The Motor Forum

DaveGibson · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject: That'll be £1002 please

Apparently, if you just walk up to the rail station in Newquay and ask for a first-class return to Kyle of Lochalsh, in Scotland, it'll cost £1002. For parts of the journey there aren't even any first-class seats on the train.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8340561.stm

In comparison, taking a plane from Newquay to Stornoway (nearest Scottish airport I could think of) would still be £424 economy.

simonp · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject:

It costs £222 just to go to Paddington from my local station in First. That's only a 3 hour round trip!

Stuntman · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:49 pm Post subject:

I find it completely unacceptable how opaque the pricing structure of rail tickets is, and how much it penalises what should be a perfectly reasonable transaction - i.e. turn up at the railway station on the day of travel and purchase a ticket at the ticket office.

Massive discounts if you book a long time in advance? Completely unfair on those who purchase exactly the same product in person on the day.

No wonder people don't use the trains as much as could be the case if the pricing structure wasn't as bonkers.
_________________
Drifting through life

DaveGibson · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:12 am Post subject:

Low cost airlines do operate on a similar principle, Dan.

Roadsterstu · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:22 am Post subject:

TimR · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:13 am Post subject:

Last time I got a train was from Gatwick to Edinburgh due to air traffic control problems so it wasn't booked in advance.

Cost £181 one-way.

Return trip would've cost me £182

Pkh72 · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:14 am Post subject:

This train fare is for the worst possible scenerio though isn't it, usually you'd buy an advance ticket, i can't imagine many people wanting to do the journey by train in the first place.

Just to show that train fares aren't always bad - the good lady wife and myself are going to London for the weekend this weekend, travelling from derby. The fair is a total of £48, thats for two people, return.
_________________
Nothing to see here

Bryan M · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:35 am Post subject:

Try it on a week day, standard class from Nottingham to London return is £131 - no guarantee of a seat either. Plus £9 for parking at the station

Pkh72 · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:52 am Post subject:

DradusContact · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:17 am Post subject:

Its embarrasing when you consider we gave the world the bloody train.
_________________

Roadsterstu · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:51 am Post subject:

Pkh72 · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:08 am Post subject:

Big Blue · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:25 am Post subject:

As a senior employee of the biggest player in the industry, let me explain.......

.....sorry, can't.

Seriously: the trains you catch are privately operated by Train Operating Companies (TOCs) therefore have a business model to run to. That business model consists, in the main, of:

Paying Network Rail (NR) for access to the tracks, sidings etc.
Paying Rolling Stock Companies (RoSCos) to lease trains
Paying operational costs for staff, non-rail buildings (offices, training centres), train maintenance etc.
Delivering a dividend / profit / loss

All this on a franchise of possibly only 7 years. During that 7 years the RoSCos (owned by and subsidiaries of banks) will recover the entire capital cost of the trains which are designed to be in service for 25 years; NR will amend the access costs and that will include a Control Period change (CPs are 5 years and everything is up for grabs); the governement will cap the bulk of ticket sales rises (peak time season tickets) and passengers will not use the trains as predicted; skive off paying more than predicted etc. etc.

Basically the issue in not having the trains owned by an operating company (NR or a TOC) and the tracks not being allowed to run a service (NR are forbidden to run scheduled services as they'd just undercut everyone at franchise change time) and short-term franchising is crippling the industry in terms of operational efficiency. First to go must be the RoSCos. They are wholly private, do not receive grants and therefore are not subject to EU competition procurement rules for transportation. This means they buy trains from whoever pleasures them (F1, Wimbledon, Olympics, Glyndebourne etc etc) the most and simply pass on the cost for buying a Javelin train from the not-quite-the-most-efficient source to the TOC in the lease. Trains should be procured by a QUANGO under EU rules with lease recovery over the life of the vehicle not in as short a time as possible to maximise profit in the latter years.

Next should be the Operational aspect of NR passed to the TOC (or more realistically a new regional entity formed from the TOC and the NR route operations division). They can start with what are currently the most efficient and "closedshop" routes, like SWT and c2c.

When they've done that they can transfer the lease responsibility of the trains to these regional companies who will naturally want to spread the lease cost over the entire life of the vehicle.

NR can retain maintenance and planned maintenance can be an operational expense to the regional operators; minor capital upgrades (outlying stations, bridges and viaducts etc.) can be the regional companies' responsibility using an annualised grant system based on scheduled requirements (pretty much what NR have to do now); NR can retain a core emergency operation for incident recovery within it's maintenance remit and major projects (route upgrades, major station rebuilds and new infrastructure provision) can be carried out by a totally seperate entity operating under the eye of the DfT with parliamentary powers granted to stop the stupid in-fighting with the operational railway that we have now. that entity can then go to market to get the work carried out by whoever is best: Bechtel / Balfour Beatty.

I will of course be made redundant or have to apply for my own job within the new company building infrastructure butthe railways would be a fuck sight better.
_________________
Call the fire brigade, call the firebrigade......

I said FireBRIGADE......

Pkh72 · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:31 am Post subject:

I have a grasp of the basics, but not in the kind of depths as you do.
I work for Serco who run the test trains for Network rail.
_________________
Nothing to see here

scamper · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:48 am Post subject:

Jesus. For not much more than £1000 i spent 3 weeks travelling around Vietnam and Thailand. Including flights.

Bryan M · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:48 am Post subject:

Pkh - A mate of mine works for Serco Rail - he's in construction part I think

Mark · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject:

I don't give a toss about the whys and wherefores - the general system is shit and shouldn't be.

I was in Argyll last week and the train fare to get there would have cost over £250 from where I live in Yorkshire to Helensburgh return - not first class. Flying was cheaper, although only to Glasgow, of course. And, driving is way cheaper - and still quicker than the train!

Long distance rail travel in the UK = wank.

Pkh72 · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject:

Scouse · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject:

PG · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject:

So, based on bb's excellent write up, the railways are basically run for the short term profit benefit of the banks. Great, Just fu**ing great.

It's just like a huge PFI ponzi scheme.

Big Blue · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:45 pm Post subject:

I'm sure if you had access to the figures and did the maths that peak time commuter rail travel should be free. The industry is so subsidised by the taxpayer that those using the railway to get to and from work and pay tax should just not need to pay.

However based on that argument anyone going to work by car should get free petrol so they won't allow it.
_________________
Call the fire brigade, call the firebrigade......

I said FireBRIGADE......

Bryan M · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject:

Pkh - have sent you a PM

Pkh72 · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject:

Just replied Bryan.
_________________
Nothing to see here

Matt · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject:

I enjoy train travel, but the prices are ridiculous for a shared environment.
_________________

Small car, big heart.

Chris M Wants a V-10 · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:45 pm Post subject:

Stuntman · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:53 pm Post subject:

That's definitely mad!

Reading BB's post helps makes sense of it: the business model seems all to cock, and the consumer gets fleeced in order to line the pockets of the providers of the infrastructure rather than the franchise holders.

I'm no socialist, but the case for full renationalisation seems compelling!
_________________
Drifting through life

Roadsterstu · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:13 am Post subject:

Mrs Skyhook · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject: