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Ready for the winter
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Martin
Nuclear

My Car: BMW 535d M Sport & Boxster 987.2

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 14425


Location: Higham Ferrers

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:12 pm    Post subject: Ready for the winter  Reply with quote

It was very cold this morning, but with everything that's been going on, it was my first opportunity to swap the wheels over. †Not the quickest of jobs, especially as I had the clean the summers and grease (aluminium paste) all the wheel nuts on the Boxster! †I had a bit of help (passing me tools!) with the Boxster, but then Lindsay had to go out so I did the 535d and cleaned/tidied all on my own.

This is as much car maintenance as I want to do!

I'm sure most will prefer the Boxster on the 18" Cayman S II wheels in silver, but I dont. It just doesn't look as special, but I'm sure I'll be able to live with it over the winter and its will keep the proper wheels looking at their best.  I do prefer the Cayman S wheels to the Boxster S ones though and did have a choice.  You could specify either as an option on the car when it was new.

The winters are slightly narrower than the summers (255 rear vs 265 and 235 front vs 245) and they are Michelin Pilot Alpin tyres.





The front wheels all clean and ready for storage. †I'll get then out at some point to clean a couple of tar spots off and give them some coats of protective wax.



The 535d on its (pre LCI) standard 18" M Sport wheels. †I wasn't a huge fan of this style of wheel, but they're quite interesting when you look at them up close and I prefer them to SE wheels, which is all that BMW offer you and mainly what's available on ebay. †

They're the same width as the summers (245 all round), but 45 rather than 40 profile and they are Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D (run flats).

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PR
Twin-charged

My Car: cent trente

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Boxster looks not too bad at all on its winter wheels, whereas the BMW is definitely takes an aesthetic knock on it's smaller alloys. My winter alloys are in an awful state. They had some chips and kerb marks when I bought them and the paint is now bubbling and flaking off in places. It would cost me as much to get them refurbed as it cost me to buy them in the first place...
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gooner
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My Car: Insignia low tax special and Fiat Panda Eleganza

Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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Location: here, there and every bloody where!

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with Piers on the 5 but have to agree with Martin on the Boxster, the black wheels look more special, though the silver wheels don't look at all bad, just much more standard rather than optional.

I started the Jetta this morning and had an oil light come on. A quick check found it had no oil. I didn't dare drive it further before wondering round to the BP garage for a litre of Castrol Edge. It sounded like a completely different car. I'm amazed the engine isn't damaged. That's as much maintenance as I'm interested in doing on a car with just a month left on its lease! Shame as I'm starting to quite like it.
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Chip Butty
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My Car: 2016 Disco 4 + 2004 S-type R

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Yup - I am ready for winter too  
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Martin
Nuclear

My Car: BMW 535d M Sport & Boxster 987.2

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 14425


Location: Higham Ferrers

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, by far the best solution and that's what I'd do for work whatever the tyres! †

However, it's not going to help me see my kids if (I know it's a big if) we get really bad weather and it won't give me extra safety when it not quite as bad.

I'd have thought your answer was having a Discovery parked on the drive?!
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Chip Butty
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In all my years in the Midlands, I've only ever been caught out by the snow once - and when I say caught out, I mean got another hour or two in bed before trooping off to work in the afternoon when the roads had been cleared.

The issue is not one of traction - because even in a winter tyred Discovery, if some wally in front of you is stuck, you ain't going anywhere.

Besides, we get given a pack of snow socks with every Jag - never used them mind, but I assume I could use them to barter for some hot tea and biscuits if I ever got massively stuck.

I would welcome a legislative move to mandatory winter tyres between October and March - but only on the proviso that the councils stop slinging salty crap all over the roads. That stuff ruins cars and is a royal PITA to clean off.
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2010 XF 5.0 V8 S
1995 XJ6 3.2 auto
2008 S60 D5 185
2006 Focus ST 2.5
2001 BMW 520i
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Roadsterstu
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My Car: threelitreturbosixallwheeldrive

Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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Location: Over there.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to give Martin nightmares, I will disclose that I didn't do anything with my alloys before stacking them in the corner of the garage. I might, funds allowing, get a cheap refurb done on them.
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Martin
Nuclear

My Car: BMW 535d M Sport & Boxster 987.2

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 14425


Location: Higham Ferrers

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume you at least gave them a quick wash / wipe over with a dirty rag before remving them?

