send enough troops with good enough equipment to do the job and the mission is constantly questioned and criticised. I think what'll happen is we'll hand territory over to half trained army and police and run like the wind in a thinly disguised cut and run, like we did in Iraq. If that happens and if America does the same I fear we'll see carnage and mass abuse of human rights and we'll wring our hands and say how terrible it all is and blame Tony Blair and George Bush.
What it'll mean in the future I don't know, the west (excluding America) seems too weak to confront extremists and mass violators of human rights. As Bob says, maybe India will do something, maybe another nation. I thought after 9/11 that the world was in for a major war and I think that what we've seen since 9/11 and the very limited wars and war on terror are nothing to what could happen because we don't seem to want to accept that the extremists need to be stopped.
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Chris M Wants a V-10
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I believe that there were rumours that there were minerals to be found in Afghanistan. Rather than let the Russians invade first, the Yanks decided to go in and somehow they conned us that there was another, legitimate reason to invade (the war on terror).
Sad to think that this war has been going on longer than the Second World War now :-(
Totally pointless exercise at great loss of life. There are no winners in war
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Apex clipper
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| Mark wrote: |
There was an Afghan (living in the UK) on 5 Live yesterday morning trying to tell us that there was no proof that al qaeda had anything to do with 9/11/01.
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Was he incorrect?
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Apex clipper
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Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that the people we believe we can convert, to a western democracy are little more than tribal..and that's being polite.
How do you destroy a concept as deeply rooted as a religious indoctrination...simple answer is..you can't.
Not forgetting the very fact that the president of the USofA signs off his rabble rousing (For all the world too see) with those immortal words.
GOD PLEASE AMERICA. 
The soldiers were 'slotted' due to the infiltration of all government security services right from the grass roots all the way to the very top.
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Mark
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| Apex clipper wrote: | | Mark wrote: |
There was an Afghan (living in the UK) on 5 Live yesterday morning trying to tell us that there was no proof that al qaeda had anything to do with 9/11/01.
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Was he incorrect? |
I think so. Although, I guess your aiming at the word 'proof' there.
If it wasn't them, then who? I'm not bothered about getting into a Mossad/Bush dynasty conspiracy theory...
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Mark
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| Apex clipper wrote: | Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that the people we believe we can convert, to a western democracy are little more than tribal..and that's being polite.
How do you destroy a concept as deeply rooted as a religious indoctrination...simple answer is..you can't. |
My thoughts entirely.
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Frank Bullitt
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| Mark wrote: | | Apex clipper wrote: | Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that the people we believe we can convert, to a western democracy are little more than tribal..and that's being polite.
How do you destroy a concept as deeply rooted as a religious indoctrination...simple answer is..you can't. |
My thoughts entirely. |
Agreed.
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scamper
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Back to the OP apparently several others were badly injured in the shooting as well as the fatalities.
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Gooner
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I think the trouble is we're in far too deep to just pull out but we're now in a situation where we're trying to bring order and control to a nation that just doesn't want to help itself and appears rather ungrateful for our pathetic attempts at doing them a favour.
What really angers me is the fact that several of our soldiers lost their lives and many more were maimed trying to make the country safe for those who wished to vote in the presidential election only for it to be rigged and the country become ruled by someone who cheated their way into office. What was the point of our soldiers putting their lives on the line for a sham election?
But what is the solution? Can we really just pull out and hope that all is well? The trouble is we can't, just as America found in Vietnam. There is no solution and we can't make safe a country where many of the general population are willing to die for the fight against the west.
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'G'
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A local on the bus openly opined that we are there to kill 'Chocos' and 'Rag-heads' before they destroy anymore public buildings, trains and buses in the the western democracies.
"Well, what other reason would we deploy such weaponry?" he followed up in his assumptions
"Well defensive reasons, to support a police action wiv the Americans. Innit." a chap in his sport suit defended unaware he ruined his reasonable quote by saying 'innit' at the end of his sentence and mispronouncing 'with'.
"A Police action? In support of what?" argued a young chap in a duffel coat and surprisingly long beard on such a long face, without removing his IPod
"Quick! He's one of those Taliban!" screamed the passengers. The bus squealed to a halt. everybody leaped off in fear for their lives. The young bearded chap looked up from from his IPod.
"Has the bus broken down?" he asks without reply. "Heeelllllloooooo.... I'll bloody walk then." he petulently stamps unaware of the reaction to his moody response
Thus the Great British public displays it knowledge of World events.
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Boxer6
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| 'G' wrote: | A local on the bus openly opined that we are there to kill 'Chocos' and 'Rag-heads' before they destroy anymore public buildings, trains and buses in the the western democracies.
"Well, what other reason would we deploy such weaponry?" he followed up in his assumptions
"Well defensive reasons, to support a police action wiv the Americans. Innit." a chap in his sport suit defended unaware he ruined his reasonable quote by saying 'innit' at the end of his sentence and mispronouncing 'with'.
"A Police action? In support of what?" argued a young chap in a duffel coat and surprisingly long beard on such a long face, without removing his IPod
"Quick! He's one of those Taliban!" screamed the passengers. The bus squealed to a halt. everybody leaped off in fear for their lives. The young bearded chap looked up from from his IPod.
"Has the bus broken down?" he asks without reply. "Heeelllllloooooo.... I'll bloody walk then." he petulently stamps unaware of the reaction to his moody response
Thus the Great British public displays it knowledge of World events. |
Still light-years ahead of the average Murcan, I'll wager.
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'G'
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Oh, everyone picks on the Murcans, but they're awfully nice chaps, really.
And they have a nice flag and say, 'Have a nice day' even when they don't mean it, but never tell you to 'Fuck off' and mean it.
Which is nice.
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Mark
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What's a Murcan?
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Boxer6
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| Mark wrote: | | What's a Murcan? |
Wee hint......
"Oh say can you see-e-e....
by the dawn's early li-i-ight....."
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'G'
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Hey yeah!! Lets hear it for Uncle Sam!
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Boxer6
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| 'G' wrote: | | Hey yeah!! Lets hear it for Uncle Sam! |
   
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DB
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I just think that much of the opposition to war comes from an over-simplistic viewpoint. The only people who really know the threat to the UK and therefore why we are there, are the security services and the government. To a degree our presence in Afghanistan and Iraq are classic cases of the ‘horse has already bolted’. If we knew that we could have prevented Sept 11th by going in sooner, would there be so much opposition?
The loss of life is clearly tragic, but these are professional soldiers many of whom would actually want to see active duty during their service – it is what they trained for. Whilst not trying to belittle their sacrifice, how many young men/women are killed on the roads every year? Dying at the side of the road is far more of a waste of life, than soldiers who give their life to save many others – this is what is boils down to.
I actually think it is hugely disrespectful to those serving that there is so much opposition to the war at home. These soldiers need their whole nation behind them.
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DradusContact
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| DB wrote: | | I actually think it is hugely disrespectful to those serving that there is so much opposition to the war at home. These soldiers need their whole nation behind them. |
I dont agree with that. I think the support for our troops is huge, the reception they get on the return to the UK is massive and they get constant attention in the the paper. Alright, so its mostly deaths but regardless they are not being forgotten. There seemed a time about 12-24 months after the initial invasion when casualty reports would be get a brief mention on the news, the last piece before the weather or something.
The mirror had at least one front page headline on them last week, mainly deaths again but its helping keep them in the public eye.
What i would like to see actually is some of the tales of what theyre doing, any objectives they achieve etc
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Scouse
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| DradusContact wrote: | | DB wrote: | | I actually think it is hugely disrespectful to those serving that there is so much opposition to the war at home. These soldiers need their whole nation behind them. |
I dont agree with that. I think the support for our troops is huge, the reception they get on the return to the UK is massive and they get constant attention in the the paper. Alright, so its mostly deaths but regardless they are not being forgotten. There seemed a time about 12-24 months after the initial invasion when casualty reports would be get a brief mention on the news, the last piece before the weather or something.
The mirror had at least one front page headline on them last week, mainly deaths again but its helping keep them in the public eye.
What i would like to see actually is some of the tales of what theyre doing, any objectives they achieve etc |
The general support for the troops by the public is huge, but the attention they get in the paper is mostly negative and just a stick to beat Gordon Brown & his incompetent government with.
One thing I would like to see is the media giving less support or coverage to the 'stop the war' groups and more coverage to the actual work of (re)-construction being carried out by the troops.
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scamper
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[quote="DradusContact"] | DB wrote: | | Alright, so its mostly deaths but regardless they are not being forgotten. There seemed a time about 12-24 months after the initial invasion when casualty reports would be get a brief mention on the news, the last piece before the weather or something. |
Interesting one DC. I sometimes got that impression during the latter stages of the opperations in the Iraq operations (and the negative reporting in general), while now the BBC in particular are now more robust in reporting losses.