One of the BMW wheels has thrown a weight this morning, not a great start.  It was fine yesterday and most of the way to work, but there's a vibration which is most noticable around 40-45mph.  But the biggest issue is the tyre pressure sensors.  I didn't realise that it would have sensors that give you the exact pressure in each tyres, which BMW started to fit as standard from March build.  These sensors aren't fitted to the older winter wheels, so I'm getting an error message.
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Tim
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had winter tyres on the 320 since early November and it's finally got cold enough for them to be worthwhile.
They appear to be very good at picking up dirt, the car is almost black below the beltline and on the tailgate.
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simonp
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My Car: is silver again

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just done mine. Pictures to follow once I've been for a spin to bed in the springs again, as the car looks like a 4x4 at the moment.
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PG
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My Car: Jaaaag XFR; Shogun "truck"; Peugeot horse "van"

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
But the biggest issue is the tyre pressure sensors. †I didn't realise that it would have sensors that give you the exact pressure in each tyres, which BMW started to fit as standard from March build. †These sensors aren't fitted to the older winter wheels, so I'm getting an error message.


If they are like the Jag ones, the sensors are special valves. So you need to have BMW TPMS valves fitted to the winter tyres. I have the valves on both sets of alloys for the XF and have had no trouble swapping the wheels over. The system recognises the other valves straight away.
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Martin
Nuclear

My Car: BMW 535d M Sport & Boxster 987.2

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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Location: Higham Ferrers

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had a chat with the garage and the old valves that just report on a drop in pressure (as fitted to all BMWs for years) aren't compatible with the new system that measures individual pressures. † I asked for a price for the new style valves and apparently they won't fit wheels manufacturered before this year, because they're bigger!

Their advice is to ignore the warning light and it will all be OK when the summers go back on....
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Bob Sacamano
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My Car: BMW 320d M Sport Auto

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OCD in me would find a warning lamp permanently illuminated infuriating.
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Roadsterstu
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My Car: threelitreturbosixallwheeldrive

Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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Location: Over there.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
I assume you at least gave them a quick wash / wipe over with a dirty rag before remving them?

One of the BMW wheels has thrown a weight this morning, not a great start. †It was fine yesterday and most of the way to work, but there's a vibration which is most noticable around 40-45mph. †But the biggest issue is the tyre pressure sensors. †I didn't realise that it would have sensors that give you the exact pressure in each tyres, which BMW started to fit as standard from March build. †These sensors aren't fitted to the older winter wheels, so I'm getting an error message.


Nope!
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Martin
Nuclear

My Car: BMW 535d M Sport & Boxster 987.2

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 14425


Location: Higham Ferrers

PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Sacamano wrote:
The OCD in me would find a warning lamp permanently illuminated infuriating.


Me too. †

It helps (a little) that it's a very small amber light and in normal operation there are (green) lights for Auto Hold and Auto High Beam, so it's not alone.
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gooner
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
The OCD in me would find a warning lamp permanently illuminated infuriating.


Me too. †

It helps (a little) that it's a very small amber light and in normal operation there are (green) lights for Auto Hold and Auto High Beam, so it's not alone.


In the old days you could solve the problem by just taking out the bulb!
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Racing Teatray
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chip Butty wrote:


Yup - I am ready for winter too †


Terrible things - either they add to the bulk of your keys or you never have it when you need it. We just ditched them in favour of an app uploaded to each employee's blackberry/smart phone.
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simonp
Supercharged

My Car: is silver again

Joined: 14 Aug 2007
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Location: Wiltshire

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simonp wrote:
Just done mine. Pictures to follow once I've been for a spin to bed in the springs again, as the car looks like a DS4 at the moment.


FMP. Looking a little better now. Amazed at how much more compliant, quieter and grippy it is. I reckon the Cupra suspension setting may actually be usable on 18" wheels!



Last edited by simonp on Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Martin
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My Car: BMW 535d M Sport & Boxster 987.2

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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Location: Higham Ferrers

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wheels suit the car.

I've not noticed any of the differences you mention, maybe because they were pret good anyway?  The steering feels a bit lighter if you're pushing on a bit which I don't like, but that's solved by switching to Sport Mode.
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Frank Bullitt
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hankook's being ordered tomorrow - £160 a corner, they'll only be on for four months so I reckon a set could last the life of the car.
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Martin
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My Car: BMW 535d M Sport & Boxster 987.2

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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Location: Higham Ferrers

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not the tyre that finished last in the latest Autoexpress test is it?
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Frank Bullitt
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Icept RS came 8th out of ten but the only manufacturers that do the DS4's are these and the Yokohama winter drive tyres.

The Hankook's have a very high customer satisfaction rating.
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Martin
Nuclear

My Car: BMW 535d M Sport & Boxster 987.2

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 14425


Location: Higham Ferrers

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These aren't fitted prices, but assuming I've got the size right, there are more than 2 options.

http://lovetyres.com/search/tyres/225-45-18/season/Winter
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Chip Butty
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My Car: 2016 Disco 4 + 2004 S-type R

Joined: 30 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Terrible things - either they add to the bulk of your keys or you never have it when you need it. We just ditched them in favour of an app uploaded to each employee's blackberry/smart phone.


I have an RSA smart token now - but they aren't as photogenic.
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2016 XF S
2015 Focus ST3
XF diesel S Portfolios (12, 13, 13.5 & 15my)
2012 XF 5.0 V8S
2011 XJ 3.0D (SWB)
2011 XKR Coupe
2010 XF 5.0 V8 S
1995 XJ6 3.2 auto
2008 S60 D5 185
2006 Focus ST 2.5
2001 BMW 520i
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PG
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My Car: Jaaaag XFR; Shogun "truck"; Peugeot horse "van"

Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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Location: Shropshire

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gooner wrote:
Martin wrote:
Bob Sacamano wrote:
The OCD in me would find a warning lamp permanently illuminated infuriating.


Me too. †

It helps (a little) that it's a very small amber light and in normal operation there are (green) lights for Auto Hold and Auto High Beam, so it's not alone.


In the old days you could solve the problem by just taking out the bulb!


Or a little bit of plastic electrical tape over the light should solve the issue.  
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Martin
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Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Holding the wheel at 10mins to the hour rather than 15mins has the same effect!
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Frank Bullitt
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
These aren't fitted prices, but assuming I've got the size right, there are more than 2 options.

http://lovetyres.com/search/tyres/225-45-18/season/Winter


Eye, that's the right size and there are some more choices (all have higher load ratings for some reason) - I'll have a look at them
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Martin
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's good to have a choice, even if you end up going back to your first decision!
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Racing Teatray
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THe M135i was collected this morning for its winter footwear change.

First time I've been stood behind it in our kitchen doorway as it's fired up on a cold winter morning.

Bloody hell it's loud for the first minute or so until the revs drop.

Interestingly, on start up it visibly only uses the RH exhaust tip and only when the initial revs and noise dies away do you here an audible switch click somewhere and the second LH pipe joins in and starts also chuffing exhaust gases out.
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Frank Bullitt
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decided not to bother with winter rubber in the end; had a look around the car on Friday and realised the front nearside was close to the 1.6mm level (DS4's wear more heavily on the outside shoulder) and that the rear tyres, at close to 3mm, also need replacing so I went for four Michelin Pilot Sport 3's at just under £600.

A local tyre place, STS Tyre Pros, which I have used before had a '25% off' voucher in the local paper so I did an online check which came back at just under £610 - bonza I thought so rang the shop up; they quoted £800-ish with the discount, when I queried it they said 'oh, the website is a different company and their prices are always wrong so they are going to turn it off'. So you are going to turn off the website which has prices comparable to the rest of the world and carry on convincing people a £600 set of tyres was £1050 but your doing a favour at over £800? Good luck with that.