I notice still, that when deaths are announced no mention of the x seriously injured is made from the same engagement. In many cases its only due to the quick thinking and training of their buddies next to them in giving treatment, that the number of fatalities isn't higher.
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DB
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I think that it is dead right that the coverage of war seems to focus on the casualties which just gives the anti-warists all the amunition (sorry!) they need. The coverage should absolutely cover the casualties, but as DC says we should be told about the successes.
I also don't doubt the overwhelming support in the country for the armed forces, but I think the support has to exist for the cause as well as the soldiers. 'You are doing a great job, but the the mission is pointless/not our problem/policitcally motivated/unwinnable', I don't think is very supportive.
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woof woof
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It does seem odd that the good work being done receives next to no publicity. I don't know why this is the case other than that it's possibly because doing good doesn't fit with the liberal anti war and anti intervention point of view.
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TimR
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| Boxer6 wrote: | | Mark wrote: | | What's a Murcan? |
Wee hint......
"Oh say can you see-e-e....
by the dawn's early li-i-ight....." |
I read/heard somewhere that a Murcan is a pubic wig 
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Big TC
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| Mark wrote: | | What's a Murcan? |
Someone who lives in Murca
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TimR
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| Big TC wrote: | | Mark wrote: | | What's a Murcan? |
Someone who lives in Murca |
Where George W Bush was waging a war on 'Tourism'.
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DradusContact
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| woof woof wrote: | | It does seem odd that the good work being done receives next to no publicity. I don't know why this is the case other than that it's possibly because doing good doesn't fit with the liberal anti war and anti intervention point of view. |
Maybe its that simply, there is very little being gained? I dont know. I certainly hope not. But as the old addage goes its easier to destroy than create. They might spend 6 months protecting a building site or something only for it to be blown up 5 minutes after they stop guarding it.
I read a story once, -a good year ago at least- from a soldier who had helped protect a convoy that had the turbines for a hydro-electric plant. They drove them halfway across the country, installed them, and they now provide essentially free power to locals. Thats the kind of story i want to read about.
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TimR
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| DradusContact wrote: | | woof woof wrote: | | It does seem odd that the good work being done receives next to no publicity. I don't know why this is the case other than that it's possibly because doing good doesn't fit with the liberal anti war and anti intervention point of view. |
Maybe its that simply, there is very little being gained? I dont know. I certainly hope not. But as the old addage goes its easier to destroy than create. They might spend 6 months protecting a building site or something only for it to be blown up 5 minutes after they stop guarding it.
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I think the reason good work is heard of so little is that the modern media realy doesn't want to report nice stuff.
For example Gordon Brown is writing to every family who suffer a loss.
At what point did our beloved media report this?
When there was something negative to be said about it.
That seems to be the stance taken by the general media about most stories IMO.
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PG
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I've read a few of the biographies and books on Afghanistan recently. The thing that comes out of the Afghan ones is that it across that very little is actually being achieved in a long term way.
When ground is won from the Taliban, there are not enough troops to hold it. And if the Afghan army or police are asked to hold it they soon lose it or need help to hold it. so the actions seems to consist of what was described as "advance to ambush" in typical black military humour. Our troops advance into Taliban country. They get hit by IED's or they get ambushed. If ambushed they fight the Taliban off and then withdraw. Then do the same another day. The army people seem absolutely scathing about the government funded aid agencies that sit in Kabul with the billions of redevelopment money doing f*ck all, as they claim it is too dangerous to go "in country". Like the UN pulling back to fortress Kabul after the recent killings.
If we are going to be in Afghanistan, then we need to be their fully and seriously, in strength. Then we can properly hold ground and carry out rebuilding. Otherwise we are just fighting a low level campaign of attrition which costs lives and is unlikely to achieve any real success.
The US surge in Iraq was hugely unpopular with many people but it did seem to hit the insurgents much harder. And looking back at Vietnam, the US only had success there when they went at it hard - eg bombing North Vietnam to cut supply lines for the Viet-Cong. When they tried to "scale back" they lost.
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Apex clipper
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| DB wrote: | Dying at the side of the road is far more of a waste of life, than soldiers who give their life to save many others – this is what is boils down to.
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No it isn't. We're just there too support the empire building antics of America and the whims of the political elite that gain from arms sales and the extraction of mineral wealth.
We entered Iraqi..on a sham dossier and we'll leave Afghanstan having only done half the job.
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