Went for Blackcircles who have a great service, great price and the place around the corner from work that's on their list is excellent.
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Martin
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My Car: BMW 535d M Sport & Boxster 987.2

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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Location: Higham Ferrers

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My road was completely white this morning and I had to go back around and through the garage to get to the car because it was too icy to walk down the slope to my drive.  No issues (or TC light) getting the car up that section or the hill that follows and it took full throttle on a damp MK road when it was still -2c, the traction is very impressive.  I still drive like I would if I was on summers, but it's good to know there's a much bigger safety margin.

What I don't like is the noise on certain roads and the reduction in steering feel, which is horrible when the temperature is in double figures, it's like driving an Audi!
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Mark
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My Car: BMW 320d M Sport Coupe

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Coupe went onto its new Winter setup on Saturday - from a 19" staggered Summer setup to 17" 225's at each corner.

It looks rather anemic on the 17"s, but the tyres have been fantastic in the snow and ice and I've been able to get to places that I would never have dared to attempt to go before in the bad snow we've had in Yorkshire.

Take snow out of the equation though, and I really don't think it gets cold enough for long enough in the UK to justify the change for most people.



The car is filthy (apart from the wheels), but I really shouldn't freeze the lane further for my neighbours - which is what I inadvertently did when I cleaned my Summer wheels down before storing them  

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Dr. Hfuhruhurr
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That looks great even on the smaller wheels - the E9x coupe was a really attractive car.
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simonp
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. The E92 has a nice stance and the smaller wheels still fill the arches nicely.
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Mark
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks chaps - much appreciated.
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Roadsterstu
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
What I don't like is the noise on certain roads and the reduction in steering feel, which is horrible when the temperature is in double figures, it's like driving an Audi!


Yep, same with my winters.  There is quite a difference between the temp at, say, 10 degrees and the temp at zero degrees.  What I have noticed is just how much more drippy they are on the thickly frosted estate roads.  Out in the X1 at work last night and it was all over the place on its summer tyres - it felt like it was constantly floating, even at very very low speeds and it even had a sideways moment at about 4mph.  The V50, on the winters, felt almost as planted as on a dry road in similar driving, around the estate.
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Dr. Hfuhruhurr
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was driving over some suburban minor roads on NYE. They hadn't been cleared, so snow with ruts from previous drivers, sometimes over cobbles. Needless to say, with 4wd and winter tyres, the car was not troubled at all. Ride is softer too, as you'd expect.
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Martin
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both cars have dropped from 19" to 18" wheels, but the ride hasn't improved at all, I'd say it was worse on some road surfaces.

What size are the winter wheels on the countryman?
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Alf McQueef
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't notice any drop-off in performance at higher temperatures (beyond the obvious caveat that they obviously don't perform like a summer tyre in those conditions) on my Nokian WRA3's - and they are at least as quiet as, and probably more economical than, the Goodyear summers.

I think with my next car I would be tempted to play a waiting game with winter tyres and see what the winters are like - though that is a sure fire way to pay through the nose at the last minute. Even down south the winter of 07/08 saw protracted temperatures well below freezing - for weeks - but not much snow, then the next three winters saw exceptional amounts of snow - arriving heavily in December each time and again with weeks below freezing, which caught the gritters completely by surprise (in 08/9 and 09/10 our small suburban road was snowed under for weeks and impassable to summer tyres). That swung my opinion towards winter tyres.

Now I use them because I have them, they are superior all winter and give great peace of mind on frost and ice - which we all see plenty of - but they are not necessary in recent winters. Not down here. I do think that thing about summer tyres wearing excessively in the winter is true, my summers last longer now (even taking into account the time they are not on the car) and Nokian winters seem to last for 5+ winters too - so over time costs are minimal.

I see the doomsday nonsense of that exacta weather tool is all cack again - in fact amusingly I found this page dedicated to showing what bollocks his stuff all is:

www.exactaweather.co.uk
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Martin
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've not had the 535d long enough really to know whether economy is better or worse or have any idea on tyre wear.  

The Boxster is doing better, it was doing 28-29 consistently before the change and is now doing 30-31.   I'm hoping tyre wear is a lot less as well, because it chewed through its rears (they were bang on 1.6mm when I changed to the winters) in 8,000 miles....
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TreVoR
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't noticed any difference in economy since running on the A/Ts but the ride is harsher and there is more noise despite there being more sidewall.

I will run them all year round but will keep the original wheels for the moment as I really want to get the current ones refurbished as they are pretty scabby!
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Roadrunner
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Benz has improved its MPG from about 34 to 36 since going onto the Winters.
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DetmoldDick
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Location: Detmold, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is all this fuel saving down to the compound/tread pattern/pofile/width etc of the winter tyres or are they a slightly different circumference?
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simonp
Supercharged

My Car: is silver again

Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 7063


Location: Wiltshire

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say my fuel economy has improved slightly. Had a horrible drive in last night and home this morning. It was about 7 degrees, but there was no grip at all and a lot of roads had been given a coating of mud by tossers in tractors just to add to the fun.
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PhilD
Nuclear

My Car: Fiat Grande Punto Sporting

Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 15807



PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DetmoldDick wrote:
Is all this fuel saving down to the compound/tread pattern/pofile/width etc of the winter tyres or are they a slightly different circumference?


or by a more cautious use of the throttle?
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Stuntman
Twin-charged

My Car: M3 Saloon, Cayman S and GT4

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 8046


Location: Cheltenham

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:

The Boxster is doing better, it was doing 28-29 consistently before the change and is now doing 30-31. † I'm hoping tyre wear is a lot less as well, because it chewed through its rears (they were bang on 1.6mm when I changed to the winters) in 8,000 miles....


Gosh, that's pretty poor.  The Cayman managed 11,000 between rear tyre changes when I was doing the occasional trackday in it, and about 17,000 miles when I don't.
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Dr. Hfuhruhurr
Propellorhead

My Car: Mini Countryman Cooper S All4

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 15518


Location: Europa

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
Both cars have dropped from 19" to 18" wheels, but the ride hasn't improved at all, I'd say it was worse on some road surfaces.

What size are the winter wheels on the countryman?

16" steelies
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Martin
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My Car: BMW 535d M Sport & Boxster 987.2

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 14425


Location: Higham Ferrers

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stuntman wrote:
Martin wrote:

The Boxster is doing better, it was doing 28-29 consistently before the change and is now doing 30-31. † I'm hoping tyre wear is a lot less as well, because it chewed through its rears (they were bang on 1.6mm when I changed to the winters) in 8,000 miles....


Gosh, that's pretty poor. †The Cayman managed 11,000 between rear tyre changes when I was doing the occasional trackday in it, and about 17,000 miles when I don't.


It is! †With running winter wheels, it means they will have lasted 12 months, which makes it a bit less painful......

The P Zeros are really soft, they look like F1 tyres after the race when it's parked on the drive! †I'll need to get exactly the same again to preserve the warranty, but who knows whether another brand would be any better and they're great tyres otherwise, both in the wet and dry.
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Martin
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My Car: BMW 535d M Sport & Boxster 987.2

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
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Location: Higham Ferrers

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just ordered two tyres for the BMW, as they were a used set (refurbished wheels) and I'd put the worst two on the back.  They have about 3mm of tread, which I understand is the limit for winters.  I've ordered them now because most of the places I'd previously got prices from were either out of stock or had bumped the price up from £190ish to £250+!  I've got these for £187 each fitted.  

I'd rather get them changed before they're on the car, so I can remove the residue from the old weights and clean/polish them first.  The fronts have about 6mm of tread, so plenty of life left
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PR
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My Car: cent trente

Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 8470



PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need to think about the logistics of swapping mine. The trouble is that the winters are sitting in the in laws' garage, where they have been since I bought them from Jonny, because Dan Jackson has run out of storage space. I might have to make alternative arrangements...

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